Who's Right Regarding Our Corners?

[tonyto3690]

Remember when we thought Butler, McCourty, Dowling etc. were all going to be great after their rookie seasons and were horrible their sophomore seasons? Yeah, assuming Dennard is going to be great is a leap of faith I'm not sure I want to take. Teams didn't have any tape on him starting the second half of the season and teams adjust.

I'm not saying he's guaranteed going to be bad, but along with him being still an unknown after half a season of play, along with all of his crime issues distracting him, plus the near guarantee Talib is going to miss time, I definitely want to have more insurance there.

Moving McCourty to CB in that case would be fine, but if that happens I sure as heck want someone besides Gregory and Wilson defending the deep pass. While I"m not high on either of them, nor Tavon Wilson, it's a lot harder to draft a rookie starting safety as opposed to a rookie starting CB. Vacarroo is the only draft prospect who can be a day one starter but there are many other guys who could do that at CB.

 

[Fencer]

At safety we have McCourty, Wilson, Wilson, Gregory, and Ebner. That's probably fine, but I don't think we'd be happy standing pat there if McCourty moved to CB even temporarily. Hence, I don't think McCourty is an important consideration in assessing CB needs.

We have three outside corners who've played well -- Dowling for a couple of games, Talib for a number of games, and Dennard ditto. Two are injury-prone, one's on a one-year contract, one has character concerns, another is facing jail time, one is under-sized, and two are so new in the league that it's conceivable somebody could see something about them on film that enables them to be more easily dealt with.

Yeah, I'd like to see another corner in the mix.

 

[tonyto3690]

i think if we trade down to the mid second we could snag jamar taylor or if we use our original 2nd round pick taylor might still be there but also slay could be an option and bww

I think the only way we get Taylor is if we pick him with our first, and I'd rather trade back. Slay would be a nice late second round pick.

I was very pleased with Dennard and Talib when they were in there. There was a noticeable difference when they were not in there together. They were lights-out against the Texans, even with Andre Johnson. If anything, I'd say Safety over CB for draft needs. I'll be curious if McCourty puts on some bulk to play safety this year. Gregory is average at best. And I'm crossing my fingers on the Wilson's playing well.

DT is #1 to me for the draft. Then WR. Those are the ideal top two picks for me.

AJ had 8 catches in both games, one for 95 yards another for 98. Talib did not do nearly as good a job on him as the idiot color commentators would like. The difference was he wasn't routinely destroyed deep for 40 yard gains like Arrington was as an outside CB.

Talib was a decent player for us last year but he was just above average. It's just we have been so used to dreadfully, hilariously, pathetically bad play out of everyone besides McCourty in the secondary that it seemed good.

Also on top of that Arrington was brilliant in the slot which helped tremendously as he went from horrible outside to elite in the slot.

We need a CB. Talib is injury prone, overrated, old, and on a one year deal. Dennard is really still an unproven product.

 

[Brady2Moss]

Teams do not plan for injuries therefore option 1

Kidding aside option 2 for sure.

Team should have tried securing Nnamdi or someone else for a cheap 1 year deal so that we have 3 competent outside corners. Alas now we must draft another one.

 

[Brady2Moss]

I think the only way we get Taylor is if we pick him with our first, and I'd rather trade back. Slay would be a nice late second round pick.



AJ had 8 catches in both games, one for 95 yards another for 98. Talib did not do nearly as good a job on him as the idiot color commentators would like. The difference was he wasn't routinely destroyed deep for 40 yard gains like Arrington was as an outside CB.

Talib was a decent player for us last year but he was just above average. It's just we have been so used to dreadfully, hilariously, pathetically bad play out of everyone besides McCourty in the secondary that it seemed good.

Also on top of that Arrington was brilliant in the slot which helped tremendously as he went from horrible outside to elite in the slot.

We need a CB. Talib is injury prone, overrated, old, and on a one year deal. Dennard is really still an unproven product.

Given that the defense is built on not giving up the big play I would say that Talib did his job, he is injury prone though. He isn't a shut down corner and only those that consider him one are overrating him. He is a true #1 corner however and that is not overrating him at all.

And when did 27 become old ?

 

[cstjohn17]

With pretty much all the positions and units in pretty good or very good shape the Pats can take the best fit across any of the units. If that happens to be at CB then the Patriots can take a pretty good unit to very good.

 

[tonyto3690]

Given that the defense is built on not giving up the big play I would say that Talib did his job, he is injury prone though. He isn't a shut down corner and only those that consider him one are overrating him. He is a true #1 corner however and that is not overrating him at all.

And when did 27 become old ?

The point remains. He may or may not be here next season and he isn't a lock to be there all season, and in fact it'd be unlikely for him to be. But even less of a lock as a good outside CB is Dennard.

But really it comes down to, do you think losing Talib in the playoffs would be more or less a problem than losing a WR/TE? I think clearly losing either of Dennard/Talib would be WAY more of a catastrophe than Amendola or even Gronk who we did okay with without and have built up fall backs for already. We don't with any of the CBs.

As for the age bit, honestly I thought he was 30 for some reason.

 

[Gumby]

I think the only way we get Taylor is if we pick him with our first, and I'd rather trade back. Slay would be a nice late second round pick.



AJ had 8 catches in both games, one for 95 yards another for 98. Talib did not do nearly as good a job on him as the idiot color commentators would like. The difference was he wasn't routinely destroyed deep for 40 yard gains like Arrington was as an outside CB.

Talib was a decent player for us last year but he was just above average. It's just we have been so used to dreadfully, hilariously, pathetically bad play out of everyone besides McCourty in the secondary that it seemed good.

Also on top of that Arrington was brilliant in the slot which helped tremendously as he went from horrible outside to elite in the slot.

We need a CB. Talib is injury prone, overrated, old, and on a one year deal. Dennard is really still an unproven product.

go back and look at the game log. If I recall correctly only about 2-4 of those 8 came on coverage by Talib. Johnson gets moved around just like pats move wrs and pats assign CB to a side of field - not to man-up.

 

[BradyFTW!]

We need a CB. Talib is injury prone, overrated, old, and on a one year deal. Dennard is really still an unproven product.

I actually agree that he's injury-prone, overrated, and (obviously) on a one-year deal, but old? The guy just turned 27. He's entering what should be his prime years.

 

[Gumby]

go back and look at the game log. If I recall correctly only about 2-4 of those 8 came on coverage by Talib. Johnson gets moved around just like pats move wrs and pats assign CB to a side of field - not to man-up.

Did it myself and while who tackled is not conclusive on who covered:
2 of 8 rec were definitely NOT talib (dennard - LB on a short-middle pass)
1 of 8 were possibly not Talib (mccourty)
1 of 8 is unknown likely talib - (PAT)
4 of 8 for sure Talib

BUT also 3 INCs were likely Talib. So vs Talib AJ was only 5 of 8 'targets' that is 63% - not bad vs one of top wrs in the league, not stoning, but not bad.

 

[The Scrizz]

I'll go w/ option 1.

It's impossible to have starter depth everywhere. You're lucky if all of your starters are starter quality let alone their depth.

We need depth but it doesn't have to be a 1st round pick.

I do consider Dowling a complete non-factor until he proves otherwise. I loved him at the beginning of '11 but until he plays he is a non-entity.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Like most things, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. If everything goes right we are set. Talib and Dennard are quality starters, Arrington solid in the slot and a healthy Dowling is a talented backup. But with the injury history of some of those guys I think we need much greater depth and competition to push these guys. If we can bring someone in that beats out Dowling then great. I think its definitely a need, but not one as big as some try to proclaim. I would be fine with a 2nd/3rd round pick, or even a veteran like Quentin Jammer would be a good fit.

 

[RayClay]

I'm in between. I'd like one more quality rookie, or young pickup. Not necessarily 1st round worthy, but not a special teamer jag either. Agreed that Dowling is a bonus if he contributes.

 

[Stilla]

The players we draft are given the chance to compete for a starting roll up until they become FA, or UFA. If we use our draft to fix needs every year, but we don't find long term starters, we will find that we loose talent in areas which become areas need.

The draft is utilized to find strategic mismatches based upon your assumptions of where the league is headed. As a coach you pick players who fit your ideal build and target those who can become starters.

Nate is a perfect example. He is huge. He is exactly what you want at left tackle, so long as he has the talent to play. You pick him based on his attributes and his up side. You then coach him up. Give him time to fill the roll. And now we have our left tackle for the future.

BB will target players who fit his assumptions of what attributes are areas of need. He will then scout that list for players who can be coached up in a short time.

That's our draft. Best natural attributes (height, weight, speed) , can they be coached up in a short time. If that player creates a mismatch they will be a star and a cog in the workings of the team.

 

[Claremonster]

D looked fine last year w/ Talib and Dennard

Yep. Especially against the Ravens in the playoffs! Simply fcuking amazing!

Uhmm cb is a need (isn't it every year?) in the draft...

 

[Brady2Moss]

The point remains. He may or may not be here next season and he isn't a lock to be there all season, and in fact it'd be unlikely for him to be. But even less of a lock as a good outside CB is Dennard.

But really it comes down to, do you think losing Talib in the playoffs would be more or less a problem than losing a WR/TE? I think clearly losing either of Dennard/Talib would be WAY more of a catastrophe than Amendola or even Gronk who we did okay with without and have built up fall backs for already. We don't with any of the CBs.

As for the age bit, honestly I thought he was 30 for some reason.

I think its the same either way, without Talib/Dennard the defense got torched and without Gronk the offense was useless. Which is why this offseason I wanted to add another outside corner and get a red zone threat in the draft so that we have our bases all covered incase either of those two events happen.

If Talib stays healthy next year, I can see Belichick showing him some money he seems tired of having trash defensive back play. Obviously nothing outrageous in terms of $$, but I don't think its a lock that he leaves.

Either way we will need to draft a corner because we have no 3rd outside corner I refuse to count Ras-I as anything but a running gag and butt of jokes at this point in his career. Really wish we had allocated Arrington's money to Sean Smith/Keenan Lewis/Other Outside CB to pair with Talib and put Dennard in the slot, but whatever.

 

[ATippett56]

OPTION 2
Others, including many of mediots, consider that corner is one of our cry top needs, certainly worthy of our first or second draft pick.

I choose Option 2.

Can you trust Ras-I Dowling to play 16 games in a NFL Season without landing on injured reserve? Can you trust Ras-I Dowling to be a reliable boundary cornerback?

The New England Patriots defense is another pulled hamstring away from Arrington and Dennard starting at cornerback with Cole at nickel.

 

[DocHoliday]

Can you trust Ras-I Dowling to play 16 games in a NFL Season without landing on injured reserve? Can you trust Ras-I Dowling to be a reliable boundary cornerback?

The New England Patriots defense is another pulled hamstring away from Arrington and Dennard starting at cornerback with Cole at nickel.

Very important, but I can't help but think this team needs that new WR. Oh and a DE would help too. And we're sure thin on guards for the future. And hell, Wilfork is getting old...

 

[ATippett56]

Very important, but I can't help but think this team needs that new WR. Oh and a DE would help too. And we're sure thin on guards for the future. And hell, Wilfork is getting old...

Pissing away a fifth round draft pick and a sixth round draft pick on Chad "Ochostinko" Johnson and Albert "fat lay arse" Haynesworth does not assist in acquiring youth and potential depth.

 

[ATippett56]

And hell, Wilfork is getting old...

Yet Niko Koutouvides, Tommy Kelly, Adrian Wilson are all older than Vince Wilfork.