We haven't done anything but get worse

[tonyto3690]

I don't have time to respond to every individual posts, so I'll just hit a couple key things.

1. I'm a big time Patriots fan. Being realistic and calling it how I see it doesn't make me any less of a fan. I'm not complaining we didn't overpay for Reed or free agent A, B, C. I'm not complaining about not winning a championship. I'm stating that our team has limited resources left and we have done nothing but lose all of our WRs and replace them with one extremely injury prone player who may or may not click with Brady. Some of them might be back, but that is just going to take up a diminishing amount of cap space we have left that we need to invest on defense.

2. Adrian Wilson could very well be cut before the season even starts. Sure, Chung was awful, but that doesn't mean Wilson will be great. He was awful last year. Not, mediocre, not underachieving, he was awful. He wasn't even able to start on the Cardinals- a team he put together a borderline HOF career. Expecting him to be great and solidify our safety problem is pretty asinine.

3. Our DL is in fine shape? No. We have a DE who is a massive liability against the run and is a mediocre pass rusher. And we have a DT who can't do anything against 1vs1 matchups except get pushed backwards 3 yards and we're lucky if he falls forward and occasionally wraps up a RB.

4. Our LBs are pretty solid. But we still need a cover linebacker because TE's and RBs lit us up all year and Mayo, HIghtower and Spikes will never become good cover linebackers. Fletcher is a nice thought but expecting him to be a big time contributer is a stretch.

5. CB, solid depth/talent, really? Talib is so grossly overrated. He had a big time effect on our defense because he allowed McCourty to play safety and it coincided with Dennard emerging, allowing Arrington to play in the slot. Any decent corner (or even mediocre) could have done what he did.

Dennard could very likely be in jail.
Dowling is made out of glass and even when healthy was behind Arrington, Dennard and even Cole in the depth chart
Talib is also made of glass


6. S, just like CB is pretty horrible outside of McCourty. We got a whole lot of mediocre #3 and #4s. Maybe Adrian rebounds on a team with a much worse pass rush, worse corners and has a better season, but pardon me for being skeptical that he can be good on a defense that is worse than his previous one in almost every way.

Gregory is a decent #2 free safety who should never start.

Tavon Wilson has been a massive disappointment. They drafted him so unexpectedly high (like Ridley) I hoped they had seen something special in him and he would perform like it. Instead our #48th overall pick was a dimeback who rarely did anything but be a liability in coverage and get some lucky tipped passes to drop in his lap.



The 2011 SB was an anomaly due to lockout and that team was hilariously undertalented. The most undrafted players on a SB roster in NFL history.

Last year we were significantly better and still got smoked by the Ravens

This belief of "well we got decently far in the playoffs, therefore we can't improve in any way and we are good enough to win a SB" is completely ridiculous. Sorry, the Niners talent is miles ahead of the Patriots.

Another season of "lets hope and pray Brady can go berserk and win every game for us almost by himself" is not something I wanted. I expected us to let Welker go, even perhaps vollmer, and take that money and invest it in the defense. So far we haven't done anything besides stay afloat and add a pretty mediocre safety who is just a big name and could easily get cut before playing a single game for us.

 

[Sciz]

Wide reciever is still a LARGE question mark...we went from Wes welker/Lloyd which according to Belichick wasnt a good enough receiving corp

to right now Amendola and ???? we need someone to replace Lloyd's production and/or be a better deep threat/sideline threat.

and lets not act like Belichick hasnt left the team with large holes...2011 he cut every decent safety we had and replaced them with nobody

I dont trust us filling that need in the draft

There's a huge difference between completely ignoring an existing hole and cutting two players that he doesn't think make the team better. Neither Meriweather nor Sanders was any good in 2011, and both were on new teams by 2012 teams. Belichick also made the decision to cut those two after seeing them in training camp. It was a much more educated decision than any choice to not make significant changes at WR between now and early September, which isn't happening.

 

[tonyto3690]

There's a huge difference between completely ignoring an existing hole and cutting two players that he doesn't think make the team better. Neither Meriweather nor Sanders was any good in 2011, and both were on new teams by 2012 teams. Belichick also made the decision to cut those two after seeing them in training camp. It was a much more educated decision than any choice to not make significant changes at WR between now and early September, which isn't happening.

As awful as Merriweather was that season, Sanders wasn't THAT bad.

And you can't honestly believe neither was better than Sergio "here is a free 80 yard PI" Brown.

There is still time to fill holes, but with two draft picks and ~10 million in cap space (3 for draft picks + 2 for emergency signings leaves about 5 million) to sign a free agent or two, expecting us to fill holes at #2 WR, #3 WR, #4 WR, #2 CB, #2 S, Cover LB is pretty unrealistic.

 

[Claremonster]

Name one team that doesn't have a need.....just one team that is 100% complete at this point?

49er's and Seachickens are pretty close to that.

 

[Sciz]

He wasn't even able to start on the Cardinals

False. He started 14 of the 15 games he played last season. I don't think he's the savior of the secondary, but saying he wasn't a starter is blatantly incorrect.

And we have a DT who can't do anything against 1vs1 matchups except get pushed backwards 3 yards and we're lucky if he falls forward and occasionally wraps up a RB.

The few people that take you seriously won't anymore if you keep talking like this.

Mayo, HIghtower and Spikes will never become good cover linebackers.

Can you tell me next week's lottery numbers? We probably know what Mayo is at this stage (always by the player, doesn't always make a play on the ball), but one year from a rookie linebacker where he was playing with a hamstring injury is hardly a indicator that he'll never be good at something.

5. CB, solid depth/talent, really? Talib is so grossly overrated. He had a big time effect on our defense because he allowed McCourty to play safety and it coincided with Dennard emerging, allowing Arrington to play in the slot. Any decent corner (or even mediocre) could have done what he did.

I agree he's not as awesome as some say he is, but would you rather that they not sign a CB? It's the same CB group that they had plenty of success with when they were on the field, and there's still plenty of time to add another player or two to make sure Cole isn't the first guy on the field in case of injury.

Tavon Wilson has been a massive disappointment. They drafted him so unexpectedly high (like Ridley) I hoped they had seen something special in him and he would perform like it. Instead our #48th overall pick was a dimeback who rarely did anything but be a liability in coverage and get some lucky tipped passes to drop in his lap.

Again. Rookie years are a terrible predictor of overall success. By definition, the third safety is more often than not going to be a dime back, and a third safety is hardly a terrible season for a rookie safety.

The most undrafted players on a SB roster in NFL history.

Citation please.

This belief of "well we got decently far in the playoffs, therefore we can't improve in any way and we are good enough to win a SB" is completely ridiculous. Sorry, the Niners talent is miles ahead of the Patriots.

The Pats absolutely can improve, and they only position they've really gotten worse at is WR. They also have five and a half months to improve, so this thread is ridiculously short-sighted, and overall a pretty crappy thread.

 

[Claremonster]

I don't have time to respond to every individual posts, so I'll just hit a couple key things.

1. I'm a big time Patriots fan. Being realistic and calling it how I see it doesn't make me any less of a fan. I'm not complaining we didn't overpay for Reed or free agent A, B, C. I'm not complaining about not winning a championship. I'm stating that our team has limited resources left and we have done nothing but lose all of our WRs and replace them with one extremely injury prone player who may or may not click with Brady. Some of them might be back, but that is just going to take up a diminishing amount of cap space we have left that we need to invest on defense.

2. Adrian Wilson could very well be cut before the season even starts. Sure, Chung was awful, but that doesn't mean Wilson will be great. He was awful last year. Not, mediocre, not underachieving, he was awful. He wasn't even able to start on the Cardinals- a team he put together a borderline HOF career. Expecting him to be great and solidify our safety problem is pretty asinine.

3. Our DL is in fine shape? No. We have a DE who is a massive liability against the run and is a mediocre pass rusher. And we have a DT who can't do anything against 1vs1 matchups except get pushed backwards 3 yards and we're lucky if he falls forward and occasionally wraps up a RB.

4. Our LBs are pretty solid. But we still need a cover linebacker because TE's and RBs lit us up all year and Mayo, HIghtower and Spikes will never become good cover linebackers. Fletcher is a nice thought but expecting him to be a big time contributer is a stretch.

5. CB, solid depth/talent, really? Talib is so grossly overrated. He had a big time effect on our defense because he allowed McCourty to play safety and it coincided with Dennard emerging, allowing Arrington to play in the slot. Any decent corner (or even mediocre) could have done what he did.

Dennard could very likely be in jail.
Dowling is made out of glass and even when healthy was behind Arrington, Dennard and even Cole in the depth chart
Talib is also made of glass


6. S, just like CB is pretty horrible outside of McCourty. We got a whole lot of mediocre #3 and #4s. Maybe Adrian rebounds on a team with a much worse pass rush, worse corners and has a better season, but pardon me for being skeptical that he can be good on a defense that is worse than his previous one in almost every way.

Gregory is a decent #2 free safety who should never start.

Tavon Wilson has been a massive disappointment. They drafted him so unexpectedly high (like Ridley) I hoped they had seen something special in him and he would perform like it. Instead our #48th overall pick was a dimeback who rarely did anything but be a liability in coverage and get some lucky tipped passes to drop in his lap.



The 2011 SB was an anomaly due to lockout and that team was hilariously undertalented. The most undrafted players on a SB roster in NFL history.

Last year we were significantly better and still got smoked by the Ravens

This belief of "well we got decently far in the playoffs, therefore we can't improve in any way and we are good enough to win a SB" is completely ridiculous. Sorry, the Niners talent is miles ahead of the Patriots.

Another season of "lets hope and pray Brady can go berserk and win every game for us almost by himself" is not something I wanted. I expected us to let Welker go, even perhaps vollmer, and take that money and invest it in the defense. So far we haven't done anything besides stay afloat and add a pretty mediocre safety who is just a big name and could easily get cut before playing a single game for us.

Oddly enough, I cannot argue anything on what you said.

I do think that Wilson has more left in the tank that you do though.

Why BB didn't go after Awesome/wa, or another good cb...I have no idea. Kind of shocked that he didn't. Abraham might sign. Sanders might sign.

 

[Ring 6]

Last year it's arguably a different tune if gronk, talib, and chandler are healthy. However every team deals with injuries, including the sb champs ravens who were without their best corner, starting ss had broken ribs, former dpoy was a shell of himself, star dt was barely function and so on. They still smoked us in our own house and I'm pretty sure the niners, packers, falcons and Seahawks all would have beaten us as well.

So what have we done to improve? Our offense has gotten worse, which is okay assuming it gets worse because we invest in improving the defense... Which we have barely done anything besides barely maintain the status quo.

The only way you could possibly believe we will better this season is if you believe MULTIPLE of the following will happen.

1. We get two impact starters with our late first and second round picks
2. A few of Chandler, Wilson, dowling, Ridley, vereen, Hightower, bequette will have a significantly better season.
3. Gronkowski and Hernandez will both be healthy the entire season.
4. Brady will have a 50-1 td-int ratio.
5. Amendola turns into 2007 moss.
6. We manage to trade for a big time star player
7. We hit a couple Danny Woodhead calibre home runs in udfa and fa scrap heap
8. Wilson turns into 2004 Rodney Harrison
9. Talib stays healthy the entire season

For me there are WAY too many "if he stays healthy for the first time in his entire career" and "if we get extremely lucky and hit massive home runs" for my taste. Right now we are a worse team and a lot of things have to go right o just break even, let alone be better.

We have gaping holes on the dl, serious corner depth issues, questionable safety play behind McCourty and are still incapable of covering good pass catching tight ends and running backs. On top of that, our offense which won us most of our games in large part thanks to welker is praying amendola can stay healthy (doubtful) and can even come close to the production welker gave. AND we currently have no other real wideouts on the roster that we need to save cap space for and address somehow.

Im not saying we are going to be bad, but right now I don't see much beyond a first or second round loss in disappointing fashion. Our defense getting lit up in the secondary, no pass rush, and our team unable to run to win when it counts. Sorry it's not being a pessimist to think we can't solve these issues with two top 60 picks and limited cap space and free agents available.

I'm so worried we aren't ready for that game we have tomorrow and wonder why we kept 10mill of cap space for nothing.

 

[ivanvamp]

QB - same
RB - about the same (Washington is pretty much Woodhead but older and faster)
WR - downgrade from Welker -> Amendola, but I'll take Jones over Branch; overall a bit worse
TE - upgrade with Ballard coming on board
OL - the same
DL - upgrade with Armstead (we hope)
LB - upgrade with Fletcher coming back
CB - the same, but that was an improvement with Talib in there
S - upgrade with Wilson
K/P - the same
K/P return - upgrade with Washington, one of the best in the business

I see one area that could be considered a downgrade: WR. But no way are they finished there, so I expect that to be a net plus. And the DL should improve, as I believe the Pats will add Abraham when all is said and done.

 

[mgteich]

If we're comparing on paper in March, we are better at many positions and HUGELY worse at WR. At this point, even with a minor signing, I would consider drafting TWO wide receivers, hoping to get one 2013 contributor.
=============================
In addition to bringing in a half dozen wide receivers, we would like to add a pass-rusher, backup corner(s), backup DT, and a backup OG.

 

[Joey007]

Gronk played two full seasons and then Sergio Brown decided that he finally wanted to make a play but it was on an extra point that didn't mean anything.

You know, something about that Meriweather-Disciple always gave me a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach that he'd find a way to screw us over. I just didn't expect him to be on the other team.

 

[tonyto3690]

False. He started 14 of the 15 games he played last season. I don't think he's the savior of the secondary, but saying he wasn't a starter is blatantly incorrect.

He was the nickel safety.

The few people that take you seriously won't anymore if you keep talking like this.

It was an exaggeration that isn't that far from the truth. Our biggest problem the past couple years was teams double Wilfork and Love/Deaderick do absolutely nothing. They just get stone walled and when Ninkovich/Anderson flies by the QB, they step up into the pocket and throw the ball 40 yards down field to Manningham/Boldin.

Can you tell me next week's lottery numbers? We probably know what Mayo is at this stage (always by the player, doesn't always make a play on the ball), but one year from a rookie linebacker where he was playing with a hamstring injury is hardly a indicator that he'll never be good at something.

I know you're being argumentative for the sake of it, but try not to be flat out stupid for the sake of arguing. They are big guys. Spikes OBVIOUSLY is never going to be anything better than a mild liability in coverage. Hightower has the best chance and even he is clearly too big and hulking and slow to keep up with the good TEs and pass catching RBs of the world. Rice destroyed him in coverage in the AFCCG.

I agree he's not as awesome as some say he is, but would you rather that they not sign a CB? It's the same CB group that they had plenty of success with when they were on the field, and there's still plenty of time to add another player or two to make sure Cole isn't the first guy on the field in case of injury.

That's not my point. My point was that Talib is not enough. People are acting like we signed Talib therefore our CB position is set and we won't have serious issues in coverage like we did all year. This is ignoring the fact Talib is made of glass and it's almost inevitable he will miss significant time.

Throw in the fact Dennard for all we know could miss the entire season in jail and the belief our CB position is set is ridiculous.

Again. Rookie years are a terrible predictor of overall success. By definition, the third safety is more often than not going to be a dime back, and a third safety is hardly a terrible season for a rookie safety.

When you draft a guy with the 48th overall pick he needs to make an instant impact. Dime safety is not good enough for that high a draft position. We're not talking a low 4th round pick. We're talking a middle 2nd round pick on a guy who was considered a massive reach.

Citation please.

It was in the SB pregame report.

The Pats absolutely can improve, and they only position they've really gotten worse at is WR. They also have five and a half months to improve, so this thread is ridiculously short-sighted, and overall a pretty crappy thread.

We have gotten worse. Staying pat at DT, DE, CB and for all intents and purposes, S and then losing our All Pro WR means we are a worse team. Sure we can improve, but most of the remaining money will be spent on two draft picks who may or may not improve, depth at WR who may or may not be decent players (likely worse than Lloyd/Edelman last year), and then some depth/prayer pieces on the OL, DL, CB and S.

 

[mgteich]

We'll see. Barring a trade for Fitzy, I don't see WR being a net plus going into the season.

I see one area that could be considered a downgrade: WR. But no way are they finished there, so I expect that to be a net plus.

 

[JackBauer]

Myriad issues with the OP notwithstanding, on what planet do we need a CB2?

 

[Sciz]

He was the nickel safety.

No. He was the exact opposite. He was the starter who came out in the nickel.


And that's where I decided this argument was no longer worth my time.

 

[Bruins29]

I'm so worried we aren't ready for that game we have tomorrow and wonder why we kept 10mill of cap space for nothing.

Andy, I wonder how sane adults can post on a forum with so many Chicken Little children. I mean really....Its not even April and its all doom and gloom because we dont have all-pros at every position.

I cant imagine what this board would have been like back in the 90s when we couldnt win a game.

Some of you really need perspective.

 

[Bruins29]

The few people that take you seriously won't anymore if you keep talking like this.
.

I had 3 responses to this. I cant decide which I want to use.

1. I think you are being very generous with the word "few"

2. I am sure we can name the "few" people. It is the same posters who post the same "Pats cant do anything right" tripe we see here every day.

3. Are these "few" people blind?

Still cant decide.

 

[IcyPatriot]

when is the silly season over???

 

[Bruins29]

when is the silly season over???

There should be a basic quiz you have to take to post here.

It should include questions about the salary cap, when the season starts, what free agency is, what the draft is for, how valuable good team chemistry is, how just getting great players means nothing and means you have to pay less someplace else.

You know, some common sense stuff that is seemingly lost on many here.

It is embarrassing already. You people sound like whiny crybabies.

 

[JMC00]

so unexpectedly high (like Ridley)

Ya how's that 3rd round pick for Ridley working out?

Still can't believe people wanted Ingram with a 1st round pick. Ridley is arguably right now the best RB to come out of that draft.

 

[tonyto3690]

Andy, I wonder how sane adults can post on a forum with so many Chicken Little children. I mean really....Its not even April and its all doom and gloom because we dont have all-pros at every position.

I cant imagine what this board would have been like back in the 90s when we couldnt win a game.

Some of you really need perspective.

Seriously? This is the most hypocritical garbage I've seen in a while.

YOU need some perspective. We have gigantic flaws on the DL, CB, S and don't have 15 draft picks to fix these issues. We have gotten worse on offense without improving on defense.

Last year we were not even close to good enough. While the Niners, Falcons and Seahawks all improve we are staying put with what looks like the same issues as we always have. We are dependent on Brady dominating games to have a chance to win and our secondary will give up massive gains in the air.

Our secondary is going to get lit up this year. Ninkovich will continue to be a massive liability in the running game (though it appears they are at least trying to replace him), and our LBs will continue to let TEs and RBs have monster games in the passing game.

No one is asking for All Pros at every position. But acting like our team is set at every position is pretty hilariously stupid. We have some serious issues we need to address, not including having one real WR on the roster who is coming off surgery and has proven can't stay healthy for a full season.