Report: Welker won't be franchised

[Deus Irae]

Just to be an ass its all hope here.

It's not all hope that good players will be better in the system when they get more comfortable in the system and they are not in a state of physical decline. It's general expectation based upon history (which is why we often hear about players "in their prime"), albeit with the understanding that you might not get a 100% success rate.

It's hope that an outside Jag will produce well at WR, which was your earlier argument.

Both are certainly speculative, as is pretty much everything when it's being done/discussed before it actually is applied, but one has a much firmer foundation (and it's not the hope of a JAG) .

 

[ivanvamp]

Jason's got them down around $11 million after paying off all bonuses and draft picks. As for Welker, the $11 million number is only an issue if we're talking tag. While the Patriots should have signed him to a 3 year deal last year, it's still possible to do that this year. If they worked the deal out properly, they could probably get his hit down to about $5 million without doing too much damage to the year 3 cap, and with the obvious ability to give a reasonable extension if needed/earned at that time. Then, if you added in a Mankins restructure (about $3 million), they'd still have somewhere around $8 million to work with.

Freeney's numbers indicate that he's done (admittedly, that's not proof, but it's a pretty convincing indication to me), and Reed is not going to come to New England unless the Patriots make an insane offer, if his words mean anything. IMO, the team would be much better served by drafting a safety at the end of round one, and then letting him work his way into the lineup at whatever pace it takes to have him ready for the big time when the playoffs come around.

I think they should draft defense and WR almost exclusively this year anyway. But I don't think Freeney is done because in my scenario he's a role player. He was still an every-down player for Indy last year and I don't think he's capable of that anymore. But as a pure pass-rusher, I think he still could be very helpful. Him on one side and Jones on the other, with Ninkovich coming on as well. That's a nice 1-2-3 punch. Plus (and I don't really know how much this would help) Freeney is a Syracuse guy and he and Jones could have a nice teacher-student thing going. I'd love for Jones, with his athleticism, develop some of Freeney's technique.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think they should draft defense and WR almost exclusively this year anyway. But I don't think Freeney is done because in my scenario he's a role player. He was still an every-down player for Indy last year and I don't think he's capable of that anymore. But as a pure pass-rusher, I think he still could be very helpful. Him on one side and Jones on the other, with Ninkovich coming on as well. That's a nice 1-2-3 punch. Plus (and I don't really know how much this would help) Freeney is a Syracuse guy and he and Jones could have a nice teacher-student thing going. I'd love for Jones, with his athleticism, develop some of Freeney's technique.

Here's the thing with Freeney. Sacks in recent years:

10.5
13.5
10.0
8.5
5.0

He just turned 32 today. The question, to me, is whether that 3 years of steady decline can be reversed. While it's possible, I don't consider it likely.

Then again, I didn't expect to see Reggie Wayne putting up the second best season of his career last year, either.

 

[Brady6]

So name the team that has put up more yards and points than the Patriots have with Welker?


C'mon now, you are the one who set the criteria, let's see you come up with the answer.

The Ravens did in the conference championship.

 

[Brady6]

How is asking what level of school you're currently attending, and explaining my rationale, an attack or insult?

Just stop.. I don't like Internet tough guys. Move on

 

[Brady6]

When posters say ridiculous things questioning whether or not they meet the intellectual height bar becomes a responsibility. helmet2helmet wouldn't be allowed on the train that runs inside the mall so he's now on ignore.

Nothing ridiculous about questioning Wes Welker's worth. What percent of his catches could of been made by anyone in his position? How many plays does he makes that only he could make? Can we get 1354 yards and 6 touchdowns someplace else for a lower cost ? What are the dimensions to a offense that Welker brings that cannot be duplicated. Is spending the big money on Welker the best formula to win a SB? All responsible questions that anyone who isn't scared of change and looking at reality would ask.

 

[Brady6]

Deleted previous post

 

[Brady6]

Talib is the one i wouldn't tag under any circumstances, he simply hasn't earned it.

Ivanvamp, i'm more than happy to talk about this more later with you, like i said I respect your position on it even if i don't agree, my issue is with the sh.ttalkers who don't know anything about football and talk pure crap about Welker. The guy has played at an unbelievable level since coming here, and they have had the best offense in NFL history since he came here, that's just a fact. If they had an an unbelievable WR corps minus Welker then those arguing to let him walk would be on better ground, but without him they very well may have the worst WR corps in football, and that is not what you want Brady working with next season or for the rest of his career. right now i see no viable way they improve next season by letting welker go, and i haven't seen so much as one reasonable plan for doing so, and i want them to win more rings before brady retires. imo that is the number one goal, and keeping welker is critical to it. they still need a deep threat even if they l;et him go, but they shouldn't trade out one for the other.

got to go before the dogs go nuts.

I would transition him just to feel out the situation

 

[Deus Irae]

You want to sign a 180lb slot receiver who is the same age.

Freeney's last 4 years show a steady decline from 13.5 sacks down to 5.0 sacks. In comparison, Welker's last 4 years:

Catches

123
86
122
118


Yards
1348
848
1569
1354

So, while Dwight Freeney's numbers clearly show significant decline, and he is 9 years removed from his career high in sacks, Welker's numbers remain steady, his numbers have been excellent post-surgery, he's just one year removed from his career high in yards, and he's just caught 110+ passes in a season for an NFL record setting 5th time.

Your attempt to lump the two together is kind of ridiculous.

Also, if you can't handle something as innocuous as being asked what level of school you're in, you probably shouldn't continue responding to my posts.

 

[Ivan]

The Ravens did in the conference championship.

Good to see you admit you are wrong. You can't do it, period, that's the end of the story, feel free to talk complete crap with other posters, off to ignore you go.

 

[Brady6]

Freeney's last 4 years show a steady decline from 13.5 sacks down to 5.0 sacks. In comparison, Welker's last 4 years:

Catches

123
86
122
118


Yards
1348
848
1569
1354

So, while Dwight Freeney's numbers clearly show significant decline, and he is 9 years removed from his career high in sacks, Welker's numbers remain steady, his numbers have been excellent post-surgery, he's just one year removed from his career high in yards, and he's just caught 110+ passes in a season for an NFL record setting 5th time.

Your attempt to lump the two together is kind of ridiculous.

Also, if you can't handle something as innocuous as being asked what level of school you're in, you probably shouldn't continue responding to my posts.

New scheme in 2012, terrible team chasing #1 in 2011, 2010 had ankle issue. Freeney's done less with less opportunity last season you slot WR did less with more opportunity than the previous year.

 

[Deus Irae]

New scheme in 2012, terrible team chasing #1 in 2011, 2010 had ankle issue. Freeney's done less with less opportunity last season you slot WR did less with more opportunity than the previous year.

And here's the proof that you're either a child or a troll. Thanks. Off to ignore with you.

 

[Brady6]

Freeney's last 4 years show a steady decline from 13.5 sacks down to 5.0 sacks. In comparison, Welker's last 4 years:

Catches

123
86
122
118


Yards
1348
848
1569
1354

So, while Dwight Freeney's numbers clearly show significant decline, and he is 9 years removed from his career high in sacks, Welker's numbers remain steady, his numbers have been excellent post-surgery, he's just one year removed from his career high in yards, and he's just caught 110+ passes in a season for an NFL record setting 5th time.

Your attempt to lump the two together is kind of ridiculous.

Also, if you can't handle something as innocuous as being asked what level of school you're in, you probably shouldn't continue responding to my posts.

I think we can discuss football as adults without you being a Internet bully and violating the forum rules? If you don't think you can let me know and I won't respond to your posts otherwise I am open to good football debate with another mature and respecting member.

 

[Brady6]

New scheme in 2012, terrible team chasing #1 in 2011, 2010 had ankle issue. Freeney's done less with less opportunity last season you slot WR did less with more opportunity than the previous year.

I'm not either my friend I'm pointing the metrics and the history that followings them.

 

[Ivan]

I'm more than willing to discuss this with anyone who understands football and uses reality as a basis for the discussion, I'm all done with the fantasy football morons.

 

[Ivan]

I'm more than willing to discuss this with anyone who understands football and uses reality as a basis for the discussion, I'm all done with the fantasy football morons.

Actually i should apologize because there are many who play fantasy football who aren't morons, so i will just limit the past comment to the morons who trash Welker, as you really have to be a complete moron to do so.

 

[signbabybrady]

It's not all hope that good players will be better in the system when they get more comfortable in the system and they are not in a state of physical decline. It's general expectation based upon history (which is why we often hear about players "in their prime"), albeit with the understanding that you might not get a 100% success rate.

It's hope that an outside Jag will produce well at WR, which was your earlier argument.

Both are certainly speculative, as is pretty much everything when it's being done/discussed before it actually is applied, but one has a much firmer foundation (and it's not the hope of a JAG) .

Like I said I was being an ass with that statement as I believe in the improvement on the youth being the most important factor to us getting number 4. The bold was the response or point I was making. But I dont agree with the underlined as I think it is just as likely to see improved play out the youth as it would be to see average play out of a JAG. The whole point I have been making is that replacing Wes with even average play will still leave you with a pretty darn good offense.

no where did I say a JAG would produce the same as Wes just that any JAGs average play when combined with lloyd Gronk and AHERN is still a really good group of targets for Brady.

 

[Deus Irae]

Like I said I was being an ass with that statement as I believe in the improvement on the youth being the most important factor to us getting number 4.

I read your post, and was just posting back, which is why I tossed in the wink.

The bold was the response or point I was making. But I dont agree with the underlined as I think it is just as likely to see improved play out the youth as it would be to see average play out of a JAG. The whole point I have been making is that replacing Wes with even average play will still leave you with a pretty darn good offense.

Agree/don't agree is irrelevant. It's more likely that a good young player still on the upswing will improve than it is that a JAG will come in and find success. We've seen that here in New England for a long, long time, and it's the same throughout the league. Numerically, it's inarguable.

Look, you're absolutely welcome to rely on hope if you wish, and it's certainly possible that we'll all be relying on just that in the upcoming season. If we are, though, that's not a good thing.

 

[Deus Irae]

This doesn't have a firm number, so I didn't figure it to warrant its own thread, but here's some cap news:

A source with knowledge of the situation tells PFT that the team-by-team spending limit will exceed $122 million in 2013.

Source: Cap will be north of $122 million | ProFootballTalk

 

[ivanvamp]

Here's the thing with Freeney. Sacks in recent years:

10.5
13.5
10.0
8.5
5.0

He just turned 32 today. The question, to me, is whether that 3 years of steady decline can be reversed. While it's possible, I don't consider it likely.

Then again, I didn't expect to see Reggie Wayne putting up the second best season of his career last year, either.

Right, I know the numbers. But again, as I said, he's no longer suited to be an every down player. But as a situational pass rusher, where he can focus his energies on essentially one thing only - getting after the quarterback - I think he could still be really useful.