Report: Welker won't be franchised

[signbabybrady]

Go back and read your posts again. Because of the context of the discussion, you were cleary implying that Johnson could have gotten it done if he'd just had more opportunities.

You are absolutely correct Dues and you should go back and read it too because the context of that discussion was that had Wes been hurt on Week 1 Chad would have been able to get it done. But the context of get it done was something similar to Reche and you then turned around and laughed implying I was saying Chad would catch 120 balls and I implied no such thing.

Every single one of them was brought in under similar circumstances.

Reche's situation - The only WR you could consider better than him was Troy who was in his second to last year of playing with Watson as the best TE.

The players you mentioned - Jackson, Johnson, Gabriel, and Hayes

None of those players were thrown into the fire as the number one receiver on the team and if they were thrown into number 2 the number one receiver was much better than Troy that year and they all had equal TEs if not much much better. In some of these cases the option better might have been reche himself but still there none the less.

Not similar situations sorry.

No, I have it in my mind that Wes Welker is the player around whom the receiving corps revolves, and is the player, besides Brady, who is most responsible for keeping the offense moving. I have it in my mind that replacing that player will take more than "Bring in a JAG, and pretty much any JAG will do!".

Again you fail to miss what my point is which is not that any JAG can replace Wes my point is that any JAG can replace half of what Wes gave you and talent already on the roster or that will round out the roster can replace most of the rest leaving you at least pretty close production wise again this might mean you are not the number one offense in the whole league but I think this still would leave you top 5 or 10.

You're confusing hope and opinion with fact.

Your plan continues to be hope in one hand....

Its not just hope and opinion fact is that there are plenty of ways to skin a cat and have a successful offense. Fact is there are more players in the NFL that are capable of catching passes. Fact is that even without Wes you still have more talent on the offense than many of the other successful seasons with Tom has your QB and BB as Your Coach.

And yes finally it is my opinion that we can replace Wes and still be a team capable of competing for a championship even if Wes' replacement were some JAG. Not that it should be the plan but it I feel it is possible.

 

[Deus Irae]

You are absolutely correct Dues and you should go back and read it too because the context of that discussion was that had Wes been hurt on Week 1 Chad would have been able to get it done. But the context of get it done was something similar to Reche and you then turned around and laughed implying I was saying Chad would catch 120 balls and I implied no such thing.

He caught 15 passes in 15 games. Even when they were forcing him into the system, he never caught more than 2 passes in a game.

Reche's situation - The only WR you could consider better than him was Troy who was in his second to last year of playing with Watson as the best TE.

The players you mentioned - Jackson, Johnson, Gabriel, and Hayes

None of those players were thrown into the fire as the number one receiver on the team and if they were thrown into number 2 the number one receiver was much better than Troy that year and they all had equal TEs if not much much better. In some of these cases the option better might have been reche himself but still there none the less.

Not similar situations sorry.

You're trying to differentiate one veteran outside receiver from another veteran outside receiver on the basis of absolutely nothing. Good luck with that.

Again you fail to miss what my point is which is not that any JAG can replace Wes my point is that any JAG can replace half of what Wes gave you and talent already on the roster or that will round out the roster can replace most of the rest leaving you at least pretty close production wise again this might mean you are not the number one offense in the whole league but I think this still would leave you top 5 or 10.

I haven't missed your point. You know that you're point is not a valid one, which is why you already did a partial backtrack on it. You just should have dropped the argument instead of doubling down on it with a smaller argument. There is absolutely no guarantee that a formerly quality receiver, nevermind a JAG receiver, comes in and reaches even half of Welker's numbers. Again, we've seen that here time and again.

Its not just hope and opinion fact is that there are plenty of ways to skin a cat and have a successful offense. Fact is there are more players in the NFL that are capable of catching passes. Fact is that even without Wes you still have more talent on the offense than many of the other successful seasons with Tom has your QB and BB as Your Coach.

And yes finally it is my opinion that we can replace Wes and still be a team capable of competing for a championship even if Wes' replacement were some JAG. Not that it should be the plan but it I feel it is possible.

It is just hope in one hand and crap in the other. That's precisely what it is, pretty much by definition.

 

[supafly]

And to your point of Welker being the toughest receiver in the game, why did he drop that wide open third down pass in the AFCCG?

You are talking about a dropped pass. That has absolutely nothing to do with being one of the toughest WR's to ever play the position.

Also, Johnson and Fitzgerald disappear no more than Welker. Once again, I have to ask if you have even watched them play?

You are responding to someone with 7,000 posts on a football based messageboard in the offseason...in the middle of February...at 1:33 in the morning. I am just as much a fan as you are. I'm well aware of the NFL's players outside of N.England.

That has nothing to do with this conversation. It is a difference of opinions. I explained to you the difference of individual skillsets, and claimed that a "strong argument can be made." As pointed out multiple times, it's about the value and production of not having to pay someone with lesser stats 15 million dollars a year. How would you propose that could be accomplished?

If you honestly think that during the current salary cap era (and even moreso the current flat cap era) obtaining a player like Fitzgerald or Johnson and paying them 15 million a year to produce less numbers would actually be beneficial for the team, that's on you...

 

[signbabybrady]

He caught 15 passes in 15 games. Even when they were forcing him into the system, he never caught more than 2 passes in a game.

Chad sucked there is no arguing that. That isnt what I was saying. All I was saying in that point was that his production would have been more had Wes gone down week 1.

You're trying to differentiate one veteran outside receiver from another veteran outside receiver on the basis of absolutely nothing. Good luck with that.

I am differentiating that they were not in the same situation as Reche and your contention that they were in a similar situation to Reche would be delved from the same basis.

I haven't missed your point. You know that you're point is not a valid one, which is why you already did a partial backtrack on it. You just should have dropped the argument instead of doubling down on it with a smaller argument. There is absolutely no guarantee that a formerly quality receiver, nevermind a JAG receiver, comes in and reaches even half of Welker's numbers. Again, we've seen that here time and again.

I did not make any smaller argument. The only thing I was willing to contend is that any JAG might not work in this system but a specific JAG that fits the system could do something similar to what Reche did which would then have half of Wes production replaced.

My point is to say that we will not likely replace Wes with one player that puts up the same numbers but that one of many JAG receivers would be capable of replacing half of it(finding Just an average guy is not guarenteed but is very likely) and hopefully we sign someone who is more than a JAG. And whatever other production remains will need to and can for the most part be filled by skill position players already on the team.

To be honest I am not sure what the heck your point has been other than to argue a point I wasnt even making (which is a JAG could replace Wes).

You seem to think that if the Patriots do not resign Wes that Tom will automatically throw 120 less completions.

It is just hope in one hand and crap in the other. That's precisely what it is, pretty much by definition.

This really is a dumb line and you just keep saying. Any replacement for Wes at this point in time could only be categorized as hope. I could say that the plan is to let Wes walk and trade for Calvin Johnson and you could still say you are just hoping that Calvin has the same production and that there is no guarentee he would fit with Brady and you are just hoping.

So yes I am hoping that if we let Wes walk that at the very least we can find a JAG to replace half of his production. I really hope we could do better than a JAG should Wes walk. I also hope that with or without Wes that Gronk and Hernandez can have healthier seasons. And if they were healthier I would hope they would produce more than they did last season which would replace some Wes production should he leave. I hope Jules comes back and I hope he can be healhier. Heck I hope Wes stays.

 

[borg]

You don't seem to know how sample size works, and you don't take alternate factors into account.

Also, the Ravens scored fewer than 30 points twice in the four games, and ST did it one out of 3.

Just using the sample that ended the Pats playoffs each year.
And how many games did the Ravens score fewer than 13? The Pats might have outscored them in that game. Might have

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Anyone think that if they didn't lock up hernandez they would have locked up welker?

 

[Helmet2Helmet]

Anyone think that if they didn't lock up hernandez they would have locked up welker?

They made a smart decision locking up Aaron instead of the Butterfingers Midget.

 

[grux]

Anyone think that if they didn't lock up hernandez they would have locked up welker?

I think this is an over looked reason as to why Welker hasn't been signed. He had been a productive player before Gronk & Hernandez were even on the team. Then the Pats lock up Gronk & Hernandez and franchise Welker. Welker would never say it publicly but he must have been pissed when he didn't receive a long term contract. IMO, when they locked up the tight ends the Pats priority wasn't keeping Wes long term. There is no way Wes is signing a two year 8 million dollar deal (Nor should he). So, the Pats franchised him last year at a fair deal and got another productive year from their top receiver. Now the franchise tag is to much so they will probably let him test the market. I can easily see a team offering Wes a long term deal in the area of 9-10 Mill a year. Maybe the Pats offer him a similar contract and keep him. Personally I think they are going to let him walk.

 

[Jackson 2]

They made a smart decision locking up Aaron instead of the Butterfingers Midget.

"...the Butterfingers Midget." It's difficult to believe that it's actually sunk to this level.

 

[Helmet2Helmet]

"...the Butterfingers Midget." It's difficult to believe that it's actually sunk to this level.

Haha, that's only the censored version. If anyone wants to hear my real opinion of Welker just send me a PM. With that, ill leave the topic because I know a lot of fans are obsessed with him.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I agree that there are limits.

But I also think that if the 2013 Pats had Calvin Johnson, they would not have the offensive breakdown in the playoffs they've had in their last three playoff losses.

So I don't know, maybe he would be worth HUGE cap dollars.

Because make no mistake, the Pats lost to the Giants and Ravens because, more than anything else, their high powered offense failed them.

No doubt, a healthy Gronk changes a lot against the Giants and Ravens. But still, I see Johnson, or someone else remotely like him, as a big difference maker.

And no doubt, Welker will be very hard to replace.

Anyone who views this discussion -- on any side -- as totally black and white is...dreaming.

The Patriots finished up the season $5.6M under the cap. After freeing up $7.2M in cap space by restructuring Brady's deal which has left them just $15M under the cap heading into 2013 with holes to fill (not counting Welker) at CB x 2, RG, and a half dozen or so veteran depth players who are also UFA. Explain to me what you would do to accommodate the cap hits that come with a player of CJ's ilk, and which draft picks you'd have foregone to acquire same...

I have a feeling that if we had CJ the defensive breakdown would have been far greater than what we experienced with Jones and Talib and Love sidelined. Probably more along the lines of epic, including one and done.

The team could use someone "remotely" like him, but not as a replacement for Welker. In addition to Welker and Gronkowski and Hernandez (and because you need insurance in case someone can't answer the bell come playoff time). Perhaps in place of Lloyd. Someone like Boldin immediately comes to mind, but Bill passed on a chance at signing him 3 years ago. The price was 4 years at $7M (less than half of CJ's deal) plus a third and fourth with a fifth coming back. If that was to rich for Belichick's blood, there is no way he'd ever trade for a player - let alone a WR - at more than twice that price in contract and draft compensation.

Could have had Boldin for 4 years for just $10M more than they will have paid for 3 years of Lloyd and one year of Ocho. And a third and fourth with a fifth back instead of a fifth and a sixth...so we had the fourth to trade for a rent a corner... Just keep that in mind when you ponder what if trade or if only scenarios.

 

[TomPatriot]

Haha, that's only the censored version. If anyone wants to hear my real opinion of Welker just send me a PM. With that, ill leave the topic because I know a lot of fans are obsessed with him.

I don't really understand the hate, unless you are a Fins/Jets fan or once passionately stalked Anna Burns.

 

[Ring 6]

Not everyone has Tom Brady to help them do it with. And the point of my post was not to say that coming up with 120 will be easy but it was more to say that almost by default in having Tom we can easily replace half of it with any JAG at WR a la Caldwell.

How is replacing half of the production of your top WR a good thing?

 

[Ring 6]

Haha, that's only the censored version. If anyone wants to hear my real opinion of Welker just send me a PM. With that, ill leave the topic because I know a lot of fans are obsessed with him.

I'm betting no one wants to hear it.

 

[Deus Irae]

Just using the sample that ended the Pats playoffs each year.
And how many games did the Ravens score fewer than 13? The Pats might have outscored them in that game. Might have

Yes, you're cherrypicking losses and noting that the team didn't play as well in losses as it did in wins. That's not exactly news.

As for points, I've been over that about a thousand times, and you've seen the info. You're just trolling, because you know your points have been dealt with time and again.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't really understand the hate, unless you are a Fins/Jets fan or once passionately stalked Anna Burns.

Former member who got banned and has done an end run around the banning, I believe.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

They made a smart decision locking up Aaron instead of the Butterfingers Midget.

ahhh a new troll

 

[ausbacker]

Haha, that's only the censored version. If anyone wants to hear my real opinion of Welker just send me a PM. With that, ill leave the topic because I know a lot of fans are obsessed with him.

I'd prefer to not have to read any of your opinions. I blame myself for the failure to utilize the ignore function.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

From the NFL.com article:

A source with intimate knowledge of the team's thinking told Ron Borges of the Boston Herald that the Patriots "are simply not going to put an $11.4 million franchise tag" on the 31-year-old wide receiver.​

So I go to the original article in the Herald, and guess what? Zero mention of any such source! It's just Borges going down memory lane with players that have not been re-signed.

Wes Welker's 'leap' led into this abyss | Ron Borges | Boston Herald




Ron Borges is one of, if not the best X's and O's beat reporters for the Patriots. However, he has two huge flaws that he far too often falls prey to: anything to do with Bill Belichick (dating back to BB's decision to go with Brady over Bledsoe, and then trading Bledsoe, who was his inside source for information that he could write exclusive content); and secondly, anything at all to do with owner-employee/player relationships. Borges is and always has been over the top pro-union/player, anti-owner - which in turn makes him anti-Kraft as well.

Besides, consider this: who could possibly be Borges' "source with intimate knowledge of the team's thinking", as the second sentence of the NFL.com article states? Borges has had zero contacts in Foxboro for a decade! If there is indeed anybody, the only one I can think of is Welker's agent.

Now does that mean that Borges is wrong, and Welker will be franchised?

No, I would say that there is a very good chance that Welker won't be given the tag. However, basing that prediction on an alleged source of Ron Borges is ridiculous.

Dunn, Welker's agent, is likely his source. Ron is very well connected in the agent community and they are considered league sources. He always gets the minute details on the contracts because all agents are apprised of them.

 

[Ring 6]

Dunn, Welker's agent, is likely his source. Ron is very well connected in the agent community and they are considered league sources. He always gets the minute details on the contracts because all agents are apprised of them.

It didn't say a league source. It said 'someone with an intimate knowledge of the way the team thinks'.
At best that means someone who was (maybe is but doubtful) in the organization, deals with the organization, or credits themselves as an expert, predicted this.
If Mike Lomabrdi, Eric Mangini, Romeo Crenell, or even Mike Mayock told Borges they can't imagine the Pats tagging Welker at 11.4mill that qualifies both as meeting the standard of this quote, and being pretty meaningless.