Organized Religion: An utter waste of time

[Triple-T]

Heh. Just saw that this forum existed and felt like jumping into the fray. (Excellent naming Ian, congrats!)

I guess I have to direct this mostly towards 3 to be 4 and mgteich because you two seem to be right off the deep end.

Religion is not quite the "evil" that grogan or Sam Harris would make it out to be, but I can't imagine a bigger waste of time in the world.

Let me help you out here real quick.

There

Is

No

God

There is also no santa claus, no easter bunny, no ghosts, no goblins and no other such make believe. Also, if you really believe that folks who lived 2-5K years ago have a better understanding of the world we live in than the people of today, perhaps you have not been paying attention to any aspect of human history.

Seriously guys, get a life and stop playing around in the world of make believe. Maybe try pretending for a minute that you live on a planet with a bunch of other people that you should try to find a way to relate to, instead of finding ways to build barriers.

God bless!

er..um..

gesundheit

or please, just stop sneezing.

 

[3 to be 4]

Heh. Just saw that this forum existed and felt like jumping into the fray. (Excellent naming Ian, congrats!)

I guess I have to direct this mostly towards 3 to be 4 and mgteich because you two seem to be right off the deep end.

Religion is not quite the "evil" that grogan or Sam Harris would make it out to be, but I can't imagine a bigger waste of time in the world.

Let me help you out here real quick.

There

Is

No

God

There is also no santa claus, no easter bunny, no ghosts, no goblins and no other such make believe. Also, if you really believe that folks who lived 2-5K years ago have a better understanding of the world we live in than the people of today, perhaps you have not been paying attention to any aspect of human history.

Seriously guys, get a life and stop playing around in the world of make believe. Maybe try pretending for a minute that you live on a planet with a bunch of other people that you should try to find a way to relate to, instead of finding ways to build barriers.

God bless!

er..um..

gesundheit

or please, just stop sneezing.

Is that how you "relate" to people and "break down barriers"?

Your hostility reveals some insecurity behind your stance, im afraid. Try to be respectful, if not more open, to the possibility of something greater than yourself.

 

[Triple-T]

Is that how you "relate" to people and "break down barriers"?

Your hostility reveals some insecurity behind your stance, im afraid. Try to be respectful, if not more open, to the possibility of something greater than yourself.

Greater than me?

You've never met me, what makes you think there is something greater than me?

 

[3 to be 4]

Greater than me?

You've never met me, what makes you think there is something greater than me?

I know its hard to imagine such a thing.


I will leave you with one question.

What if you're wrong?

 

[Triple-T]

I know its hard to imagine such a thing.


I will leave you with one question.

What if you're wrong?

Seeing as there is nothing greater than I, how could I be wrong?

 

[mgteich]

I empathize people's problems with "organized" religion. However, I can only feel sorry for anyone who things there is nothing greater than themselves.

 

[DarrylS]

Another person with a super infllated ego who writes inflammatory posts only to back them up with some very tired Ali rhetoric, welcome to the surreal world of Pats Fans.com.. will take bets on how long it takes for you to be banned.

 

[Triple-T]

Ok. Messaged received. Sarcasm and absurdity don't translate very well in written form. So, I'll step it back.

While it easiest to equate religion to a belief in a "supernatural" that is not always the case, but since the majority of religions are based around the supernatural, I'll use that as the basis of any debate.

As to the issue of something "greater", I'll take that to mean something more important than me and that is easy. Of course there are things that are far more important than me. Society as a whole is infinitely more important. Without it, I'd be nothing. But to contemplate that some being, either human or otherwise is more important, I find that hard to believe. Not to say that what I add to the world is more important than anyone else's contribution, but the entire concept of someone being more important does not fly.

Why should I ever have to look at myself as something less than someone else? What does that even mean? If I was compared to another individual (either human or otherwise) who is entitled to make the determination of who is more important? Could it ever even be an objective determination?

 

[wistahpatsfan]

I empathize people's problems with "organized" religion. However, I can only feel sorry for anyone who things there is nothing greater than themselves.

Things that are greater than me:

My family (well, most of them)
Support from friends
Scientists who work to help the world
Led Zeppelin

I believe there is no god or gods, much less a valid religion. No need to feel sorry for athiests. You need to look in the mirror and get a sense of humor so you can understand sarcasm. The condascending tone religious folks have towards athiests is second to none, as if not believing in an invisible being who is involved in every aspect of nature and punishes and rewards you like a parent would a child is some kind of mental illness.

 

[Fogbuster]

Seeing as there is nothing greater than I, how could I be wrong?

How do you "know" that?? Have you ever had a near-death experience? Do you know what happens after you pass on? What if there is a very orderly world of existence waiting for you, but you are not prepared? A world that someone of a higher order of existence created? It's a little late then, isn't it??

Just asking. All the best.

//

 

[maverick4]

Are you arguing about whether God/absolute values exist, or about the truth/usefulness of organized religion? They are two completely different discussions.

By the way, please explain to me how a society can function and how integrity can persist if everyone believes in no God? Seems to me everyone would get away with as much as they could under law, or without getting caught.

 

[mgteich]

well said.

Are you arguing about whether God/absolute values exist, or about the truth/usefulness of organized religion? They are two completely different discussions.

By the way, please explain to me how a society can function and how integrity can persist if everyone believes in no God? Seems to me everyone would get away with as much as they could under law, or without getting caught.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Are you arguing about whether God/absolute values exist, or about the truth/usefulness of organized religion? They are two completely different discussions.

By the way, please explain to me how a society can function and how integrity can persist if everyone believes in no God? Seems to me everyone would get away with as much as they could under law, or without getting caught.

I disagree. Rigorous, and indeed draconian, law enforcement in the former Soviet Union kept crime quite frustrated; whereas a full-blown mafia emerged at the same time that the churches were again free to practice. This is still a single-case study, though it is better than saying "just look at [disgraced televangelist name here.] It didn't stop him."

The United States is one of the more religious countries in the industrialized world, yet we also boast one of the highest per capita incarceration rates.

Just as one can not argue that religion causes violence or war, since violence and war are not solely the products of religious wars or pogroms, one can not argue effectively that religion significantly curbs crime, at least not prima facie. By contrast, one can argue quite effectively that religion produces in believers a variety of attitudes and levels of hypocrisy, which are also present in the absence of religion. It is therefore likely that the attitudes and levels of hypocrisy (i.e., ability to act against one's own purported ethical or religious guideposts,) is a phenomenon reproduced among populations whether they are religious or not.

One can imagine an "ideal Christian," "ideal Moslem," "ideal Jew," etc., but these have nothing to do with the influence of religion on the society in question. What happens when a mass population professes these faiths is far more salient. We have only to look at Europe in the centuries leading up to this one, to give the lie to the platitude that religion curbs immorality (just as we need only look at Mao and Stalin to give the lie to the notion that religion is the root of all evil.)

PFnV

 

[Triple-T]

How do you "know" that?? Have you ever had a near-death experience? Do you know what happens after you pass on? What if there is a very orderly world of existence waiting for you, but you are not prepared? A world that someone of a higher order of existence created? It's a little late then, isn't it??

Just asking. All the best.

//

Honestly, I don't know that. Of course, I'm just like you and everyone else; no one knows what is past this world. (they may believe they know, but they don't.)

So, what if there is a heaven and a hell and a supreme being who will judge me? Am I going to be judged by my worship or lack thereof? Or will I be judged by my actions? I can say this, if I am going to be judged by some egomaniacal supreme being who is most concerned with my worship of it, then I hope I'm judged not worthy of being in it's presence.

What about those who find there is nothing past this world? What have they been doing with their time? Probably could have been better spent playing with their kids or working towards a better world.

And what if I'll be judged by my character? In that case, I think I'm in pretty good shape.

 

[Triple-T]

Are you arguing about whether God/absolute values exist, or about the truth/usefulness of organized religion? They are two completely different discussions.

By the way, please explain to me how a society can function and how integrity can persist if everyone believes in no God? Seems to me everyone would get away with as much as they could under law, or without getting caught.

PFnV pretty much nailed the response on how a society could function without an organized religion. (And may I add, well beyond how I would have articulated it.) But I'll add a little bit to his points. It is in my self interest to have a very robust and civil society. Why would it be in my interest to undermine it by exploiting any conceivable avenue within the law? That would be pretty irrational.

And to your first point, yes they are two separate matters. I'm talking about organized religion and not absolute truth, but I'm glad you bring it up. Whereas those participating in organized religion tend to already have a definition of absolute truth, I don't believe it is that easy. An absolute truth used to be that the sun orbited the earth and that there was nothing else in the universe. We now would laugh at such a suggestion. There are also those who to this day deny evolution. Someday, we will also laugh at them.

And that is just another reason that organized religion is an utter waste of time.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Religion has its place in society and more often than not, it's a good thing. I'm not really here to debate the existence of a higher being. However here are a couple of issues I have with it.

1-For profit mega churches not being taxed, yet bringing in millions of dollars of revenue each year.

2-Churches that openly attempt to influence their congregations in the realm of politics. This is grounds for revocation of a chuch's tax exempt status yet is rarely if ever enforced.

3-Catholics who look at places like Africa where AIDS and rampant overpopulation are major issues yet oppose making birth control available on the continent. The height of stupidity IMO.

4-The disdain evangelical christians have for science. These people actually believe Jesus walked with the dinosaurs which is completely absurd.

5-Killing in the name of relgion. This applies to Muslims and Christians as both faiths have repeatedly gone down this road historically. There are fanatics in both faiths.

 

[BelichickFan]

Well I'm agnostic, not atheist, but I do basically believe that religion is a pathetic crutch for people to make it through hard times. Something bad happened ? Pray and it'll all get better. A loved one died ? That's OK they're in a better place.

I'll admit I don't know where we are or where exactly the universe is - or what it is. But the concept of God is kind of silly.

 

[maverick4]

I disagree. Rigorous, and indeed draconian, law enforcement in the former Soviet Union kept crime quite frustrated; whereas a full-blown mafia emerged at the same time that the churches were again free to practice. This is still a single-case study, though it is better than saying "just look at [disgraced televangelist name here.] It didn't stop him."

PFnV, I did not say a society of no organized religion. I said (or meant, anyway) a society where everyone believes in 'no God'. Again, the two separate discussions in this thread are belief in God/absolute values and organized religion.

Am curious to hear people's responses to a society where no one believes in God/absolute values (post-modernism). Under this kind of society, it would be in the best interest of the individual to appear to abide by laws and to be moral, while getting away with as much as possible under the radar. There would be no personal integrity, except in instances where you must appear to show it.

 

[Fixit]

PFnV, I did not say a society of no organized religion. I said (or meant, anyway) a society where everyone believes in 'no God'. Again, the two separate discussions in this thread are belief in God/absolute values and organized religion.

Am curious to hear people's responses to a society where no one believes in God/absolute values (post-modernism). Under this kind of society, it would be in the best interest of the individual to appear to abide by laws and to be moral, while getting away with as much as possible under the radar. There would be no personal integrity, except in instances where you must appear to show it.

This whole argument that religion keeps people in line more than laws do is silly. Within the law there are only consequences; within the context of religion is the concept of "absolution", which frees an individual from any accountability so long as they repent/pretend to repent and ask for forgiveness.

On any given Sunday, when you may walk into a church for services, you will be sitting shoulder-to-shoulder with philanderers, cheats, murderers, rapists, and drug abusers, just as in any other segment of society...only they, according to their belief system, are still entitled to a beautiful afterlife.

Personally, I'm much more afraid of going to prison than going to Hell.

Whether one is an atheist, devout, or somewhere in between doesn't dictate how they live and act when no one's looking. That's all a question of individual character, nothing more or less.

 

[maverick4]

Whether one is an atheist, devout, or somewhere in between doesn't dictate how they live and act when no one's looking. That's all a question of individual character, nothing more or less.

I feel individual character, especially integrity, comes from a fundamental belief in certain absolute values (call it God if you want). To believe in no God is to believe that everything is relative and justifiable.

Does anyone disagree?