Too much scheme...

[cstjohn17]

I am over the Patriot loss, unfortunately we are used to them losing.

One thing I think about often is how hard the Patriots work to use formations and scheme to get a 4 yard gain. Shifts, motion, stacked formulations, multiple pre-snap reads and then a pass underneath for 5 yards.

Even Simms was "marveling" at how much effort the Patriots put into a short plays.

Other teams (Ravens, Giants, etc.) seem to run much simpler plays and let their athletes make plays.

In the end, too much scheme, too much time being smart. Hopefully next year they can simplify things and go out and make plays. Maybe they need more talent to play this style but in the current state they expect almost perfect execution which becomes increasingly difficult as the competition gets more intense.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I am over the Patriot loss, unfortunately we are used to them losing.

One thing I think about often is how hard the Patriots work to use formations and scheme their way to a 4 yard gain. Shifts, motion, stacked formulations, multiple pre-snap reads and then a pass underneath for 5 yards.

Even Simms was "marveling" at how much effort the Patriots put into a short plays.

Other teams (Ravens, Giants, etc.) seem to run much simpler plays and let their athletes make plays.

In the end, too much scheme, too much time being smart. Hopefully next year they can simplify things and go out and make plays. Maybe they need more talent to play this style but in the current state they expect almost perfect execution which becomes increasingly difficult as the competition gets more intense.

Nothing wrong with being smart as long as one can still be strong, if one is trying to be smart because one cannot be strong then there's a problem.

 

[Brady2Moss]

Nothing wrong with being smart as long as one can still be strong, if one is trying to be smart because one cannot be strong then there's a problem.

I think they have to scheme to get yards especially in the playoffs without Gronk, they lack playmakers on offense. I also think our players think too much during playoff games and play slow and tense, watching the Ravens they just didn't give a **** and played.

 

[Sangreal95]

I completely agree. Eveything has to be perfect to get a little pass to Welker for 5-8 yards. This does feel like a gimmick offense meant to mask athletic deficiencies. Let him go and get two real outside receivers and watch what Hernandez and Gronk can really do. Ever notice how over excited we get when welker cathes a pass that travels more than 20 yards in the air? It's because we haven't seen that from a wide receiver in a few years. I also still believe Brady can be deadly accurate with the long ball. That pass to Stallworth was the first time this season where I felt like awe **** teams are really in trouble now. Give him some real deep outside targets and Brady will destroy teams. Teams have no respect for our deep game AT ALL.

 

[Brady2Moss]

I completely agree. Eveything has to be perfect to get a little pass to Welker for 5-8 yards. This does feel like a gimmick offense meant to mask athletic deficiencies. Let him go and get two real outside receivers and watch what Hernandez and Gronk can really do. Ever notice how over excited we get when welker cathes a pass that travels more than 20 yards in the air? It's because we haven't seen that from a wide receiver in a few years. I also still believe Brady can be deadly accurate with the long ball. That pass to Stallworth was the first time this season where I felt like awe **** teams are really in trouble now. Give him some real deep outside targets and Brady will destroy teams. Teams have no respect for our deep game AT ALL.

You are about to get bombarded by people telling you that this team can't do anything without Welker and that we don't need an outside receiver :bricks: good luck my friend, I agree with you whole heartedly

 

[cstjohn17]

I completely agree. Eveything has to be perfect to get a little pass to Welker for 5-8 yards. This does feel like a gimmick offense meant to mask athletic deficiencies. Let him go and get two real outside receivers and watch what Hernandez and Gronk can really do. Ever notice how over excited we get when welker cathes a pass that travels more than 20 yards in the air? It's because we haven't seen that from a wide receiver in a few years. I also still believe Brady can be deadly accurate with the long ball. That pass to Stallworth was the first time this season where I felt like awe **** teams are really in trouble now. Give him some real deep outside targets and Brady will destroy teams. Teams have no respect for our deep game AT ALL.

As strange as it sounds when the Pats played Houston and Stallworth was on the field I felt really good about the offense. The deep shot was there, with Branch and Lloyd there was no threat.

Stallworth practiced for only a couple of days and I sure only had a few basic routes (Bubble screen, deep post, come back). Rather than over think they just asked him to go out and play, drive the Safeties back.

Maybe it is simple as upgrading Branch.

 

[FCB02062]

I've been saying it for quite some time...Belichick, for all his justly earned accolades, seems to spend a ton of time trying to be the smartest guy in the room...trading down for "value", trying to leave 0:00 on the clock at the end of a half, scheming the sh@t out of your offense just to get a five yard pass on third and four...

 

[Sangreal95]

Imagine having not one but TWO outside receivers that can do with Hernandez, Gronk, and Ridley on the field at the SAME time. Jesus how hard is it to get wide recievers that can run a few routes and threaten to beat their man deep?

Jodee

 

[Ring 6]

I am over the Patriot loss, unfortunately we are used to them losing.

One thing I think about often is how hard the Patriots work to use formations and scheme to get a 4 yard gain. Shifts, motion, stacked formulations, multiple pre-snap reads and then a pass underneath for 5 yards.

Even Simms was "marveling" at how much effort the Patriots put into a short plays.

Other teams (Ravens, Giants, etc.) seem to run much simpler plays and let their athletes make plays.

In the end, too much scheme, too much time being smart. Hopefully next year they can simplify things and go out and make plays. Maybe they need more talent to play this style but in the current state they expect almost perfect execution which becomes increasingly difficult as the competition gets more intense.

I don't understand your point.
They aren't trying to trick their way to 4 yards. They are trying to create mismatches and identify the coverage.
An example is why do you put a man in motion? Because if it is man, the defender follows, if it is zone, they shift.
Once the ball is snapped, you aren't 'relying on talent' any more or less if you shifted or motioned before it.

What do you think is gained by mot having a scheme?

 

[Rob0729]

If the Ravens defenders were manhandling the Pats' receivers, those shifts, motions, and stacked formations were what the Pats needed to do. All that movement and bunched formations helps to give receivers a clean release from the line and not allowing the defenders to as easily to lay wood when the receiver catches the ball.

I don't get the rational on this board some times. After every loss, all these wild theories come pouring in.

I can only say of all the things I was scratching my head about with the Pats during that game, complicated schemes were not on my list. In fact, I wondered if they weren't complicated enough because the Ravens' defense in the second half didn't have much problem figuring them out at least in the red zone.

 

[Ring 6]

I completely agree. Eveything has to be perfect to get a little pass to Welker for 5-8 yards. This does feel like a gimmick offense meant to mask athletic deficiencies. Let him go and get two real outside receivers and watch what Hernandez and Gronk can really do. Ever notice how over excited we get when welker cathes a pass that travels more than 20 yards in the air? It's because we haven't seen that from a wide receiver in a few years. I also still believe Brady can be deadly accurate with the long ball. That pass to Stallworth was the first time this season where I felt like awe **** teams are really in trouble now. Give him some real deep outside targets and Brady will destroy teams. Teams have no respect for our deep game AT ALL.

You do realize that the 2012 Patriot offense was the 3rd highest scoring in NFL hisotry? That the passing offense that you think has to have everything perfect to complete a little pass, threw for the 2nd most yards in NFL history the year before? That the 2010 and 2011 offense were the 10th and 12th highest scoring of all time?
Quite a case you make for the entire scheme being dysfunctional and needing to be scrapped.

 

[Rob0729]

As strange as it sounds when the Pats played Houston and Stallworth was on the field I felt really good about the offense. The deep shot was there, with Branch and Lloyd there was no threat.

Stallworth practiced for only a couple of days and I sure only had a few basic routes (Bubble screen, deep post, come back). Rather than over think they just asked him to go out and play, drive the Safeties back.

Maybe it is simple as upgrading Branch.

Funny, the spin the week before the Texans' playoff game was how the offense completely stalled when they were forced to throw deep.

And Stallworth had only one catch in that game (targeted one other time). Yes, it was a 63 yard TD, but he was a non-factor the rest of the game. And he only played 20 of the 70 offensive plays in that game (and I think some of them were in garbage time). Yet, his presence alone made you like the offense better. Really? I don't even notice him other than the TD pass.

 

[DocHoliday]

I don't understand your point.
They aren't trying to trick their way to 4 yards. They are trying to create mismatches and identify the coverage.
An example is why do you put a man in motion? Because if it is man, the defender follows, if it is zone, they shift.
Once the ball is snapped, you aren't 'relying on talent' any more or less if you shifted or motioned before it.

What do you think is gained by mot having a scheme?

I think the overall sentiment is that the Patriots relied too much on these schemes that, once neutralized by capable teams, revealed worrying ability to get the 'athletic' play.

 

[Ring 6]

I think they have to scheme to get yards especially in the playoffs without Gronk, they lack playmakers on offense. I also think our players think too much during playoff games and play slow and tense, watching the Ravens they just didn't give a **** and played.

Everyone has to scheme to get yards. Everyone schemes. The Patriots tend to do a lot presnap. It means nothing about anything other than that is how they set up their offense, and try to set up mismatches and read the coverage.

 

[Rob0729]

I think the overall sentiment is that the Patriots relied too much on these schemes that, once neutralized by capable teams, revealed worrying ability to get the 'athletic' play.

They don't overrely on those schemes. If those schemes don't work against a capable defense, not using them would just hurt the offense even more.

The thing is they missed Gronk in both the passing game and the running game. The Pats made too many mistakes (Hernandez not running out of bounds, Brady poor clock management, too many dropped passes at the worst time, etc.). Those hurt the Pats more than any over scheming or over relying on scheming. Scheming is part of what makes this offense special on most weeks.

 

[Ring 6]

I think the overall sentiment is that the Patriots relied too much on these schemes that, once neutralized by capable teams, revealed worrying ability to get the 'athletic' play.

But that is assinine.
Every team has a scheme, and calls plays.
Regardless of what you do presnap, there is exactly the same need for 'athletic play'.
Sending a man in motion doesn't mean you have to do anything different to execute a football play.
Its not like they ran triple reverses and statue of libertys

 

[Ring 6]

If the Ravens defenders were manhandling the Pats' receivers, those shifts, motions, and stacked formations were what the Pats needed to do. All that movement and bunched formations helps to give receivers a clean release from the line and not allowing the defenders to as easily to lay wood when the receiver catches the ball.

I don't get the rational on this board some times. After every loss, all these wild theories come pouring in.

I can only say of all the things I was scratching my head about with the Pats during that game, complicated schemes were not on my list. In fact, I wondered if they weren't complicated enough because the Ravens' defense in the second half didn't have much problem figuring them out at least in the red zone.

Come on. Clearly everyone knows that teams lose because they are too smart. We need stupid coaches so we can see if the smart things about this team are the reason in only made it to the SB last year and AFCCG this year.

 

[Sangreal95]

Stallworth was a non-factor because he didn't play the rest of the game.

What is clear is that the Patriots #1 receiver cannot beat his man once he is past the line when lining up wide more often then not.

When was the last time you saw Welker smoke a true outside corner rather than the a slot corner or linebacker getting mixed up in duties because of the scheme?

Nobody made a case for the entire system being dysfunctional. I think its great and could be better. You have the best QB in the league playing his final prime years without a true #1 receiver. That is negligence.

 

[Ring 6]

Stallworth was a non-factor because he didn't play the rest of the game.

What is clear is that the Patriots #1 receiver cannot beat his man once he is past the line when lining up wide more often then not.

When was the last time you saw Welker smoke a true outside corner rather than the a slot corner or linebacker getting mixed up in duties because of the scheme?

Nobody made a case for the entire system being dysfunctional. I think its great and could be better. You have the best QB in the league playing his final prime years without a true #1 receiver. That is negligence.

How many WRs have put up more receiving yards in the last 2 years than Wes Welker? HOw many WRs in history EVER put up consecutive years with more yards than Wes Welker has the last 2? Its less than 20.
How many TEs had more receiving yards or TDs than Gronk in 2011 when he was healthy for a full season.
This offense over the last 3 years has been the best offense in NFL history for any 3 year stretch.
You call that NEGLIGENT?

 

[DocHoliday]

But that is assinine.
Every team has a scheme, and calls plays.
Regardless of what you do presnap, there is exactly the same need for 'athletic play'.
Sending a man in motion doesn't mean you have to do anything different to execute a football play.
Its not like they ran triple reverses and statue of libertys

This team had little shot at jump balls with Gronkowski out, or deep completions not as a result of huge defensive errors.