Better off getting a Safety in the draft or in FA??

[BradyFTW!]

exactly my problems with Elam. He's fun to watch play but he WILL NOT hold up with his playing style, in the box at the next level. Would much rather a bigger physical presence who can match up with tight ends. Vaccaro is much better suited to do so.

Yeah, I'd be pumped if the Pats got Vaccaro in the 1st. He'll be an impact defender at the NFL level. I just don't see it happening, though - he'll go too early. Would probably take a fair bit of ammo to trade up into the range where he would be available.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

They've got a veteran safety, in Gregory. They've got a starting safety in McCourty. What they need is a big talent leader in the secondary, and they need that player around for a while. Use the first round pick and draft one of the best safeties in a great safety draft

Problem is who is the best safety in this draft? Not only is it a deep draft, but very flat as far as immediate contributors are concerned. Why draft Matt Elam, when you can get Shamarko Thomas who is basically the same player a round later? That's before getting to guys like DJ Swearinger and Jonathan Cyprien, who are also just as good as Elam. Why take a "looks like Tarzan" guy like Eric Reid when you can grab another falling Tarzan later in TJ McDonald? The only clear "best safety in the draft" type is Vaccaro, and even then, he needs to be developed as a player mentally and this team doesn't have a sterling record in that regard. Taking a safety high in a draft where all the prospects are at a similar level would be foolish in my mind.

 

[Deus Irae]

I was very optimistic on Chung, especially during 2010. But as his injuries continued to mount up was when my confidence was lost.

But yeah, I think Wilson's shown more in his rookie year than Chung had over his 4 years here.

Wilson was lousy for most of this year. In Chung's rookie year, he was doing well enough that people here were getting moist with anticipation of his future, and the few of us who weren't buying it were vastly outnumbered.

 

[Deus Irae]

Problem is who is the best safety in this draft?

Vaccarro, by most accounts

Not only is it a deep draft, but very flat as far as immediate contributors are concerned. Why draft Matt Elam, when you can get Shamarko Thomas who is basically the same player a round later?

They've pulled that move too many times with the DBs in recent years. You'll note that going in the opposite direction has worked out nicely with Jones and Hightower. The team needs a young impact rookie at safety, and it needs one at WR. I don't care how few picks the team has, they need to use them to get up in the draft and pick the cream of the crop at safety and WR.

That's before getting to guys like DJ Swearinger and Jonathan Cyprien, who are also just as good as Elam. Why take a "looks like Tarzan" guy like Eric Reid when you can grab another falling Tarzan later in TJ McDonald?

If those players are truly Elam's equals in the eyes of most scouts, they won't be falling into later rounds.

The only clear "best safety in the draft" type is Vaccaro, and even then, he needs to be developed as a player mentally and this team doesn't have a sterling record in that regard. Taking a safety high in a draft where all the prospects are at a similar level would be foolish in my mind.

So they should focus on more free agents like Ihedigbho and Gregory, then?

 

[Joey007]

Wilson was lousy for most of this year. In Chung's rookie year, he was doing well enough that people here were getting moist with anticipation of his future, and the few of us who weren't buying it were vastly outnumbered.

Again, I was optimistic with Chung as well, even though he didn't play a ton his rookie year. I wouldn't call Wilson lousy most of the year, he got off to a strong start, was getting roasted in a few games, notably the Seattle game, then he began to play a more limited role when Gregory got healthy. I didn't see much lousiness from Wilson when he was more limited. Basically, yes he got torched later on in the middle of the year, but he showed some strides at the beginning of the year. Not to mention that unlike Chung, he didn't have stone hands and caused turnovers.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

Vaccarro, by most accounts



They've pulled that move too many times with the DBs in recent years. You'll note that going in the opposite direction has worked out nicely with Jones and Hightower. The team needs a young impact rookie at safety, and it needs one at WR. I don't care how few picks the team has, they need to use them to get up in the draft and pick the cream of the crop at safety and WR.



If those players are truly Elam's equals in the eyes of most scouts, they won't be falling into later rounds.



So they should focus on more free agents like Ihedigbho and Gregory, then?

Nope. They should go spend 5-6 mil on a vet like Reed or Woodson next season, and draft a faller like John Boyett or Bacarri Rambo on day 3 who would be a third rounder in a different year.

 

[Deus Irae]

Nope. They should go spend 5-6 mil on a vet like Reed or Woodson next season, and draft a faller like John Boyett or Bacarri Rambo on day 3 who would be a third rounder in a different year.

The Patriots have picks in rounds 1,2,3 and 7.

You want them to drop $6 million on a one-year stopgap player and then draft a stiff with a pick they don't have?

 

[Joey007]

Nope. They should go spend 5-6 mil on a vet like Reed or Woodson next season, and draft a faller like John Boyett or Bacarri Rambo on day 3 who would be a third rounder in a different year.

I think Darren Woodson's pretty content with his job at ESPN.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

The Patriots have picks in rounds 1,2,3 and 7.

You want them to drop $6 million on a one-year stopgap player and then draft a stiff with a pick they don't have?

You want them to draft an undersized guy who can't cover tight ends and has marginal coverage instincts in the first round and expect him to help a team that wants to win now?

 

[Get it shawtaay]

John Boyett will be a better pro than Matt Elam. Wait and see.

 

[Deus Irae]

Again, I was optimistic with Chung as well, even though he didn't play a ton his rookie year. I wouldn't call Wilson lousy most of the year, he got off to a strong start, was getting roasted in a few games, notably the Seattle game, then he began to play a more limited role when Gregory got healthy. I didn't see much lousiness from Wilson when he was more limited. Basically, yes he got torched later on in the middle of the year, but he showed some strides at the beginning of the year. Not to mention that unlike Chung, he didn't have stone hands and caused turnovers.

We were watching different Tavon Wilsons.

 

[Joey007]

Nope. They should go spend 5-6 mil on a vet like Reed or Woodson next season, and draft a faller like John Boyett or Bacarri Rambo on day 3 who would be a third rounder in a different year.

Alright, I'll take it seriously and assume you mean Charles Woodson. What makes you think Woodson will be available?? Don't assume we'll sign someone if they're not even a FA.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

Alright, I'll take it seriously and assume you mean Charles Woodson. What makes you think Woodson will be available?? Don't assume we'll sign someone if they're not even a FA.

He's owed 10 million dollars next year to be a SS or a nickel CB, which is Ted Thompson speak for he's getting cut.

 

[Joey007]

We were watching different Tavon Wilsons.

So we are.

Again I understand that yes there were times where he looked lousy. But You're saying you didn't see any good play from him at all this year??

 

[Deus Irae]

So we are.

Again I understand that yes there were times where he looked lousy. But You're saying you didn't see any good play from him at all this year??

No, as I said, I think he was lousy for most of the year. He had a few moments, but they were few and far between (I don't really count gift INTs as moments, just as I didn't count them for Arrington). That was no different, IMO, than Chung as a rookie.

I was one who wanted Wilson to be kept in as a starter prior to the Talib trade. I was saying that it would be better to live with his growing pains than to put Chung back in, because the team needs to see if he can develop. I just didn't see much of that development.

I don't hate the notion of bringing in a guy like Reed, if the Patriots can free up more space than I think they'll be looking to, but I look at this team, and I see the cap space and just a possible Mankins restructure, and I see

Brady
Ridley
Gronk
Welker
Lloyd
Hernandez/Rookie WR3 taken in round 1 or very high in round 2
Solder
Mankins
Wendell
Connolly
Cannon

Ninkovich
Love/Amstead
Wilfork
Jones
Spikes
Mayo
Hightower
Dennard
Talib (or other quality man-to-man CB1)
McCourty
Rookie S taken in round 1 or very high round 2/Gregory

and I like that group, a lot.

 

[mgteich]

A) I note your endorsement of our OL, even without Vollmer. I seem to recall your needing better than Wendell and Connolly. I'm fine with them.

B) I note that you use a first rounder OR very high second rounder on a WR and on a safety. I don't think that we have these two picks without giving a first from next year.

No, as I said, I think he was lousy for most of the year. He had a few moments, but they were few and far between (I don't really count gift INTs as moments, just as I didn't count them for Arrington). That was no different, IMO, than Chung as a rookie.

I was one who wanted Wilson to be kept in as a starter prior to the Talib trade. I was saying that it would be better to live with his growing pains than to put Chung back in, because the team needs to see if he can develop. I just didn't see much of that development.

I don't hate the notion of bringing in a guy like Reed, if the Patriots can free up more space than I think they'll be looking to, but I look at this team, and I see the cap space and just a possible Mankins restructure, and I see

Brady
Ridley
Gronk
Welker
Lloyd
Hernandez/Rookie WR3 taken in round 1 or very high in round 2
Solder
Mankins
Wendell
Connolly
Cannon

Ninkovich
Love/Amstead
Wilfork
Jones
Spikes
Mayo
Hightower
Dennard
Talib (or other quality man-to-man CB1)
McCourty
Rookie S taken in round 1 or very high round 2/Gregory

and I like that group, a lot.

 

[Sciz]

I'm not a fan of putting off filling holes until the draft for two reasons. First of all, what happens where there's a run on safeties in the early 20s and the Pats either choose not to or can't trade up to grab one? Second, it's hard to expect many draft picks to come in and start right away. The non-first round picks that have done that are pretty rare, and even plenty of the first rounders didn't start right away.

 

[Joey007]

I'm not a fan of putting off filling holes until the draft for two reasons. First of all, what happens where there's a run on safeties in the early 20s and the Pats either choose not to or can't trade up to grab one? Second, it's hard to expect many draft picks to come in and start right away. The non-first round picks that have done that are pretty rare, and even plenty of the first rounders didn't start right away.

Exactly why I'm stuck on signing Reed.

 

[Deus Irae]

A) I note your endorsement of our OL, even without Vollmer. I seem to recall your needing better than Wendell and Connolly. I'm fine with them.

You can only do so much in a season. Looking at relative strengths and weaknesses, combining that with cap space and draft picks, I see it as a higher priority at S and WR, and can live with putting off OL and DL until next year if needed.

B) I note that you use a first rounder OR very high second rounder on a WR and on a safety. I don't think that we have these two picks without giving a first from next year.

They've got a first, second, third and seventh. I would be absolutely fine if they traded their 3rd and 7th to move up in the second. That should get them at least into the top 50. It runs counter to what BB usually does, but heck, if they want to toss in a pick from next year to get higher, I'd be more than ok with that, too. And, while we're at it, I might be happy if they traded more picks from next year to get one of the DTs (if the right one were to fall).

 

[mgteich]

i do NOT disagree with your approach of drafting two good men in the top 50 at safety and at WR, and using our picks to move into a position to draft those two players. I do think lots of others here would disagree.

I am also fine with waiting a year with regard to drafting linemen.

As a nitpick, you indicated that you needed 2 very high seconds. Top 50 does work.

You can only do so much in a season. Looking at relative strengths and weaknesses, combining that with cap space and draft picks, I see it as a higher priority at S and WR, and can live with putting off OL and DL until next year if needed.



They've got a first, second, third and seventh. I would be absolutely fine if they traded their 3rd and 7th to move up in the second. That should get them at least into the top 50. It runs counter to what BB usually does, but heck, if they want to toss in a pick from next year to get higher, I'd be more than ok with that, too. And, while we're at it, I might be happy if they traded more picks from next year to get one of the DTs (if the right one were to fall).