the BIGGEST problem with the Pats passing attack

[ALP]

why is Gronk so special though? I do not think anyone is arguing that he is not...and i believe the reason he is is because the guy attacks (and is allowed to attack, and has routes made for him that attack) the 15-30 yd range

he is special because as good as welker is in the 4-10yd range, thats how good Gronk is in the 15-30 yd range, namely unstoppable

if Gronk instead attacked the 4-10yd range, we would be having the same prob in the passing game as we did against Balt, the fact that we have an amazing intermediate weapon changes this

however you do not need to have only the best option in the league in the 15-30 yd range in order to attack that space, you can attack it w/ lesser players, the success will be lower, but you must still attack that portion on the field, and not simply ignore it and live off of the 10yds after the line of scrimmage

 

[Deus Irae]

the BIGGEST problem with the Pats passing attack

is its inability to be fully healthy when facing top teams in the playoffs.

2007 - Brady injured
2009 - Welker out
2011 - Gronk hobbled
2012 - Gronk out

The team transitioned to an offensive juggernaut after 2006. Since that time, there's only been one playoff season where the offense was healthy, and that was the 2010 season. .

 

[Koma]

The thing that puzzled me with the offense is that there were 3 or 4 occasions against Baltimore where Brady evaded the rush, moved around in the pocket, had between 5-7 seconds to throw and couldn't find anyone open.

When a QB is in this situation against the Patriots defense (I've seen this in other games, as well), they often end up throwing to a receiver who the defense lost track of and is wide open.

The same thing happened against the Jets in 2010. I'm not sure how a situation that usually turns into a huge advantage for the offense is a dead end for the Patriots, at least in the playoffs.

 

[jnug]

I think that Brady is such a student of the game that instead of letting the play develop and taking a shot, stuck in his head is "do not throw the ball late over the middle" and he hesitates. One of the writers wrote about that exact play and claimed that Hernandez and somebody else, Lloyd I think were both open on the play and Brady did not pull the trigger.

 

[andrewgarrr]

The biggest problem is injuries.

The end.

This. End thread please.

 

[jnug]

Injuries injuries...pretty obvious why some in the NFL want an 18 game regular season but ya' have to wonder how deep on the depth chart teams would have to go in the post season after 18 regular season games.

 

[Lansdowne]

I think a big problem (maybe not the biggest, but still big) is the Patriots' inability to successfully develop homegrown wide receivers over the years. Not tight ends, mind you... wide receivers.

Victor Cruz, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham
Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Donald Driver, James Jones
Marques Colston, Devery Henderson, Robert Meachem
Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Nate Washington
Amani Toomer
Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison
Hines Ward, Antwaan Randle-El
Deion Branch, David Givens, Troy Brown

These are all the homegrown WR's on teams who won the Super Bowl dating back to the Patriots' last SB title. Only the 2007 Giants had minimal impact, and only because I didn't include career scrub David Tyree who made his biggest impact on one lucky catch.

I get that this is all revisionist history, but wouldn't it have been great if the Pats could have gotten Jennings or Brandon Marshall or Colston instead of wasting it on Chad Jackson? Or Mike Wallace instead of Brandon Tate? Or Antonio Brown instead of Taylor Price? The only homegrown WR the Pats had with some success is Julian Edelman, who they converted from QB to WR and he couldn't stay on the field long enough. If the Pats had the WR depth of the Packers for the last few years, on top of the two TE's to cause mismatches for opposing defenses, they would be unstoppable. But now the key is to jam the middle and force the Pats to make plays on the outside. The Pats don't have that WR and haven't since Moss was traded.

I think a bigger issue with the team overall is defensive toughness (which was a key difference in the SB winning Pats and the Pats we have had since then), and the biggest issue has been bad luck with injuries to key players often at the worst possible time, but since this thread is about the passing attack, I think the lack of continuity is a problem. We are a team in need of young, but experienced impact WR's, and you have to develop those unless you want to overpay in free agency or trade.

 

[DarrylStingley]

Health has been a huge problem.

But to me, you really cannot control that and it's almost not worth discussing. They need to do what they can to keep guys on the field.

Regarding the field, it's more the lack of outside receivers than intermediate routes. I agree that they need to hit on more passes past 10 yards and it was maddening to see so many 8-yard plays on first down this past game.

But the Ravens and NY Giants both crammed the middle and dared to beat them on the outside, and the Pats were unable to do that in both of their last season ending games.

Mangini and Troy talked about this in an interview on Mut & Merloni this week that I'd recommend people listen to.

 

[Nordberg]

Game planning vs the Patriots offense

HC: Have you had a chance to take a look at the Patriots offense yet?

DC: Yea......we only have to cover 10 yards off the line of scrimmage.

HC: You mean with DL & LB's?

DC: No.....with everybody.

HC: What if they take a shot downfield?

DC: The only time they go downfield is with their slot receiver.

HC: Well then.....we still have to watch out for that.

DC: Umm......not really

HC: Why?

DC: He's all of 5'7 and not very fast. The QB will have to make a perfect throw every time.

HC: O.K.....let's play nickle and dime all game and flood the first 10 yards off the line of scimmage.

 

[ALP]

Game planning vs the Patriots offense

HC: Have you had a chance to take a look at the Patriots offense yet?

DC: Yea......we only have to cover 10 yards off the line of scrimmage.

HC: You mean with DL & LB's?

DC: No.....with everybody.

HC: What if they take a shot downfield?

DC: The only time they go downfield is with their slot receiver.

HC: Well then.....we still have to watch out for that.

DC: Umm......not really

HC: Why?

DC: He's all of 5'7 and not very fast. The QB will have to make a perfect throw every time.

HC: O.K.....let's play nickle and dime all game and flood the first 10 yards off the line of scimmage.

EXACTLY the point

but the reason we dont attack past 10 yds isnt talent, its mentality

 

[Observer]

They need to do a better job managing the roster to limit playing time of key players so that they are more likely to stay healthy. Also they shouldn't drop easy catches.

 

[Nordberg]

EXACTLY the point

but the reason we dont attack past 10 yds isnt talent, its mentality

It's a little bit of both., they don't have the personnel especially if Gronkowski is out.Those down the field throws to guys like Wes Welker turn into low percentage plays. Brady literally has to put the ball on a dime.

I'd love to see Brady get to throw to a guy like Julio Jones at least once in his career..... and please don't give me Randy Moss. I still consider him a finesse receiver

 

[Rob0729]

Health has been a huge problem.

But to me, you really cannot control that and it's almost not worth discussing. They need to do what they can to keep guys on the field.

Regarding the field, it's more the lack of outside receivers than intermediate routes. I agree that they need to hit on more passes past 10 yards and it was maddening to see so many 8-yard plays on first down this past game.

But the Ravens and NY Giants both crammed the middle and dared to beat them on the outside, and the Pats were unable to do that in both of their last season ending games.

Mangini and Troy talked about this in an interview on Mut & Merloni this week that I'd recommend people listen to.

Lloyd has been an outside receiving threat (45 of his 74 receptions have been sideline catches). Troy doesn't like Lloyd because he doesn't like receiver who he considers soft (unfortunately, half the receivers including many of the good to great ones avoid contact) and won't give him credit for what he does.

They need more receiving threats, preferably another outside receiver. But I don't think it is a deep threat issue as much and I think the Pats addressed the problems that killed them vs. the Jets and Giants. Maybe not with enough receivers, but they have.

If Edelman and Gronk were healthy, we wouldn't have been having this conversation. Edelman would be a second outside receiver and Gronk is uncoverable. The problem with the receiving corp was health, not lack of an outside receiver or deep threat. Replace Branch with Edelman and Hooman with Gronk and this is a radically different offense.

 

[Rob0729]

It's a little bit of both., they don't have the personnel especially if Gronkowski is out.Those down the field throws to guys like Wes Welker turn into low percentage plays. Brady literally has to put the ball on a dime.

I'd love to see Brady get to throw to a guy like Julio Jones at least once in his career..... and please don't give me Randy Moss. I still consider him a finesse receiver

Gronk is just as effective as Julio Jones as a difference maker on offense, probably more so. Jones had 79 catches for 1,198 yards and 10 TDs in 16 games. Gronk had 55 receptions for 790 yards and 11 TDs in 11 games which projects out to 80 catches for 1149 yards, and 16 TDs.

Unless the Pats replace Welker with a big bodies deep threat, the only way they can get one is they find one in the second or third round because they probably cannot afford to waste a first round pick on a receiver when they have other needs.

Every team can have only so many difference making receivers. The Pats arguably have two with Welker and Gronk. Assuming Welker is back, it is poor management t spend big money on another receiving target.

Fact of the matter, the Pats had control of the game until Flacco started to air it out and keep his defense off the field to regroup. The collapse of the Pats' defense is what killed the Pats in the AFCCG. Yet everyone wants is another receiving target. What people should be calling for instead of trying to get Greg Jennings or Dwayne Bowe, we should be calling for the Pats to pursue Dashon Goldson or Henry Melton or any number of top defensive free agents that are out there.

 

[Triumph]

Two biggest problems*, IMO:

- Too much shotgun. Doesn't keep the D guessing enough. That extra uncertainty of run vs. pass might help free receivers more in just enough plays to keep possessions alive and get scores.

- Underutilizing the RBs. RBs are used plenty in the screen game, but nowhere near enough as primary options in real passing routes. Faulk was the last guy to have his number called routinely on flares out of the backfield. The lack of using the RBs in this manner allows the D to focus attention on Welker, the TEs and Lloyd. This would have helped a ton vs. Baltimore.

The Pats have a nice run game that could be great if they used it more.

I dont why NE didnt throw Baltimore a curve and come out running the ball with Ridely, Vereen, Woody and Bolden? Baltimore knew it would be Brady back there passing all night and the Pats obliged them. The old Pats would never let a TE injury stop the whole machine. No one part was greater than the other with the exception of Brady.

Sometimes it seems like McDaniels has too many weapons and doesnt know what to do with them all.

 

[Kontradiction]

Keenan Allen, Cordarrelle Patterson, Terrance Williams, Justin Hunter and Da'Rick Rogers fit the mold physically.

Any of those interest you and are they obtainable given most are first or second round graded players.

Hunter, IMO, would be exactly what I'm talking about. A physical, big bodied specimen that can make all the catches, run all the routes, and threatens every level of the field. If we draft him, and he sticks, he would help the red zone offense should Gronk ever have to leave the field for an extended period time again.

 

[Rob0729]

The Pats have a nice run game that could be great if they used it more.

I dont why NE didnt throw Baltimore a curve and come out running the ball with Ridely, Vereen, Woody and Bolden? Baltimore knew it would be Brady back there passing all night and the Pats obliged them. The old Pats would never let a TE injury stop the whole machine. No one part was greater than the other with the exception of Brady.

Sometimes it seems like McDaniels has too many weapons and doesnt know what to do with them all.

I think it had to do with the fact the TEs couldn't block a 90 year old grandma with a bad hip.

 

[MoneyFX]

I agree. I thought the Patriots offense may have played right into the hands of the Ravens defense.

 

[Patriot Missile]

The Pats have a nice run game that could be great if they used it more.

I dont why NE didnt throw Baltimore a curve and come out running the ball with Ridely, Vereen, Woody and Bolden? Baltimore knew it would be Brady back there passing all night and the Pats obliged them. The old Pats would never let a TE injury stop the whole machine. No one part was greater than the other with the exception of Brady.

Sometimes it seems like McDaniels has too many weapons and doesnt know what to do with them all.

I agree. Although the Pats weren't lighting it up with the running game and would of been better served with Gronk as a blocker. They were still averaging just around 4 yards a carry which wasn't too bad. It was also slowing down the edge rushers that hounded Brady all day long. A little more patience by the coaches and we might have been able to create rhythm in the running game and possible better play opportunities instead of being in shotgun. Then again maybe they fall flat on their faces if they go that route? Bottom line they lost running plays and TOP by not converting some of those 3rd downs.

 

[RIpats88]

I guess I just question whether the "welker centric" offense is the way to go...so far in our playoff losses we haven't been able to even put up 20points...and thats pathetic.

since switching over to a more tight-end oriented offense with Hernandez/Gronkowski, welkers role sort of becomes redundant....sure we've been able to put up great stats in the regular season...but i'm more concerned about the post-season where teams have learned how to bottle up this passing attack because it's too predictable.

I view acquiring a physical mis-match outside the hash-marks WR and defensive help as more of a priority than giving welker 10-11million$$ IMO

I would like to see McDaniels draft a WR early(this guy drafted some absolute studs for Denver). given that Gronk/hernandez stay healthy I feel like an offense of:

Outside WR/Gronk/Hernandez/Lloyd would be much harder to defend.