The Problem I See with the Pats Linebackers

[Froob]

I'd be very surprised to see Gregory cut. Seems to me he's an excellent guy to have as a back-up--a solid professional who won't lose you games when called on throughout the season.

I do completely agree/hope that he won't be starting or playing a ton of snaps.

I too, would be shocked if Gregory was cut. He was really solid. But, I'd rather have someone better out there. Definitely keep Gregory for depth.

 

[Deus Irae]

The linebackers would be better served by the team using more of a traditional 3-4 base. Spikes is horrible in coverage, and Mayo is little better than average. Hightower's coverage skills will likely still improve a bit, but he's not much better than Spikes at the moment.

Someone (Sicilian) mentioned the safeties, and that brings up an excellent point. McCourty is better at safety than he was at corner, but he's still learning the position, and he's not instinctive enough to be really solid at the job yet. Gregory doesn't belong higher than S3, and he's probably not really much more than an S4. He's slow in his reactions, doesn't tackle particularly well, and he takes some really horrific angles. That's not really a recipe for a quality safety.

Draft another S, switch back to a more traditional 3-4, and you'll see the center of the field defended much better, IMO. The question then would be whether or not the D-line could handle the job. I'm not sure the team has the 3-4 DEs needed.

Just my $.02

 

[Sicilian]

The linebackers would be better served by the team using more of a traditional 3-4 base. Spikes is horrible in coverage, and Mayo is little better than average. Hightower's coverage skills will likely still improve a bit, but he's not much better than Spikes at the moment.

Someone (Sicilian) mentioned the safeties, and that brings up an excellent point. McCourty is better at safety than he was at corner, but he's still learning the position, and he's not instinctive enough to be really solid at the job yet. Gregory doesn't belong higher than S3, and he's probably not really much more than an S4. He's slow in his reactions, doesn't tackle particularly well, and he takes some really horrific angles. That's not really a recipe for a quality safety.

Draft another S, switch back to a more traditional 3-4, and you'll see the center of the field defended much better, IMO. The question then would be whether or not the D-line could handle the job. I'm not sure the team has the 3-4 DEs needed.

Just my $.02

It's an interesting point and would make sense to me. It's just logical that it's easier to cover the middle of the field when you've got the extra linebacker out there rather than a defensive lineman. It also allows you to disguise your coverages better, because you never know who the extra rusher or extra drop-back could be from your front seven.

Obviously Wilfork is fine in either 4-3 or 3-4 sets, but the next guys I see that seem to the have the playstyle are Deaderick and Love, who are both serviceable players but not good enough IMO for that kind of assignment. It also brings up the question, where would Chandler Jones fit in that scheme? I'm not sure he's got the size to play 3-4 defensive end, but I don't really see him as a 3-4 OLB either. He would have to adapt to one of those two positions, or be relegated to a pass rush specialist (and I think he has the talent to be more than that).

 

[Sciz]

How does going to a 3-4 help the LB coverage issues? I'm not seeing anything in the 3-4 that they can't do from the 4-3, and unless Jones is playing 3-4 DE, then it's taking speed off the field.

 

[borg]

I love Dane Fletcher I really hope he can come back and be that Nickle linebacker. Another year of Hightower Spikes Mayo together I think our linebackers are going to be our strength.

Someone asked Reiss during a recent chat if Fletcher's return would solve some of the Pats LB coverage issues, And Reiss' response was Fletcher was never really in the mix to begin with

 

[Get it shawtaay]

I don't agree with this. Gregory clearly isn't who you want out there as a starter, but he's about on par with most of the 3rd or 4th safeties I can think of off the top of my head.

In general it seems the readers of this board overstate the struggles of some of the New England defensive backs. Steve Gregory is bad, but most defensive backs in the NFL are bad.

Anyway, I just looked it up. Even if Gregory is passed by a veteran and Tavon Wilson on the depth chart, 1.5 of his 2 million in 2013 is guaranteed, so cutting him wouldn't do the team much good.

 

[GoWhalers]

I think posters here are right on regarding safety play influencing the perceived performance of the linebackers group. I thought the linebackers looked pretty decent in coverage against the Ravens.

The safety strategies employed this season seemed very ineffective -- unable to provide help on outside long balls, big gaps in zone coverages, etc. It seemed like the safety play was seldom able to force the opposing offense into trying to attack the Patriot's areas of defensive strength.

I'm completely unqualified to determine if this was due to intentional schemes or to players' (in)abilities, but I suspect it was a combination of both.

 

[aluminum seats]

How does going to a 3-4 help the LB coverage issues?

I think just for the simple reason that if there's 4 guys they'll have less space to cover per man.

 

[aluminum seats]

I'm kind of shocked this many people are so flip about getting rid of Spikes. Particularly after another playoff game where the Patriots were manhandled physically, the logical conclusion is to ship out your most physically violent front seven player.

Then again, lots of people don't seem to mind Welker getting run out of here on a rail, so I guess there's something to say about judgments being made around these parts.

I like Spikes a lot, and agree that he brings a thumping quality that the Pats overall seem to lack a bit.

The thought behind even throwing the possibility out there was that maybe there's some redundancy with his skills and Hightowers, and Hightower may have more upside. (Also, trying for a thought on a trade that isn't the typical fan suggestion of trading a bunch of what you don't want anyway for something great, which is always annoying.)

 

[Sciz]

I think just for the simple reason that if there's 4 guys they'll have less space to cover per man.

That's what I was assuming, but I don't think it's a very good reason. If Belichick really wanted to drop 4 guys into underneath coverage, then he could just drop a DE. Both Ninkovich and Jones did this at times. And if the Pats were go drop all four of their 3-4 LBs into coverage, that'd leave just the three big DLs rushing the passer, which seems like a less than ideal situation.

 

[DocHoliday]

The weird 4-3 we have is here to stay.

One of the big reasons we left the 3-4 is because the personnel were near impossible to find.

 

[Nunchucks]

I really like our LB group. Remember, in the red-zone Spikes is really good because he doesn't have to run so far to cover.

Would like to see better coverage by the secondary, leave the LBs intact, they will get better as they grow together as a unit.

 

[Deus Irae]

The weird 4-3 we have is here to stay.

One of the big reasons we left the 3-4 is because the personnel were near impossible to find.

They couldn't find 3-4 linebackers. Well, they've got them now.

 

[Ring 6]

It seems to me the Pats are in an unusual position with their linebackers. In most areas, if there's a problem that should be addressed, there's a clear solution to it (in theory, at least) even if acheiving that solution is difficult: the WR group, say, is thin. The safety position needs an upgrade, etc.

Linebackers seem a little different. Mayo, Spikes, and Hightower are all solid players. Hightower was just a rookie, and will hopefully take a leap next year. But when he was drafted, the comparison to Spikes was made. And sure enough, as a starting group these guys all seem to share the same problems in coverage/space.

That issue is continually noted, but I'm not sure what should be done about it. A guy like Fletcher would be better in coverage, for example, but to this point he hasn't been seen as a starting caliber linebacker. Obviously you have guys rotate in and out, but at a certain point the hope is that your starting guys will be able to handle any situation.

So what's the answer? Shift back to the 3-4? Understand that it's hard for any positional grouping to be perfect? Consider moving a guy like Spikes to find someone better in coverage?

The 43 or 34 isn't going to change what LBs do in coverage.
There are very few LBs in the NFL who can cover anyone legitimately one on one. Our LBs would be fine if the secondary covered well.

 

[celticboy04]

Greetings,
I was thoroughly convinced the Patriots were going back to the 3-4 when they drafted Hightower and Chandler Jones, with both spending a lot of time rushing the passer. I thought it was very odd they drafted him for that much coverage.
Granted, Denver runs a 4-3, but lineback Von Miller gets a lot of sacks by how they use him.

Celticboy04

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

they are great against the run...but putrid against the pass...that needs to change somehow

 

[Sticky Caulk]

Everything I've seen from Dane Fletcher shows that he isn't good at pass coverage. Not sure why some people believe he will be better than Spikes.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Everything I've seen from Dane Fletcher shows that he isn't good at pass coverage. Not sure why some people believe he will be better than Spikes.

He is better than spikes in coverage...spikes is horrid in coverage. A rock would probably cover better
Spikes is a thumper and a great run stuffer in this league...but coverage...yeah no

 

[DocHoliday]

They couldn't find 3-4 linebackers. Well, they've got them now.

Seems like a huge waste of Jones though doesn't it? Not really capable (at least now) to be an OLB, nor nowhere stout enough to be a 3-4 DE.

If the Patriots moved to the 3-4, what would we run?

Armstead-Wilfork-Deaderick

Jones/Hightower-Spikes-Mayo-Ninkovitch/Hightower

??

 

[TomPatriot]

Spikes can wall TEs and clog lanes on drags and slants in a zone. He plays well enough in over formations but he really shouldn't be on the field on passing downs or in any man coverage. He has Ray Ray Lewis cover skill.