Let's Lock Talib Up Now Longterm before FA

[Double TE]

Also don't forget we have Jeff Demps for next year! They'll likely restructure Brady's contract as well as his cap number is $21 mil next yr.

 

[PatsFan2]

I'm interested to see what Vollmer's market value is. On one hand he's young and proven to be a dominant tackle when in aside from when he's played injured. On the other hand, he's spent a majority of the past 2 seasons nursing lingering back issues which date back to college. The value will be even less to us IMO considering our OL coach and Cannon's admirable fill in's when Vollmer was out.

Did you all see the Job Vollmer did on JJ Watt? JJ Watt make average Tackles look stupid Vollmer did a job on him, he got some shots on Brady but Vollmer for the most part stalled Watt's initial charge which is quite a charge...Vollmer when healthy is a Big- Strong Athletic Elite Tackle he has to be locked up...Brady appreciates him.

 

[Big-T]

Also don't forget we have Jeff Demps for next year! They'll likely restructure Brady's contract as well as his cap number is $21 mil next yr.

Add to that there's a decent amount of cap space available before any restructuring.

There's a chance with a Brady restructure everyone could be kept.

New England Patriots Salary Cap 2013

$6.4m carry over too based on his numbers for this year too.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

Talib was, at no point, coming to the table expecting Brandon Carr money. He has been too hit or miss on the field with too much going on off of the field, though I'm of the belief that the off the field problems are not so much Talib and much more the people around him. Unless Talib is insane or the Redskins are interested, the Patriots will be able to work out a decent deal for both sides with him. Better believe there will be plenty of room to cut bait.

Ty Law was never going to re-sign for us. He was openly searching for the highest dollar amount, and that is never the Patriots. I think we can all agree that not signing Asante when there was reportedly an opportunity late 2006 or 2007 offseason was a mistake. Second guessers only gained momentum watching Butler, Wheatley, Wilhite, etc. flounder. The numbers he got with Philly were asinine, but not long before he left in FA there was a chance to sign him for a decent deal.

 

[upstater1]

Low signing bonus, high per annum.

That's the only way to go with Talib.

 

[patfanken]

Did you all see the Job Vollmer did on JJ Watt? JJ Watt make average Tackles look stupid Vollmer did a job on him, he got some shots on Brady but Vollmer for the most part stalled Watt's initial charge which is quite a charge...Vollmer when healthy is a Big- Strong Athletic Elite Tackle he has to be locked up...Brady appreciates him.

My God, doesn't anyone have some perspective? As Pats fans we want to pay and keep everyone. It just doesn't happen. A couple of points/questions.

1. What the franchise tag for a CB these days. If its not too high, it might be the way to go with him.

2. Jason has us estimated at being $16MM under the cap right now. I'm not sure how accurate that is. Lets say we have an additional $5MM more in carry over. That's just $21MM under the cap. That's not much even if all we had to do was sign our own FA's. Welker wants 9-10, Volmer's gonna want at least $8, Edelman 3-4....and there's your cap space....gone before you even get to Talib and whatever CB's get.

3. So what about Talib, Woodhead and all the others. What about the possibility of adding even middle class FA's. What about signing our draft picks? You can't sign everyone. Difficult choices are going to have to be made....and we aren't going to like them. Why? Because we are fans and fans never see the entire picture. We want what we want and we want it NOW!

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Did you all see the Job Vollmer did on JJ Watt? JJ Watt make average Tackles look stupid Vollmer did a job on him, he got some shots on Brady but Vollmer for the most part stalled Watt's initial charge which is quite a charge...Vollmer when healthy is a Big- Strong Athletic Elite Tackle he has to be locked up...Brady appreciates him.

There's no question he's a beast on the field. The question is a) are we willing to commit long term to someone who's had back issues for the greater part of the past 2 seasons and b) can we even afford it with all the expiring contracts this year and in upcoming years/ is it worth it given the play of Canon and Dante's ability to do more with less.

 

[JackBauer]

My God, doesn't anyone have some perspective? As Pats fans we want to pay and keep everyone. It just doesn't happen. A couple of points/questions.

1. What the franchise tag for a CB these days. If its not too high, it might be the way to go with him.

2. Jason has us estimated at being $16MM under the cap right now. I'm not sure how accurate that is. Lets say we have an additional $5MM more in carry over. That's just $21MM under the cap. That's not much even if all we had to do was sign our own FA's. Welker wants 9-10, Volmer's gonna want at least $8, Edelman 3-4....and there's your cap space....gone before you even get to Talib and whatever CB's get.

3. So what about Talib, Woodhead and all the others. What about the possibility of adding even middle class FA's. What about signing our draft picks? You can't sign everyone. Difficult choices are going to have to be made....and we aren't going to like them. Why? Because we are fans and fans never see the entire picture. We want what we want and we want it NOW!

Seems pretty obvious you'd let Woodhead and Edelman walk under your scenario.

 

[jbb9s]

Clearly the team needs to lock in a #1 CB for next year. If its Talib or another quality FA is a decision best made by Belichick. Talib has been good in 4 games but it is premature to give him 8mil a yr. I do think they did a great job to grab him at the deadline but in an entire offseason it is possible they find someone else they like better. the only thing i wouldn't want to see is the #32 pick or the #64 pick going to a rookie who would be required to start on Day 1.

 

[jbb9s]

Woodhead is playing 20-25% of snaps, and on some weeks 0 touches (trust me, he had been on my FF team).

I think Vereen has better future with this team. And Ridley is the 1 with Bolden showing he is capable for 15 carries on a game by game basis (ref his performance before the suspension).

Signing Danny for more than a hometown discount is not in the long term plan of BB.

 

[everlong]

Welker wants 9-10, Volmer's gonna want at least $8, Edelman 3-4....and there's your cap space....gone before you even get to Talib and whatever CB's get.

There is zero chance they're going to pay Edelman 3-4M. They only paid Lloyd 4M/year. Likewise with Vollmer you have Mankins making 8M/year. I don't see them going over that as much as they might like him. Hopefully they can work something out with both but I think 6M is the ceiling for Vollmer and 2M for Edelman.

 

[patfanken]

Seems pretty obvious you'd let Woodhead and Edelman walk under your scenario.

I love Woody, but I have trouble seeing him back with both Vareen AND Demps ready to take over his role. But as a well known Edelman supporter, the brief glimpse of what he showed this year both as a PR and a WR, I REALLY hope we can resign him. The problem is that guys that can fill that many roles are expensive (relatively) and he's broken 3 bones since he's been here (arm, hand, and foot) That's has to make you wonder how much you should invest in him.

Bottom line: Even if you are right and those guys are gone, they aren't going to save THAT much money. Talib, Welker, and Volmer could easily wipe out your cap room alone, even if they signed "hometown deals". No Jack, they are the Big Three, and I can't see us signing more than 2....at most. The interesting thing is that a good case can be made for not signing all of them. Welker's age and wear and tear. Volmer's chronic back problems. Talib's off field issues. Just as compelling cases can be MADE for all of them. Welker's off the charts production. Talib's impact on the secondary. Volmers all pro talent.

Like I said. Some hard decisions, which I'm sure will end up pissing a lot of people off, regardless of how they turn out.

 

[TyronePoole]

the Redskins secondary is terrible, and that scares me, but what is their cap situation?

I think this is one of those where I trust the team to do the right thing. It's not the Asante situation where BB could underestimate his importance, this is a guy he traded for after 4-5 years of secondary futility costing the team who has come in and thus far made a big difference. Franchise him or extend him I don't really care, I'm sure they'll make it work with the cap somehow.

 

[upstater1]

Don't overrate Demps.

There's a reason he wasn't drafted in the supplemental. This kid wasn't that good in college.

I take Woody over Demps again and again.

Demps though can figure in the return game.

 

[Big-T]

Welker wants 9-10, Volmer's gonna want at least $8, Edelman 3-4....and there's your cap space....gone before you even get to Talib and whatever CB's get.

I personally wouldn't give Welker more than 7...7.5 at a push, he has an inordinate amount of drops this season and getting older, BB probably isn't going to see value in paying Welker 9-10 per. If he doesn't want that, let some rubbish team overpay for him and see how he likes playing for the Browns or someone.

Vollmer, again as good as he is you can point to his back to knock a million or so off, I wouldn't be against paying him though - he's elite and still young.

Edelman will get 2-2.5 tops.

Restructure Brady and hope the above 3 accept deals like that, extend Talib and everyone is happy.

There's a reason he wasn't drafted in the supplemental. This kid wasn't that good in college.

Apart from an insane YPC and TD to carry ratio you mean?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

My God, doesn't anyone have some perspective? As Pats fans we want to pay and keep everyone. It just doesn't happen. A couple of points/questions.

1. What the franchise tag for a CB these days. If its not too high, it might be the way to go with him.

2. Jason has us estimated at being $16MM under the cap right now. I'm not sure how accurate that is. Lets say we have an additional $5MM more in carry over. That's just $21MM under the cap. That's not much even if all we had to do was sign our own FA's. Welker wants 9-10, Volmer's gonna want at least $8, Edelman 3-4....and there's your cap space....gone before you even get to Talib and whatever CB's get.

3. So what about Talib, Woodhead and all the others. What about the possibility of adding even middle class FA's. What about signing our draft picks? You can't sign everyone. Difficult choices are going to have to be made....and we aren't going to like them. Why? Because we are fans and fans never see the entire picture. We want what we want and we want it NOW!

A Brady extension (can't restructure because of what it would do to 2014 and a tag price going forward not to mention no leverage since his deal is now effectively fully guaranteed) will significantly lower Tom's cap. By several to ten million +.

That said, you are right and they can't just afford everyone (without sacrificing something else). Talib has been a solid acquisition. He's not a pro bowl shutdown corner from what we've seen. I don't know where he sees himself or where they see him, but there may be other candidates for what this team needed which was just solid play at corner and safety and stability via moving McCourty to safety. As Bedard has noted, they've been blitzing more due to matchups with play action QB's and blitzed more after Talib left the game than when he was in. Just feeling a certain comfort level in the secondary and with the improving play of a young front 7 moreso than Talib per say may be afoot.

As for tag prices, they won't go up much given the new formula but estimate OL at $9-10M, CB at $10-11M and WR for Welker because it would be 120% of his 2012 tag at $11.4M. You have to look at unit allocation and while CB and WR aren't costing much OL already has a LG making $8.5M. Although Arrington is a FA in 2013 and while he'd be cheaper as a slot corner he's still gonna cost them $3-4M if he's not overvalued elsewhere. Then you have to factor in durability. Then you have to project...

 

[chasa]

I dont think the franchise tag is a legitimate option, a few guys got monster contracts and that pushes the franchise number way up.

Talib i believe is on his second strike(law run ins, PED) so the next major issue and he could be looking at a 8game-full season suspension ala pacman jones.

The only way see him getting resigned is a very team friendly deal, with lots of clauses to get out of "guarenteed"money

 

[patfanken]

There is zero chance they're going to pay Edelman 3-4M. They only paid Lloyd 4M/year. Likewise with Vollmer you have Mankins making 8M/year. I don't see them going over that as much as they might like him. Hopefully they can work something out with both but I think 6M is the ceiling for Vollmer and 2M for Edelman.

Your probably right. The number is likely closer to 3. But consider this. You are paying Edelman not only for being a WR (a role which would likely expand if he comes back), but as one of the better PR's in the league, as well as an ace on several other special teams. You are paying Lloyd just to be a WR....period.

BTW- This injury might be a blessing in disguise to some degree (I really would love him playing right now) He was blossoming right before our eye, almost like the defense. As he became a more integral part of the offense, his value would have become more apparent. Maybe now, fewer teams will go after him. I know the Jets will (if they have any money to spare)

 

[The Gr8est]

My God, doesn't anyone have some perspective? As Pats fans we want to pay and keep everyone. It just doesn't happen. A couple of points/questions.

1. What the franchise tag for a CB these days. If its not too high, it might be the way to go with him.

2. Jason has us estimated at being $16MM under the cap right now. I'm not sure how accurate that is. Lets say we have an additional $5MM more in carry over. That's just $21MM under the cap. That's not much even if all we had to do was sign our own FA's. Welker wants 9-10, Volmer's gonna want at least $8, Edelman 3-4....and there's your cap space....gone before you even get to Talib and whatever CB's get.

3. So what about Talib, Woodhead and all the others. What about the possibility of adding even middle class FA's. What about signing our draft picks? You can't sign everyone. Difficult choices are going to have to be made....and we aren't going to like them. Why? Because we are fans and fans never see the entire picture. We want what we want and we want it NOW!

I think we need to consider how difficult it is to replace our FAs regardless of their relative talent level. As good as Vollmer is, he is a major injury risk and wouldn't seem a candidate for a long NFL career. We have Marcus Cannon who has played well in Vollmer's absence, and the best OL coach in the game. Vollmer IS replaceable. We also shouldn't forget that Donald Thomas is a FA too and it would be nice to retain him.

I love Danny Woodhead, and he may be keepable as I don't think he will want to break the bank, but he IS replaceable by guys currently on the roster and under contact. If he wants too much he will be gone.

Edelman is another I would really love to keep, and he may be more valuable than Woodhead with his PR abilities, rapidly improving WR skills, and overall versatility. Still, I think he could be let go if he wants too much.

Then we get to Wes Welker and Aqib Talib; two guys whose absence would cause a noticeable drop off, and for whom there are no apparent replacements on the roster. They are both guys the Pats need to make the necessary efforts to keep, and I am heartened to hear the reports that Welker and the Pats have already worked out an extension that they cannot announce yet.

Sadly, as patfanken said, we can't keep everybody.

 

[serifyn]

Lets not rush to judgement, its been 4 weeks and the honeymoon is barely over.

If the defense is as good as everyone says it is now and the offense continues to be the best in the league, there is little reason this team shouldent win the Superbowl this year, if they do that and Talib is a big part of it, i have no problem giving him a generous contract, but this team has SO MANY free agents and priorities, he may be one of them, but we need to know for sure before we start throwing money his way over guys like Welker, Vollmer, and even Spikes (who is a free agent after next year) and may possibly end up being the best linebacker on this team by then.

Edit: There is a reason why the Patriots used Edelman so much in the beginning of the season and you saw alot of it just before he got injured. He is a special player who the Patriots see as a longterm WR for them (perhaps starting over Lloyd), Woodhead is basically Kevin Faulk, and its obvious how much the Patriots like having that type of player for third down.

I envision Woodhead and Edelman being back next year, perhaps even before the aforementioned Vollmer and even possibly Welker (though i think that would be a mistake).

Gronk, Hernandez, Welker and Edelman (when all healthy) are as good and difficult to cover group as you'll find in the NFL, and something it think you may consider sacrificing Talib for in order to maintain.

Edit2: Keep in mind that Dennard is starting to emerge as well and with another decent cornerback there with him, he may mature enough next year to take over Corner 1 duties.