I feel like a broken record but: Head to head still matters in a 3 way tie.

[fnordcircle]

I've read like 20 people say it stops mattering in a 3 way tie but that makes no sense to me and unless I'm reading the rules wrong head to head absolutely matters. I've bolded the important sections.

NFL Tie-Breaking Procedures

OTHER TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURES

Only one club advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step. Remaining tied clubs revert to the first step of the applicable division or Wild Card tie-breakers. As an example, if two clubs remain tied in any tie-breaker step after all other clubs have been eliminated, the procedure reverts to Step 1 of the two-club format to determine the winner. When one club wins the tiebreaker, all other clubs revert to Step 1 of the applicable two-club or three-club format.
In comparing records against common opponents among tied teams, the best won-lost-tied percentage is the deciding factor, since teams may have played an unequal number of games.
To determine home-field priority among division-titlists, apply Wild Card tie-breakers.
To determine home-field priority for Wild Card qualifiers, apply division tie-breakers (if teams are from the same division) or Wild Card tiebreakers (if teams are from different divisions).
To determine the best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed, add a team's position in the two categories, and the lowest score wins. For example, if Team A is first in points scored and second in points allowed, its combined ranking is "3." If Team B is third in points scored and first in points allowed, its combined ranking is "4." Team A then wins the tiebreaker. If two teams are tied for a position, both teams are awarded the ranking as if they held it solely. For example, if Team A and Team B are tied for first in points scored, each team is assigned a ranking of "1" in that category, and if Team C is third, its ranking will still be "3."

TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM

If it is necessary to break ties to determine the two Wild-Card clubs from each conference, the following steps will be taken.

If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tie breaker.
If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps.
Two Clubs

Head-to-head, if applicable.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
Strength of victory.
Strength of schedule.
Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best net points in conference games.
Best net points in all games.
Best net touchdowns in all games.
Coin toss.

Three or More Clubs

(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.)

Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants.
Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)
Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
Strength of victory.
Strength of schedule.
Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best net points in conference games.
Best net points in all games.
Best net touchdowns in all games.
Coin toss

In short, I don't know quite why anyone would have us ahead of the Ravens yet. If the Ravens beat the Broncos they'll have beaten both the Patriots and Broncos meaning that they bested both of those teams so in a theoretical 3 way tie at 12-4 where the Broncos lose to the Ravens and the Patriots lose one more along with Baltimore dropping one more the Ravens would get the #2 seed.

Where Head to Head stops mattering is if there are 3 or more teams and no one team has beaten all of the other division winners they are tied with. Then it would moved to conference record and the Patriots have only 1 conference loss (Baltimore) so they are in good shape for that record as things stand.

Someone clue me in if I'm off base or reading this wrong but I still think it's pretty clear and it's what makes the most sense. Why should a team who is in a 3 way tie with two other teams it has beaten lose a tiebreaker to either of them? The whole point of seeding is that the 'better' teams get the higher seeding and the closest method we have to determining who is better is head to head competition, obviously.

 

[Yehoodi]

you are correct the head to head is still the top tiebreaker even amongst 3 or more teams, but only applies if that head to head is a sweep, so you need to play each team in the 3 way and have swept them all . . .

presently, there is no sweep as balt has not played Den, so we are now ahead with conf rec. as you indicated . . .

 

[Sciz]

The Ravens will have a chance to get the head to head tiebreaker over both the Pats and Broncos, in which case they would win any 3-way tie between the three.

Right now, they don't have the head to head tiebreaker over the Broncos, so it goes to conference record, which the Pats win.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Pretty much it comes down to this......If Baltimore Beats Denver they likely get the 2 seed unless they drop another one and Denver and NE don't.

If NE wins out and Denver or some other team beats Baltimore,NE gets the 2 seed

I think it's going to be tough for ANY of these teams to win out,but Denver has the easiest road and we know that Baltimore and Denver square off in week 15

I think the next 2 weeks,answers where the Pats end up.....A win over Houston and San Fran and I think it all but gives them the 2 seed unless they bomb in Jax or vs. Miami ...a win and a loss in the next two games and the 2 seed fight is likely over....both losses in those games and its probably the 4 seed

 

[PatriotSeven]

I really think this discussion could wait at least one more week and we should worry about getting past the Texans and then the 49ers.

Far too many variables to worry about at this point.

 

[fnordcircle]

I really think this discussion could wait at least one more week and we should worry about getting past the Texans and then the 49ers.

Far too many variables to worry about at this point.

Playing 'what if' as seasons wind down to playoff time is one of my favorite pastimes and evidently others enjoy it as well as there has been around 3-4 threads about this so why should people stop discussing it if they're enjoying the speculation?

 

[fnordcircle]

The Ravens will have a chance to get the head to head tiebreaker over both the Pats and Broncos, in which case they would win any 3-way tie between the three.

Right now, they don't have the head to head tiebreaker over the Broncos, so it goes to conference record, which the Pats win.

Hmm, you're right. Thanks for that clarification.

 

[shmessy]

In short, I don't know quite why anyone would have us ahead of the Ravens yet. If the Ravens beat the Broncos they'll have.........

Right there is the problem with your thread.

First sentence is present tense, second sentence is future tense based on a supposition.

At the moment, the Patriots are ahead of the Ravens. They might not be in the future.

Right now is not a subjective, it is objective.

What's so hard to understand?

 

[VJCPatriot]

You're right in a manner of speaking, although technically right at this very moment, the Patriots ARE the #2 seed of the season ends today. What we ultimately want is for Denver to beat the Ravens, and for a 3 way tie at #2 to end the season.

Or, if we don't want outside help, we want the Pats to just end up with the better overall record when the dust settles. Which is possible. The Ravens don't have any 'gimme' games to close out the season. The Redskins aren't a top tier team but they are still dangerous because of RG3.

Redskins 5-6
Denver 9-3
NYG 7-4
Cinci 7-5

I could see the Ravens closing out 2-2 and the Pats finishing 3-1. That would do it.

 

[shmessy]

You're right in a manner of speaking, although technically right at this very moment, the Patriots ARE the #2 seed of the season ends today. What we ultimately want is for Denver to beat the Ravens, and for a 3 way tie at #2 to end the season.

Or, if we don't want outside help, we want the Pats to just end up with the better overall record when the dust settles. Which is possible. The Ravens don't have any 'gimme' games to close out the season. The Redskins aren't a top tier team but they are still dangerous because of RG3.

Redskins 5-6
Denver 9-3
NYG 7-4
Cinci 7-5

I could see the Ravens closing out 2-2 and the Pats finishing 3-1. That would do it.

Not if Denver goes 4-0.

 

[serifyn]

The #1 and #2 seeds are still not out of reach. If the Texans lose to the Patriots, they will have the head to head tiebreaker over them as well, then if the Texans lose to the Vikings or the Colts (they play them twice) The Patriots could take over the #1 Seed.

The Colts are a playoff caliber football team and a division opponent of the Texans, so they will have 2 great opportunities to get a win against them.

All of this is for not if the Patriots don't win next Monday, The Broncos have an incredibly easy schedule (aside from baltimore) and with a Head to Head Tiebreaker against NE, another loss would be almost insurmountable.

The Pats will have a home game regardless of what happens, and if they lose on Monday, you could see them focusing on getting healthy rather than trying to win and taking it easy on guys who need the time to recover like Mankins, Connelly, Vollmer, Gronkowski and Jones.

 

[moosekill]

I've read like 20 people say it stops mattering in a 3 way tie but that makes no sense to me and unless I'm reading the rules wrong head to head absolutely matters. I've bolded the important sections.

NFL Tie-Breaking Procedures

I am sorry, but you keep making statements that are incorrect, then get annoyed when people call you out for being wrong. Head to head "MAY" matter in a three way tie. If one team has swept the other two teams it "DOES MATTER", however, if none of the teams have swept the other two teams it "DOES NOT MATTER"

Therefore, stating in your post that it "DOES MATTER" is incorrect, not sure how else it can be explained. If I could draw a flow chart on here I would so perhaps you might get it.

This is one of my pet peeves, every year, around this time, people come on the board and make statements about the playoff structure that are wrong, then argue on and on confusing everyone else. If you don't know for sure then just ask a question.

 

[Off The Grid]

I don't know quite why anyone would have us ahead of the Ravens yet.

I don't know quite why anyone would have us ahead of the Ravens yet.

Ummm....Because we are??

Funny thing is...

We are the #2 Seed, today, and could win out...and would still slip to #3 if the Ravens win out.

...which they shall not!! :snob:

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Applying tie breakers to say how it would play out in the middle of the season beforeva team has clnched has always struck me as silly unless the point is about clinching scenarios. If it is to say who is "ahead," it has never made sense to me.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

you are correct the head to head is still the top tiebreaker even amongst 3 or more teams, but only applies if that head to head is a sweep, so you need to play each team in the 3 way and have swept them all . . .

presently, there is no sweep as balt has not played Den, so we are now ahead with conf rec. as you indicated . . .

Excellent job. A+++. You boiled 500 words down to around 50. Thank you!

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I really think this discussion could wait at least one more week and we should worry about getting past the Texans and then the 49ers.

Far too many variables to worry about at this point.

I gave a "Like" to your post because I agree; but, I also think that it's a valid point of discussion to clarify the three-way tie breaker.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I've read like 20 people say it stops mattering in a 3 way tie but that makes no sense to me and unless I'm reading the rules wrong head to head absolutely matters. I've bolded the important sections.

NFL Tie-Breaking Procedures





In short, I don't know quite why anyone would have us ahead of the Ravens yet. If the Ravens beat the Broncos they'll have beaten both the Patriots and Broncos meaning that they bested both of those teams so in a theoretical 3 way tie at 12-4 where the Broncos lose to the Ravens and the Patriots lose one more along with Baltimore dropping one more the Ravens would get the #2 seed.

Where Head to Head stops mattering is if there are 3 or more teams and no one team has beaten all of the other division winners they are tied with. Then it would moved to conference record and the Patriots have only 1 conference loss (Baltimore) so they are in good shape for that record as things stand.

Someone clue me in if I'm off base or reading this wrong but I still think it's pretty clear and it's what makes the most sense. Why should a team who is in a 3 way tie with two other teams it has beaten lose a tiebreaker to either of them? The whole point of seeding is that the 'better' teams get the higher seeding and the closest method we have to determining who is better is head to head competition, obviously.

Thanks for putting the topic on the table. Please see Yehoodi's brief summary of the issue, which I found very helpful.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Applying tie breakers to say how it would play out in the middle of the season beforeva team has clnched has always struck me as silly unless the point is about clinching scenarios. If it is to say who is "ahead," it has never made sense to me.

I agree, but I think it's useful to be informed of the rules, as long as we understand that their application at this point is somewhere between premature and useless.

 

[Off The Grid]

Applying tie breakers to say how it would play out in the middle of the season beforeva team has clnched has always struck me as silly unless the point is about clinching scenarios. If it is to say who is "ahead," it has never made sense to me.

So...You see no value in planning for the future?

Interesting Philosophy.

 

[Off The Grid]

I always find it bizarre and extraordinarily obtuse when someone suggests that a Subject doesn't warrant discussion or that it should be deferred to a later time.

Hello??

This is a Message Board.

The entire purpose of a Message Board is to speculate and share opinions.

***

Also: it's pretty clear that a lot of people didn't know what the deal is.

Why not have these discussions, so's to enlighten our Fellow Patriot Fans??

***

There are so many guys around here who clearly think that they are Bill Belichick!!

"Let's not get ahead of ourselves, boys." :snob:

"Let's not speculate about the future until it happens, guys." :snob:

"That would be an appropriate subject two weeks from now." :snob:

Gimme a break.

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