Shonn Greene Fumble

[smg93]

Do you guys remember the 4th and 1 Fumble of Shonn Greene? Greene tried to stretch his arms forwards to get the first down which of course led to spikes(?) knocking the ball loose and Gregory picking up the fumble.

What I found interesting is that after the play, the TV cameras showed Greene trying to signal that the play was a first down. Did he think that the rules of stretching for a first down and doing the same on a goal line play were the same? It was as if he thought, well I stretched my arms out so I broke the plane so no fumble.

That was kinda weird.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Maybe he was asking or forward progress?

The play isn't dead once he gets the first down. It's only dead when it gets blown dead. That play by spikes was genius...absolute genius.

 

[Big-T]

Greene was stuffed, wasn't even close to a first down and when he held the ball out he still looked short!

Spikes just swiping the ball away was great though.

 

[patfanken]

I had a different question on the same play. The way I saw it, on a play where they had stopped Greene cold on 4th down. Greene fumbles the ball forward (Illegal I thought) and the end result is the Pats lose about 12 yds, plus they ran the small risk that the Jets could recover the ball. On that fumble the Jets had no downside, and had everything to gain. Fumbles aren't supposed to work that way. In the end, all I could think was, "what's up with that."

And whats even more surprising (at least to me) is not a single member of the media or board has commented on it.

 

[Uncle Rico]

I had a different question on the same play. The way I saw it, on a play where they had stopped Greene cold on 4th down. Greene fumbles the ball forward (Illegal I thought) and the end result is the Pats lose about 12 yds, plus they ran the small risk that the Jets could recover the ball. On that fumble the Jets had no downside, and had everything to gain. Fumbles aren't supposed to work that way. In the end, all I could think was, "what's up with that."

And whats even more surprising (at least to me) is not a single member of the media or board has commented on it.

Several people made the same point here during the game thread and I heard it on the radio a few times the next day. Problem with the argument is that Spikes actually poked the ball out — didn't look like an intentional fumble to me. And I don't think you can blame Spikes for making that play in the heat of the game. (Plus it just made Veren's TD run a little longer.) I think Greene actually believed he could get a first down there by "breaking the plane." More great coaching.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I had another question, if the Jets would have recovered that fumble down the field, would they be awarded the ball at the site of recovery with a 1st down or does it come back to where Greene fumbled it from and they are short of the 1st down, making it our ball?

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Do you guys remember the 4th and 1 Fumble of Shonn Greene? Greene tried to stretch his arms forwards to get the first down which of course led to spikes(?) knocking the ball loose and Gregory picking up the fumble.

What I found interesting is that after the play, the TV cameras showed Greene trying to signal that the play was a first down. Did he think that the rules of stretching for a first down and doing the same on a goal line play were the same? It was as if he thought, well I stretched my arms out so I broke the plane so no fumble.

That was kinda weird.

if it wasn't a fumble, we wouldve had better field position anyway

 

[Rob0729]

Maybe he was asking or forward progress?

The play isn't dead once he gets the first down. It's only dead when it gets blown dead. That play by spikes was genius...absolute genius.

Yeah, my take was he was trying to say that he got the first down and then fumbled the ball after forward progress was completed and the play was dead. The problem is that I don't think he ever got the first down even after stretching out the ball and he fumbled immediately after stretching out and the play wasn't dead.

Players try to influence refs all the time even when the call is clearly the other way. Sometimes the refs buy it and are influenced. I think Greene was just trying to save his arse by claiming he got the first down and didn't fumble until after forward progress was completed, but probably knew that he fumbled before the whistle.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

This comment from another teams message board explains the holy roller rule.

The only way a team would get the yards back is if it was ruled that his forward progress was stopped before the fumble, and in fact there was no fumble. Otherwise, if it is a fumble, the ball goes to whomever falls on it, wherever it lies.

The only exception, and this is where it can get confusing, is when the offense fumbles on fourth down, or inside two minutes. In those cases the only offensive player who can advance the ball is the player who fumbled it. If another offensive player recovers it/advances it beyond the spot of the fumble, it goes back to the spot of the fumble. (If it is recovered behind the spot of the fumble, it does not move back to the spot of forward progress).

And if it is recovered by a defensive player it goes to the defense wherever it is recovered (and of course they are free to advance it until the whistle blows. So the forward fumble in and of itself isn't illegal per se, there are just rules that stipulate how a recovery is treated in certain circumstances relative to who recovers it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I had another question, if the Jets would have recovered that fumble down the field, would they be awarded the ball at the site of recovery with a 1st down or does it come back to where Greene fumbled it from and they are short of the 1st down, making it our ball?

It comes back to the spot of the fumble on a 4th down or within 2 minutes of a half ending unless the player who fumbled it recovers it. He is the only player on offense allowed to advance a ball under those circumstances.

 

[signbabybrady]

I had a different question on the same play. The way I saw it, on a play where they had stopped Greene cold on 4th down. Greene fumbles the ball forward (Illegal I thought) and the end result is the Pats lose about 12 yds, plus they ran the small risk that the Jets could recover the ball. On that fumble the Jets had no downside, and had everything to gain. Fumbles aren't supposed to work that way. In the end, all I could think was, "what's up with that."

And whats even more surprising (at least to me) is not a single member of the media or board has commented on it.

The rules for advancing a forward fumble are funny they differ from 4th down and other plays and also inside of the two minute warning. But in all aspects it is in play for, and this being 4th down it was in play, it reads the offense can't advance a forward fumble so had the offense recovered it would have gone back to the spot it was fumbled.

Some people think it was stuffed and we lost 12 yards but who knows how far Greene could of stretched it had Spikes not been there. Awesome play by an awesome heady player.

 

[Hardboiled]

As JC Davey can confirm - Origin of the rule: Holy Roller Wikipedia

The famous Holy Roller game Raiders at Chargers 1978 season - YouTube

Laslavic became a familiar face as a SD sportscaster as did Hank Bauer (bald guy in uniform 37 on sideline).

 

[patfanken]

The rules for advancing a forward fumble are funny they differ from 4th down and other plays and also inside of the two minute warning. But in all aspects it is in play for, and this being 4th down it was in play, it reads the offense can't advance a forward fumble so had the offense recovered it would have gone back to the spot it was fumbled.

Some people think it was stuffed and we lost 12 yards but who knows how far Greene could of stretched it had Spikes not been there. Awesome play by an awesome heady player.

OK, so let me get this straight. Had the Jets recovered the fumble on the 17, the officials would have brought the ball back to the spot of the fumble, which we all know was short of the first down marker. That makes sense, btw.

Thanks to you an Mo for the explanation. Interesting thought though. Assuming Gregory knows the rule, AND assuming he realizes the Greene didn't make it. Can you imagine the confusion of watching the Pats allow a Jet player to recover a fumble....and then watch the ball go back to the spot of the fumble.....Pats ball.

Of course I understand that in the heat of the game you'd never take that chance and Gregory did the right thing, but its fun to think about all those Jets fans whose heads would have exploded if they'd seen that turn of events

 

[ALP]

i have never heard of this hybrid fumble rule in my life before this....

i suppose it makes sense, but that's weird as hell

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

OK, so let me get this straight. Had the Jets recovered the fumble on the 17, the officials would have brought the ball back to the spot of the fumble, which we all know was short of the first down marker. That makes sense, btw.

Thanks to you an Mo for the explanation. Interesting thought though. Assuming Gregory knows the rule, AND assuming he realizes the Greene didn't make it. Can you imagine the confusion of watching the Pats allow a Jet player to recover a fumble....and then watch the ball go back to the spot of the fumble.....Pats ball.

Of course I understand that in the heat of the game you'd never take that chance and Gregory did the right thing, but its fun to think about all those Jets fans whose heads would have exploded if they'd seen that turn of events

THe evil Kraft/Belichick/Patriots conspiracy types would have blamed the loss of the entire game and missing a playoff berth on the refs in that one play. Woulda been classic!

Great thread, OP, smg93. And great informative responses.

 

[BananaRepublican]

I think Greene actually believed he could get a first down there by "breaking the plane." More great coaching.

To be honest that looked a poorly coached, poorly prepared team, dearth of talent aside. Something is wrong at a fundamental level with that team. The Browns look like they are going in the right direction in comparison, and that would scare any sane Jets fan.

 

[Mike the Brit]

to be honest that looked a poorly coached, poorly prepared team, dearth of talent aside. Something is wrong at a fundamental level with that team. The browns look like they are going in the right direction in comparison, and that would scare any sane jets fan, could one be found.

..............

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I had a different question on the same play. The way I saw it, on a play where they had stopped Greene cold on 4th down. Greene fumbles the ball forward (Illegal I thought) and the end result is the Pats lose about 12 yds, plus they ran the small risk that the Jets could recover the ball.

Forward fumbles aren't illegal. A forward fumble isn't the same as a forward pass (which is illegal past the LOS), unless the refs consider it an intentional forward fumble, in which case it is considered a forward pass.

However, on 4th down (and in the last two minutes of the half) a fumble (forward or backward) can only be advanced on offense by the player who fumbled it. In other words, if a Jet other than Greene had recovered that fumble the play would be immediately dead, it would be Jets' ball, but it would be marked back to the point of the fumble (or to the spot of the recovery if the recovery spot is behind the fumble spot) . This is the rule change that was made after the Holy Roller play all those years ago.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

However, on 4th down (and in the last two minutes of the half) a fumble (forward or backward) can only be advanced on offense by the player who fumbled it. In other words, if a Jet other than Greene had recovered that fumble the play would be immediately dead, it would be Jets' ball, but it would be marked back to the point of the fumble (or to the spot of the recovery if the recovery spot is behind the fumble spot) . This is the rule change that was made after the Holy Roller play all those years ago.

It comes back to the spot of the fumble on a 4th down or within 2 minutes of a half ending unless the player who fumbled it recovers it. He is the only player on offense allowed to advance a ball under those circumstances.

Thanks for the clarifications. So even if the Jets would have recovered that ball it'd have been ours since the spot of the fumble was behind the first down marker?

 

[Joker]

the last forward fumble I made was at a company Christmas party...and she poured a bowl of egg nog over my head....