LaRon Landry helmet to helmet hit on Julian Edelman

[RayClay]

It has been proposed here that it's OK to hit a runner with your helmet, as Landry did to Edelman, because he was running and therefore not defenseless.

I was surprised no one challenged that as I thought Landry was guilty of what we used to call spearing. I'm not a rule expert, but i believe I'm right and he should have been penalized.

Rule 12, Section 2, Article 8 (Unnecessary roughness) in the NFL rulebook

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/29969/nfl-rulebook-unnecessary-roughness

(f) If a player uses any part of his helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/”hairline” parts) or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily. Although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent, game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those players who are in virtually defenseless postures, including but not limited to:

They give special attention to marginal, or incidental shots to those in defenseless postures, but leading with the crown of your helmet has always been a penalty. Right or wrong?

[I haven't rewatched it, BTW, my memory of the contact could be wrong]

 

[RayClay]

Hmmm...

Landry was not flagged on the play, as NBC's Al Michaels explained helmet-to-helmet is not enforceable on a running play. That said, Landry could be fined for the hit by the league.

Julian Edelman injury update: Receiver enters locker room after helmet-to-helmet hit - SBNation.com

I don't think so.

No arms, no shoulder, that's a penalty and a fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxgz5aSSojc

 

[Deus Irae]

He went with his shoulder and Edelman dropped his head.

 

[RayClay]

He went with his shoulder and Edelman dropped his head.

Unless Landry has a shoulder growing over his head, that guess as to his motives doesn't really cut it. Also, the rule does not state that it's OK to make contact only with the helmet if we think you meant to do something else.

Your interpretation assumes that all penalties are intentional, which they surely are not. Instead of a tackle, Landry went to make a "hit" and that hit was delivered with his helmet which is a penalty regardless of his intention. And, per the posters and Al Michaels, it's not OK to do to a running back.

 

[patfanken]

He went with his shoulder and Edelman dropped his head.

That's right. It was Edelman who lower his head and initiated the contact.

No one did anything wrong.

OTOH, I don't can't see what else Dennard could have done to avoid hitting the Receiver in the head when he got his Personal Foul call. The guy was about 2 feet above the ground. There wasn't anywhere else to hit him. His only alternative would have been not to hit him at all

 

[Deus Irae]

Unless Landry has a shoulder growing over his head, that guess as to his motives doesn't really cut it...

There's no guess needed about any motive. It's on the tape. There's a clear look of Edelman ducking into it at the 9-10 second mark, and the 12-13 second mark is even more clear.

 

[RayClay]

That's right. It was Edelman who lower his head and initiated the contact.

No one did anything wrong.

OTOH, I don't can't see what else Dennard could have done to avoid hitting the Receiver in the head when he got his Personal Foul call. The guy was about 2 feet above the ground. There wasn't anywhere else to hit him. His only alternative would have been not to hit him at all

Nevertheless, there is nothing in the rule regarding an offensive players positioning of his head. Landry could have tried to tackle him, he didn't. It was not incidental contact, it was the only contact.

If a player uses any part of his helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/”hairline” parts) or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily. Although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent, game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those players who are in virtually defenseless postures, including but not limited to:

The bolded section is before the "defenseless" portion.

Note: If in doubt about a roughness call or potentially dangerous tactics, the covering official(s) should always call unnecessary roughness.

Certainly dangerous, it likely caused a concussion.

If there's a rule that says it's OK to make a hit with your helmet if the other guy dropped his, or you meant to do something else, I'm up to reading that.

In the meantime, aren't defensive players called for less and isn't the league trying to curtail the use of the helmet through techniques dsigned to hit rather than tackle, which causes injuries?

 

[RayClay]

There's no guess needed about any motive. It's on the tape. There's a clear look of Edelman ducking into it at the 9-10 second mark, and the 12-13 second mark is even more clear.

What rule prohibits that?

 

[UK_Pat37]

Nothing wrong with the hit at all. Whoever wote hat SB Nation piece has no idea.

He's not defenceless, he's a ball carrier, and the hit is perfectly legal. Nature of the sport.

Never left his feet either...so it was hardly a spear.

 

[RayClay]

Nothing wrong with the hit at all. Whoever wote hat SB Nation piece has no idea.

He's not defenceless, he's a ball carrier, and the hit is perfectly legal. Nature of the sport.

Never left his feet either...so it was hardly a spear.

It has nothing to do with being defenseless, it's the part of the rule before that. The SB article quoted Al Michaels, who said what you said.

I didn't say it was "wrong" I said it was a penalty under NFL rules and I quoted the rule.

 

[Deus Irae]

What rule prohibits that?

No rule prohibits it. I'm not the one here trying to 'discover' a penalty while admitting that I haven't even rewatched the play. That's you:

...[I haven't rewatched it, BTW, my memory of the contact could be wrong]

 

[UK_Pat37]

It has nothing to do with being defenseless, it's the part of the rule before that. The SB article quoted Al Michaels, who said what you said.

I didn't say it was "wrong" I said it was a penalty under NFL rules and I quoted the rule.

I don't know a rule that says leading with your crown has always been a penalty. It's stupid, because you're just as likely to hurt yourself as you are your opponent, but he isn't defenceless so I don't really see an issue with it.

Not only that but he wasn't gunning for his head. Edelman lowered his head in to the hit, which is just as stupid.

 

[RayClay]

No rule prohibits it. I'm not the one here trying to 'discover' a penalty while admitting that I haven't even rewatched the play. That's you:

Since I linked the youtube, you can assume I watched it.

 

[Deus Irae]

Since I linked the youtube, you can assume I watched it.

Since I quoted your words which said you hadn't, I can assume you hadn't, unless you're calling yourself a liar.

 

[RayClay]

I don't know a rule that says leading with your crown has always been a penalty.

Try this one. The part before any additional sanctions for "defenseless" players.

Rule 12, Section 2, Article 8 (Unnecessary roughness) in the NFL rulebook

(f) If a player uses any part of his helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/”hairline” parts) or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily.

NFL rulebook: Unnecessary roughness - NFL Nation Blog - ESPN

I believe causing a concussion would be evidence of "violently". Don't know what else we would be talking about, they are trying to prevent injuries.

 

[RayClay]

Since I quoted your words which said you hadn't, I can assume you hadn't, unless you're calling yourself a liar.

Actually, I exist in the time/space continuum, where earlier posts are often superseded by later ones.

 

[robbomango]

it was good hard hitting football, let's not ruin it.

 

[DocHoliday]

One has to wonder if we are now overcompensating. If years of the league having virtually no rules on concussions led to a small portion of the NFL population having brain damage you have to think that after a decade of minimizing contact and protecting players that in 20 years when all these guys are retired we will already have significantly minimized these problems.

Further reduction may not be necessary

 

[RayClay]

I don't know a rule that says leading with your crown has always been a penalty. It's stupid, because you're just as likely to hurt yourself as you are your opponent, but he isn't defenceless so I don't really see an issue with it.

Not only that but he wasn't gunning for his head. Edelman lowered his head in to the hit, which is just as stupid.

So, running backs should standing run straight up in traffic?

 

[Deus Irae]

Actually, I exist in the time/space continuum, where earlier posts are often superseded by later ones.

The later posting of the video does not change the fact that you were trying to 'discover' the penalty without first re-watching the play. You'll note that such is what I posted:

I'm not the one here trying to 'discover' a penalty while admitting that I haven't even rewatched the play. That's you.

I'm not really sure why you're trying to turn that around on to me, but whatever floats your boat, I guess. The fact is that Landry turned his shoulder into the play and Edelman ducked into the hit. You don't seem to understand the rule.