I can't stand Bob Ryan and Shaughnessy

[Armchair Quarterback]

Sorry, I'm not going to boo the guy who made that kick in the snow against Oakland and the 48 yarder for the SB win.

He left seven years ago, get over it. Red Sox fan mentality.

I'm not going to click on the article either

 

[jnug]

The Pats have played hardball with Welker also and I think that one is going to hurt when it is all said and done. The Pats do try to keep as many quality pieces in place without paying them what they can get elsewhere and in truth they have been able to work with TB cause he is happy here and well paid.

There is much that the Pats do in their offense because when it gets to 3rd and long, they have Welker. Welker is not the scoring machine that Gronk and Hernandez can be. He is not the wide out that Lloyd is and he not a dashing and daring runner after the catch like Edelman. However, when it is 3rd and long, nobody is better at getting open right at the sticks as Welker is. He will gain enough separation for TB to stick it in there. He may go straight to ground to make sure he can wrap the ball up but he will be open enough for the QB, will catch it and keep the drive going. Yea I know there is that catch that he did not make in the SB but I would still put that on both TB and Welker. Edelman is feast or famine....flashier than Welker by far but not somebody you can rely on like Welker. Need to put together enough of a drive to get Gronk or Hernandez in position to work their magic.

So I know that the Pats get away with playing hardball with guys they think are replaceable. I think not reciprocating in some form when Welker made such an obvious move to signal his desire to be here and his willingness to do a hometown deal really left both sides in an odd place. Welker may have no option at this point. Being franchised on the surface does not appear to be a bad deal for the player but it does sort of leave the player wondering about his future after the franchise year and I think Welker thought the Pats saw enough value in him to make him feel like he was part of their future plans. I guess not but I would start to worry about what they are going to do 3rd and long without Welker cause they don't have anybody else that does what he does and Kevin Faulk is not walkin' through that door. That defense may end up starting to spend a lot more time on the field without Welker keeping drives going as well.

 

[Steve102]

Sorry, I'm not going to boo the guy who made that kick in the snow against Oakland and the 48 yarder for the SB win.

He left seven years ago, get over it. Red Sox fan mentality.

I'm not going to click on the article either

Indeed. People drew comparison to Johnny Damon signing with the Yankees when AV left. Leaving for a decent payday, extending your career in the process, and possibly making it to the HOF in no way compares to a reasonably decent outfielder going to the Red Sox' mortal enemy. IF Adam were to make it into the HOF, the residual $$ would be much larger than if he were "Adam Vinatieri, 3 time SB champion". It was a no-brainer. I'll never boo the guy. He did what he had to do, as did the franchise. I would say it's worked for both parties.

 

[Tunescribe]

Interesting factoid re., Adam: He no longer kicks off, yet they had him try a near-60-yarder at the end of the half Sunday. I don't know how long he's been on FG/PAT duty exclusively, but it's a pretty sure bet the Patriots wouldn't keep a kicker like that.

If I recall correctly, didn't New England make him a reasonable offer to stay, only to be outbid by Indy? Seems to me that Polian inflated his worth to tweak the Pats.

 

[Kontradiction]

Interesting factoid re., Adam: He no longer kicks off, yet they had him try a near-60-yarder at the end of the half Sunday. I don't know how long he's been on FG/PAT duty exclusively, but it's a pretty sure bet the Patriots wouldn't keep a kicker like that.

I can't recall an exact number of years, but Vinatieri has been doing that for a while now.

 

[jnug]

If ya' got three SB rings in hand, it might be tough to justify paying for the ultimate field goal kicking assassin at that point. The Colts were if nothing else looking for a way to get on the other side of that equation. I can't really blame either side, the Pats or AV. It just worked out that way.

I do think the Pats could have and should have found a different path to Welker though. Considering what Welker ultimately did, he must have been signaling a willingness to work with the Pats all along. The Pats sorta' kicked him in the rear end for his efforts and I think just left it in an impossible place from which to go forward. I could be wrong but I bet Welker can do what he does best for another three years without any real drop off. What he does best is not as hard to find as a TB but it is really hard to find. Welker compliments the other Pats offensive pieces so well also.

 

[Raymond]

Pay no attention to the senile man ( Ryan) behind the curtain.

Did he not recently complain about the NFL scheduling conspiracy with the Pats/ Colts without even knowing scheduling is done years in advance.

 

[PatsDeb]

Interesting factoid re., Adam: He no longer kicks off, yet they had him try a near-60-yarder at the end of the half Sunday. I don't know how long he's been on FG/PAT duty exclusively, but it's a pretty sure bet the Patriots wouldn't keep a kicker like that.

If I recall correctly, didn't New England make him a reasonable offer to stay, only to be outbid by Indy? Seems to me that Polian inflated his worth to tweak the Pats.

I believe that they made him a reasonable offer to stay, and even wanted to try to match any offer he got, and he didn't give them a chance and jumped ship. That's fine, his prerogative, and people have laid out the reasons here why he made the right move. I'm pretty sure it was a tweak at the Pats and Indy got the added bonus of replacing their "liquored up" kicker with one who didn't choke and shank it in crunch time. Remember, AV has one more SB ring than TB.

I don't hate AV. I appreciate what he did here, and if I ran into him in the street I would shake his hand and thank him for what he did here. But when he lined up to kick that long FG on Sunday, towards the EZ where I was sitting for this game, did I boo lustily and long? Hell, yes! It's called situational football, folks. Remember our friend Bill plays it all the time? I am a Pats homer. I am not a knuckledragger or a Red Sox whiner, thank you very much.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

No arguments with your post.

1) Vinatieri made the right move - kicking in a Dome and getting bigger bucks was the smart way for him to go for himself. He also picked up a ring.

2) The Patriots FO made the right move also - they got a better kicker for the years 2006+ at a lot less money.

Better remains to be seen (beyond the kickoffs which have been mitigated somewhat by the rules change) and he's costing us top dollar, $3M+, and has been since 2010. The Colts use their punter on kickoffs but it's a wash as he earns about what Zoltan does and he's pretty darned good as a multitasker.

Gostkowski was inexpensive as a 4th round draft pick out of the gate, although Adam as an UDFA was even moreso early in his career. The extension Gostkowski signed thereafter was for 5 years and $15.79m with $5M guaranteed. The deal Adam signed in 2006 was for 5 years and $12M with $3.5M guaranteed. He was extended in 2011 on a 3 year $10M deal with $3.5M guaranteed although he's all salary from here on out and took a $500K pay cut this season as a 40 year old kicker on a rebuilding team. They both missed half a season due to injury after signing their big long term deals.

Some trust issues seem to poke their head out from time to time to date, hopefully those will never truly bite us in the ass. Never did with Adam on Belichick's watch. I fault neither the player nor the team for what transpired. Each did what they believed was in their best interest and seemed to have trived in the aftermath. I do believe this is one of those times however when they regretted what transpired albeit too late to do anything about it beyond move on.

When Gostowski is a UFA again in 2015 at age 32 we shall see how his career plays out and whether he decides to be just another traitor. If so it'd be nice if he leaves us with a legacy of vaulting us into a superbowl contention and 3 rings let alone all won by the margin of a FG and two in the closing seconds.

Whereas a healthy smattering of boos whenever Samuel takes the field would not seem out of line to me. I know he tortured Peyton a time or two, but at one time just being in this area code did. Another Manning, not so much... Asante was more the player along for the ride who wanted a lot more than he was worth. Which is why they never lamented not even trying to extend him past his franchise season, which in itself was a mistake since they'd have far been better off in the long and short haul flipping him.

 

[FirstAndGoal]

For me, it has nothing to do with money. Here's what I remember.


When Adam came back the first time, he was booed on his first kick and he missed it. Whether it's true that it got to him or not, I've been booing away since then, not because I hate him. I'm booing because it might bother him and he might miss.... kind of a superstition at this point.

If he moves to the Browns, I'll boo him...why?, because he might miss again.


Now, Adam will be in at least the Pats HOF someday and I'll vote for him. That doesn't mean I want to play nice and encourage him to make a field goal against the Pats.


P.S. Adam gets booed like he does because it's that one play where it's success or failure. Positional players make and miss plays all game long. For Adam, it's a point of focus and opportunity to **** with his head.

 

[Nunchucks]

I love Adam, but come on guys. I totally would boo the crap out of him during a game. Seriously, he is putting points on the board for the other team, of course you can boo him.

 

[dales804]

I booed him on Sunday and I have all the respect in the world for what he accomplished here. It's simply that he's on the other team now trying to put points on the board. Would any other opposing kicker get booed like that? No, but when a player leaves and goes to your main rival at the time, it will promote the boos.

Again, as long as Adam is playing against the Pats he will probably get booed. When he hangs them up and returns, I think he will get a standing O. And he seems to know it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I believe that they made him a reasonable offer to stay, and even wanted to try to match any offer he got, and he didn't give them a chance and jumped ship. That's fine, his prerogative, and people have laid out the reasons here why he made the right move. I'm pretty sure it was a tweak at the Pats and Indy got the added bonus of replacing their "liquored up" kicker with one who didn't choke and shank it in crunch time. Remember, AV has one more SB ring than TB.

I don't hate AV. I appreciate what he did here, and if I ran into him in the street I would shake his hand and thank him for what he did here. But when he lined up to kick that long FG on Sunday, towards the EZ where I was sitting for this game, did I boo lustily and long? Hell, yes! It's called situational football, folks. Remember our friend Bill plays it all the time? I am a Pats homer. I am not a knuckledragger or a Red Sox whiner, thank you very much.

You believe incorrectly. They only ever offered him essentially a series of one year deals with ZERO guaranteed or signing bonus money.

They reportedly were chagrinned when ten days in he garnered serious interest in Indy after the GB visit didn't result in any offer. Because they believed everyone knew they were playing hardball with him and believed he if not they would cave eventually. Parcell's wanted him bad but held off persuit as a result of the whispers and expressed regret at being played after the fact.

Turns out legacy aside, and believe me it mattered to him - he's got considerable ego, they had tried to squeeze the wrong guy one too many times. Then they quickly became upset when he didn't offer them a shot to match, although he had to reach an understanding with Polian before they even met that he would not use their offer as leverage or it was off the table (and probably denied), it was take it or leave it we're going out on a limb extending you an offer your own team hasn't come close to...

He's been to the same number of SB's since and actually won one which he again kicked his team into...so his legacy survived. Only guy to leave here and prove he wasn't a product of the system...damn him.

 

[Deus Irae]

You believe incorrectly. They only ever offered him essentially a series of one year deals with ZERO guaranteed or signing bonus money.

They reportedly were chagrinned when ten days in he garnered serious interest in Indy after the GB visit didn't result in any offer. Because they believed everyone knew they were playing hardball with him and believed he if not they would cave eventually. Parcell's wanted him bad but held off persuit as a result of the whispers and expressed regret at being played after the fact.

Turns out legacy aside, and believe me it mattered to him - he's got considerable ego, they had tried to squeeze the wrong guy one too many times. Then they quickly became upset when he didn't offer them a shot to match, although he had to reach an understanding with Polian before they even met that he would not use their offer as leverage or it was off the table (and probably denied), it was take it or leave it we're going out on a limb extending you an offer your own team hasn't come close to...

He's been to the same number of SB's since and actually won one which he again kicked his team into...so his legacy survived. Only guy to leave here and prove he wasn't a product of the system...damn him.

Several Patriots have moved on and proven that they weren't a product of the system. Outside of that last line, though, I think you've got the gist of it down pretty well.

 

[Bhelmet]

How is ANY kicker a product of the system?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Interesting factoid re., Adam: He no longer kicks off, yet they had him try a near-60-yarder at the end of the half Sunday. I don't know how long he's been on FG/PAT duty exclusively, but it's a pretty sure bet the Patriots wouldn't keep a kicker like that.

If I recall correctly, didn't New England make him a reasonable offer to stay, only to be outbid by Indy? Seems to me that Polian inflated his worth to tweak the Pats.

Another incorrect recaller. They offered to make keep him the highest paid kicker in the league absent a contract that stipulated for how long or guaranteed a dollar. Had he taken them up on their generous offer and slipped on the soap prior to week 1 of season 1 they'd have owed him bupkiss... The Colts offered him $3.5M in signing bonus which is fully guaranteed and the cap driven implied guarantee he'd see $7.5M in the first 3 years of a 5 year deal. Which he did even though he missed half a season to have a nagging hip injury repaired. That's the same year they drafted a punter who is as adept at kickoffs as punts. (The NEP showed similar loyalty to Gostowski when he missed half a season right after he signed his deal, beinging in a series of replacements in the interim, although that loyalty was age and cap consequence driven, they ha no real choice whereas Indy did).

Fans believe loyalty is a significant component in their own lives, just doesn't apply to the players they adore until they don't play for them anymore because the team didn't choose to persue them as if they mattered.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

How is ANY kicker a product of the system?

Same way any other player is when winning or even an opportunity to is largely attributed to the system.

 

[patsox23]

Setting aside any opinions on Ryan or Curly haired Girlfriend, I hate that fans booed AV on Sunday. It's stupid and embarrassing. They're pink hat-level ****** fans.

 

[Bhelmet]

Sorry, kicking is a skill that has nothing to do with anyone else except, perhaps, the holder. They are pretty much awesome or suck on their own - no other player/coach can help.

 

[Bhelmet]

The "clutch" label may be a product of the system - getting him in position to be so, but he still has to kick and NO system makes/misses FG's. Still a reach IMO calling a kicker a product of the system.