The defense is not that bad

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

We run a fast pace no huddle offense which = lest rest time for are defense.
We score a ton of points which = opponents need to throw the ball more.
We force teams to play from behind which = opponents take more chances and attempt more big plays.

Despite all of that are defense still goes out and stops the run and forces turnovers.

We have Jones, Hightower, Dennard and Wilson as rookies playing key roles.

Lets stop acting like the sky is falling. The NFL is competitive top to bottom and I don't know any team that completely shuts down passing games in this day and age.

I've agreed with your first point in prior seasons, but this season I don't think it's correct (overall). The revamped running game has allowed the offense to operate more efficiently when not scoring cutting down on TOs and 3 and outs, so despite the quick pace of the offense they're rarely hurting the defense.

There's some basis to the rest of this though, but only in so much that it ensures teams attack the Pats' weaknesses aggressively. If the Pats were good in coverage these gambles by the other team would be just that. There's a reason teams opt not to play so aggressively most of the time. I think it's very fair to say that teams would let off a bit if the offense wasn't pushing them, which would result in a slight decrease in the lofty passing stats, but this would most likely cause the TOs to drop as well.

All in all I think the defense is about as bad as they appear I'd say low teens, but that isn't the end of the world. There's also plenty of reason to be optimistic since there are better pieces in play this season and an upgrade to one of the major weaknesses on the way.

 

[ralmat55]

Zone with no pressure is a completion, man with no pressure is a big play.

This is very true, but it is the risk you have to take. I'll throw a bone to those who say the problem is personnel - they are partially correct. The Patriots do not have the rushers to consistently pressure the QB with a straight 4 man rush nor do they have the talent or experience in the secondary needed to maintain coverage without an effective pass rush. But, they do have enough talent to have a better defense if they start taking away the easy passes and increase the degree of difficulty on the opponents offense.

So, you have to take a little more risk knowing you have an offense that can answer any big play if it has the time to do so. Plus, it's not like they haven't been allowing more than their fair share of big plays playing cover-2.

 

[Deus Irae]

We run a fast pace no huddle offense which = lest rest time for are defense.
We score a ton of points which = opponents need to throw the ball more.
We force teams to play from behind which = opponents take more chances and attempt more big plays.

Despite all of that are defense still goes out and stops the run and forces turnovers.

We have Jones, Hightower, Dennard and Wilson as rookies playing key roles.

Lets stop acting like the sky is falling. The NFL is competitive top to bottom and I don't know any team that completely shuts down passing games in this day and age.

The defense had one "clean" stop against Buffalo (drive stopped and punt forced, not because of penalties on offense, scores by offense, or turnovers). This is probably not the week to be telling people that the defense isn't that bad, because it certainly was "that bad" on Sunday.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Pats Hall Of Famers,Ty Law and Troy Brown publicly came out this week and called the defense pathetic and pitiful and we now have blind fans in here who think they are right that the defense is not that bad ....wake up dude,our defense flat out sucks and those 2 guys are right.

If Brady has a bad game this team is done for that particular game,this defense is not capable of winning a game on their own by taking over when their franchise player is struggling.

1 BAD Game from Brady = into 1 loss

 

[sevengables_2207]

The pass defense yardage is bad, yes, but the run defense has been pretty solid and the defense leads the league in turnover differential (+16). They have even recovered more fumbles forced than Da Bears hyped unit.

Are there things that irk me about the defense? Sure, nothing is perfect. However, there are many teams struggling to defend the pass in the league, which happens to be pass-happy/quarterback-friendly thanks to certain points of emphasis manifest by the CC several years ago. That does not make it okay to struggle defending the pass, but I tend to view this as a growing pains type of scenario on defense. It takes time. It took time in the mid-to-late 1990s with players who became really good on defense.

I feel that this defense is pretty similar to last year's unit statistically, albiet with better talent in the front seven. With the addition of Talib, hopefully they can steadily improve and play their best heading into the post-season.

 

[RodThePat]

Pats Hall Of Famers,Ty Law and Troy Brown publicly came out this week and called the defense pathetic and pitiful and we now have blind fans in here who think they are right that the defense is not that bad ....wake up dude,our defense flat out sucks and those 2 guys are right.

If Brady has a bad game this team is done for that particular game,this defense is not capable of winning a game on their own by taking over when their franchise player is struggling.

1 BAD Game from Brady = into 1 loss

Brady had a good game Sunday and it almost amounted to a loss. In 2003/2004, if Brady played poorly, we were hard pressed to win. Now, unless he plays completely lights out, we could still lose, even when he is by no means bad.

 

[mayoclinic]

I keep hearing this cry for aggressive man to man defense. I keep wondering how you solve the problem that we can't cover long enough for the pass rush to get there, by exposing those same defenders to man coverage across the entire field, when they are struggling in zone.
Zone with no pressure is a completion, man with no pressure is a big play.

IF you can play solid press-man with your corners and either bump receivers off their routes and/or cover your man effectively, it should buy a bit more time for the pass rush. A good deep safety should help reduce the collateral damage in case of misses. But you're entirely correct, trying to play press man with personnel who can't press and can't cover their man long enough to be effective, or without adequate help over the top, is probably not a good idea. Which is why I never advocated doing it was Arrington outside and Chung as a deep FS.

 

[Ring 6]

The defense had one "clean" stop against Buffalo (drive stopped and punt forced, not because of penalties on offense, scores by offense, or turnovers). This is probably not the week to be telling people that the defense isn't that bad, because it certainly was "that bad" on Sunday.

Not disagreeing with your basic point, but the Wilfork strip sack should be counted as a clean stop.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Lack of passions = the new Patriot way takes the blame. [/B]

The big reason is the atmosphere of professionalism we have in the building. "Just do your job", like we have heard BB say so often. That works ok with the offense, becouse they dont need to make bang-bang plays to do well. Defense needs the angry bird -hormones and kamikaze mentality every now and then to install fear to the opponents.

IMO, 1 dumb penalty every now and then is ok, if you also deliver lots of hard and clean hits. That was also the old Patriot way, when we have Rodney Harrison and Tedy Bruschi playing on the borderline of dirty and hard. But with the new Patriot way, 1 dumb penalty might be enough for a trip to the doghouse.

The locker room and player interviews they dont show the true passion and aggression they used to, instead they always make it look like its offseason.

Even dumber than the OP's hypothesis. We took 3 dumb personal fouls on Sunday.

1. Spikes helmet hit on Fitzpatrick.

2. Dennard tackling player 5 yards out of bounds.

3. Mayo pile driving player 5 yards out of bounds.


How did that work out for us? Think Buffalo was a scared??

 

[signbabybrady]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in your 'proof' that the defense stinks is that they stopped the final drive of the game but you were worried and had no confidence?

I saw it. Who cared what gut wrenching feeling you(original poster) got. The D caused the turnover and won the game. Oh and by the way if you have been paying attention the D has shown it can cause the turnover late in key moments several times this year off the top of my head another one that comes to mind is the fumble Spikes caused vs Zona that Ghost missed the kick to blow that one.

The defense had one "clean" stop against Buffalo (drive stopped and punt forced, not because of penalties on offense, scores by offense, or turnovers). This is probably not the week to be telling people that the defense isn't that bad, because it certainly was "that bad" on Sunday.

who the hell cares about clean? penalties can often be caused by the de for instance a holding Jones that knocks them back could have prevented a sack to ignore that as being a dirty way to stop a drive is stupid. But even more foolish is to pretend a clean stop is somehow better then a turnover as a clean stop will end in a punt and shift in field position with a turnover you get the ball right there.

---

I think people get way to indepth sometimes when trying to analyze things our defense is great against the run and average at pass rushing and below average to well below average in coverage. But our defense is also well above average in turnovers. Now pay attention because here is where the key comes in all of that adds up and combined with our ridiculous offense it creates wins at more than twice the rate of losses?

Basically your D only needs to be as good as your offense needs it to be.

are there problems? of course every team has their issues and the key is being able to overcome/mask them or just catch the right opponents in the playoffs.

Can our problems be overcome/masked? We do have a talented DB coming in to help and McCourty playing safety can make a difference too.

 

[Deus Irae]

Not disagreeing with your basic point, but the Wilfork strip sack should be counted as a clean stop.

It's a forced turnover. There's nothing wrong with that but it's the whole point. With the exception of one drive, the Bills either scored, got turned over, or stopped themselves with penalties. Even the one "clean" drive had a Bills penalty in it. I just didn't count it because it wasn't the type that takes a 3rd and 1 and makes it a 3rd and 11 (it took a 3rd and 16 and made it a 3rd and 19).

The Patriots have trouble making clean stops. If they don't turn an opponent over, they're in big trouble.

 

[Deus Irae]

...who the hell cares about clean?...

If you're a Patriots fan, you should.

 

[Sicilian]

It's a forced turnover. There's nothing wrong with that but it's the whole point. With the exception of one drive, the Bills either scored, got turned over, or stopped themselves with penalties. Even the one "clean" drive had a Bills penalty in it. I just didn't count it because it wasn't the type that takes a 3rd and 1 and makes it a 3rd and 11 (it took a 3rd and 16 and made it a 3rd and 19).

The Patriots have trouble making clean stops. If they don't turn an opponent over, they're in big trouble.

I'm having a hard time remembering the details of a lot of the drives, so you might be counting this one as the "clean" stop, but the first drive which was set back by a holding penalty should count as a clean stop to me. The reason there was holding on that play was because Jones beat his man. I think credit needs to be given to the defense in those situations as well.

False starts, formation mistakes, holding when it wasn't necessary, personal fouls, that kind of thing are the Bills shooting themselves in the foot. A holding on Jones means the defense did it's job. Overall your point is still sound though, this is just arguing semantics really.

 

[mayoclinic]

FWIW, some thoughts from Bill Parcells:

Report: Parcells thinks Belichick will make adjustments

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Lets put it this way.....

If the Bills even had only half of their penalties on sunday,they would have won

If the Bills had no or less than 3 penalties all game,I think they would have won and won considerably easy

The Bills certainly were the better team sunday but they lost the game because of themselves,the Pats had no answers on defense all day.

Always good to get an ugly win than a pretty loss,but I was not proud of the way they played on sunday....only Woodhead was the bright spot on a dark day.

 

[Finnishfan]

Even dumber than the OP's hypothesis. We took 3 dumb personal fouls on Sunday.

1. Spikes helmet hit on Fitzpatrick.

2. Dennard tackling player 5 yards out of bounds.

3. Mayo pile driving player 5 yards out of bounds.


How did that work out for us? Think Buffalo was a scared??

You call my point dumb, yet you didn't get it.

Please go read that again and think if it was dumb penalties I was calling for... Seriously..

 

[AzPatsFan]

The Patriots pass defense statistics, 2012:

Opp Comp %: 66.0% (26th)
Opp Yds/Att: 8.1 (29th)
Opp Pass TD: 19 (29th)
Opp Passer Rating: 97.3 (28th)
Opp Pass Yds/G: 285 (29th)

In other words, the Pats have one of the worst four pass defenses in the NFL, pretty much by every metric available. What they do have going for them is this:

(1) They force a lot of turnovers: 10 INT (6th) and 13 FUM (the 23 takeaways is #3 in the NFL).

(2) They are actually not bad at sacking the QB: 20 (16th).

So those two things (especially the turnovers) mask their pass defense deficiencies, believe it or not. If they were even an average team in getting turnovers, the pass defense numbers would look even worse.

The proof of the pudding is the record 6-3, which says we win 2/3 of our games.

I'm sure Muhammed Ali's "Rope-a-Dope" strategy wasn't good or fun to watch, as he let his opponent punch himself out, before he went on to win. BB's strategy is the same.

With a few more pass rushers and a few more talented secondary players, so we don't have to play too many UDFAs, BB could change strategies, to have a "dominating" Defense.

I would like to make the observation that Bruschi wasn't Bruschi until he had six years of experience. Ninko wasn't this Ninko for more than 5 seasons. This Defense despite its problems has consistently been at the top or near top in turnovers, for three seasons. That is NOT luck. Indeed the lack of turnovers told BB he had to strip down the D, and send the veterans out to pasture.

A poor Coach would have waited until 2-14 loomed, but BB stepped up and started the rebuild, that is still on going.

As was pointed out by another post, the entire starting secondary doesn't possess 5 years of experience between them. On another post, Deus Irae pointed out our secondary consists of 2 UDFAs, two high draft pick CBs, one of which is on IR again, and a rookie. Our Safety crew consists of an average veteran FA, an often injured high pick, and two rookies, one of which never saw the field in college other than ST, except for Rugby. Fortunately there is speed and talent there, but it is hardly experienced nor consistent.

Yet consistently they win.

 

[Marqui]

FWIW, some thoughts from Bill Parcells:

Report: Parcells thinks Belichick will make adjustments

I wonder why he said "they could use another pressure player off the corner" when they already have 2 starting DEs in place.

 

[BradyFTW!]

The secondary sucks, sure, but they're young, talented, and inexperienced. As is the majority of our pass rushers. If you're going to be bad, it's a pretty good silver lining if there's reasonable expectation that you'll get better.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I wonder why he said "they could use another pressure player off the corner" when they already have 2 starting DEs in place.

Rotation. The best defenses have more than two guys who can generate pressure off the edge. Look at the Giants, how many do they have?