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Jerod mayo is in his fifth season. Except for Wilfork, every single player on the defense is new and most positions, and the whole based defense, has changed.

Our brutal rebuilding program consisted of a Super Bowl appearance, a continuation of ten years or so without winning less than ten games, including recent 13 and 14 game winning seasons. Sorry, if that is too frustrating to bear, I don't know what to say. We're having big problems in the secondary, but they're trying things. Look at the corners being cut with huge multi year contracts elsewhere. Almost everyone's having trouble with pass defense. I think we just need depth in the front seven, we're young, I'm patient. Buffalo figured Mario Williams was the instant answer, well, I'm glad we don't have that money tied up.

People should really be forced to root for a team like Buffalo that kicks away wins. Get a little perspective maybe.

Kudos RayC, you knocked it out of the park on this post....covered the salient points nicely.
 
It's only natural that people are going to be frustrated when our defense has been struggling that long.

Personally, I don't have problems with griping—so long as:

(A) That's not all someone's doing. There are a few posters here who seem to be almost exclusively negative: if they're posting, it's to complain about a player, or how the team is going to lose, etc. I'm not saying people have to write posts they don't believe, but would it kill them, if instead of writing 20 posts on how awful the secondary is, they write 18 posts on how awful the secondary is, and 2 posts on something positive about the team?

(B) It's at least somewhat based in fact. If it's just based on irrational hatred (see: NEM), hello ignore button.
 
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Everyone is entitled to post here. But I have noted a coterie of newer fans who are so bored with simply winning, that they must tear down the efforts of the Team when ever it's not Perfect. And sometimes even then too.

The "perfection cancer" even seems to be spreading to a few established posters too, who should know better.

The particular direction of their current ire is the secondary. But they have criticized the #1 Offense in the league as well. So they are equal opportunity haters.

Now they have taken it into their heads that the Coaches are to blame for having produced only the winning most record in the League over the past five or ten years. They, in their infinite hubris and wisdom, have decided the Coaching is poor; and the rookies and sophomores talentless, because of their lack of Perfection..

Shades of the commentary that led to Paul Brown being fired by the Cleveland Browns, because although he got his tream ot the Championship game, he hadn't won recently, so "the league had passed him by". That was after he created the most successful expansion franchise in history; and would do it once again, after he was let go.

They don't seem to know or remember how fragile it is to Win. Expereinced Pats Fans know very well, watching the teams fielded by Clive Rush, and a host of other failures.

These are "The Goode Olde Days" and they don't know it... or care.
90% of patriot fans love the offense and it's players......The defense is what's pissing off most fans.

You can't tell me these haven't been the most frustrating years of watching the defense....It feels at times the defense can't stop anything.

Mark sanchez torching the defense was my tipping point.
 
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This "perfection cancer" theory and whining about "spoiled" fans is BS.

I frankly worry more about the people that would ignore all problems and just whistle in the dark. The cancer of complacence. Which do you think BB has? Is he a perfectionist, or does he ignore problems? Which are you in life? I know what I am, and I use the same standards on my football team even though I know no human can ever meet them.

BB doesn't put the film in the can for wins. He pores over it to find places to improve. Why shouldn't we? Sure sometimes it goes overboard, just as the people wearing rose-colored glasses can go overboard with their praise of the Patriots, praise that would make you think we have no weaknesses despite having loss a third of our games so far.

The truth is probably in the mean somewhere, and most of us realize it. We are a very good team, blessed with an amazing QB/Head Coach combination. We have a bad defense (just look at the numbers, for goodness' sake), but luckily our offense is good enough to keep us in the game.

People who have strong opinions different from the previous paragraph are probably extremists or trolls or noobs or in denial.

These types of threads have come up too much. If you don't want to read people poring over problems, then stop coming here and stick with Facebook. The Patriots do press releases there that are invariably positive. Even after losing Super Bowls.
 
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This "perfection cancer" theory is BS and you seem to have gotten way too into your own theories. This is a stupid thread.

I frankly worry more about the people that would ignore all problems and just whistle in the dark. The cancer of complacence. Which do you think BB has? Is he a perfectionist, or does he ignore problems? Which are you in life? I know what I am, and I use the same standards on my football team even though I know no human can ever meet them. BB doesn't put the film in the can for wins. He pores over it to find places to improve. Why shouldn't we? Sure sometimes it goes overboard, just as the people wearing rose-colored glasses can go overboard with their praise of the Patriots, praise that would make you think we have no weaknesses despite having loss a third of our games so far.

The truth is probably in the mean somewhere, and most of us realize it. We are a very good team, blessed with an amazing QB/Head Coach combination. We have a bad defense (just look at the numbers, for goodness' sake), but luckily our offense is good enough to keep us in the game.

People who have strong opinions different from the above paragraph are probably extremists or trolls or noobs or in denial.

I've printed this out, framed it and hung it on my wall as an outstanding example of the voice of reason. Bravo!
 
That's the ticket. Yup, it's the 'haters' lacking the perspective.

Haters? No, I wouldn't term y'all haters. I think most of you want the team to win and don't like that they aren't winning enough or convincingly enough. Count me as one of those who grit my teeth watching the defense continually give up a lot of yards.
Yet when you (plural) see that deficiency of winning especially convincingly and/or dominantly, the responses are sometimes way over the top for the reality, lacking some basic logic and -- as the OP was getting at -- lack perspective. While the perspective was spelled out pretty clearly by RayC and AJ and others, I'd also put it this way: 75% of the team fans in the league will see the Patriots play and win most of the time. They'll then read posts from you (plural). I think they would accurately conclude you are a spoiled, impulsive bunch.
Hey, you gotta write what you gotta write and this is a forum for letting it fly no matter what POV you are coming from. Yet, imho, you'd be well served to temper it with that perspective (and that does not or should not equal just being a rah rah guy).

I painted a broad brush for a whole group of posters. I readily admit you (singular) and others may not be as extreme (if very much at all) as some others. Again, I'm speaking broadly about a large group of posters that the OP was calling out....
 
Everyone is entitled to post here. But I have noted a coterie of newer fans who are so bored with simply winning, that they must tear down the efforts of the Team when ever it's not Perfect. And sometimes even then too.

The "perfection cancer" even seems to be spreading to a few established posters too, who should know better.

The particular direction of their current ire is the secondary. But they have criticized the #1 Offense in the league as well. So they are equal opportunity haters.

Now they have taken it into their heads that the Coaches are to blame for having produced only the winning most record in the League over the past five or ten years. They, in their infinite hubris and wisdom, have decided the Coaching is poor; and the rookies and sophomores talentless, because of their lack of Perfection..

Shades of the commentary that led to Paul Brown being fired by the Cleveland Browns, because although he got his tream ot the Championship game, he hadn't won recently, so "the league had passed him by". That was after he created the most successful expansion franchise in history; and would do it once again, after he was let go.

They don't seem to know or remember how fragile it is to Win. Expereinced Pats Fans know very well, watching the teams fielded by Clive Rush, and a host of other failures.

These are "The Goode Olde Days" and they don't know it... or care.

I have news for ya, AZ - - the secondary is godawful.

Let's see if Talib can help it.
 
...People should really be forced to root for a team like Buffalo that kicks away wins. Get a little perspective maybe.

When the Patriots were having linebacker issues, you were little or no different than the people you're complaining about now. You're being hypocritical with this.
 
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This "perfection cancer" theory and whining about "spoiled" fans is BS.

I frankly worry more about the people that would ignore all problems and just whistle in the dark. The cancer of complacence. Which do you think BB has? Is he a perfectionist, or does he ignore problems? Which are you in life? I know what I am, and I use the same standards on my football team even though I know no human can ever meet them.

BB doesn't put the film in the can for wins. He pores over it to find places to improve. Why shouldn't we? Sure sometimes it goes overboard, just as the people wearing rose-colored glasses can go overboard with their praise of the Patriots, praise that would make you think we have no weaknesses despite having loss a third of our games so far.

The truth is probably in the mean somewhere, and most of us realize it. We are a very good team, blessed with an amazing QB/Head Coach combination. We have a bad defense (just look at the numbers, for goodness' sake), but luckily our offense is good enough to keep us in the game.

People who have strong opinions different from the previous paragraph are probably extremists or trolls or noobs or in denial.

These types of threads have come up too much. If you don't want to read people poring over problems, then stop coming here and stick with Facebook. The Patriots do press releases there that are invariably positive. Even after losing Super Bowls.

This post sums it up for me.
Most of the complainers justify it in this way, acting as if what they think, feel or say will make any kind of a difference.
This post introduces complacency to the discussion, as if it would be a crime for a fan to take an approach that could be considered complacent, since somehow that would cause the team to be complacent, or even encourage it.
There is even a parallel drawn to this being a terrible approach because surely BB isn't being complacent.

I guess this is the epitome of what I find so frustrating on this board. People actually act as if their demanding 'championship caliber' postings will make the team better and someone who takes a positive approach has just doomed the team to ignore its problems.
Everyone has the right to post however they want, within the guidelines, just as everyone has the right to sound like an idiot.
In my opinion, 'discussing' negatives is healthy, but whining about them incessantly comes off as foolish. When the big picture is as good as there is to make sweepingly negative judgmental statements makes you look ignorant.
Couching the whining by pretending that doing so has any effect whatsoever on the team and the issues makes such posts unreadable.

That is my 2 cents.
 
Haters? No, I wouldn't term y'all haters. I think most of you want the team to win and don't like that they aren't winning enough or convincingly enough. Count me as one of those who grit my teeth watching the defense continually give up a lot of yards.
Yet when you (plural) see that deficiency of winning especially convincingly and/or dominantly, the responses are sometimes way over the top for the reality, lacking some basic logic and -- as the OP was getting at -- lack perspective. While the perspective was spelled out pretty clearly by RayC and AJ and others, I'd also put it this way: 75% of the team fans in the league will see the Patriots play and win most of the time. They'll then read posts from you (plural). I think they would accurately conclude you are a spoiled, impulsive bunch.
Hey, you gotta write what you gotta write and this is a forum for letting it fly no matter what POV you are coming from. Yet, imho, you'd be well served to temper it with that perspective (and that does not or should not equal just being a rah rah guy).

I painted a broad brush for a whole group of posters. I readily admit you (singular) and others may not be as extreme (if very much at all) as some others. Again, I'm speaking broadly about a large group of posters that the OP was calling out....

I'm not sure why you think I'm part of "you (plural)". I'm not a 'hater', which was mentioned in the OP btw and hence my referencing it, I'm just a person who really dislikes other people telling me what I should be thinking. I'm very happy for those who want to see no fault with the Patriots praise them as much as they like. I think it's extremely healthy to have dispirited debate about the Patriots, to question everything, to consider all possibilities and I even think those who want to run the Patriots down should be free to do so because that's what freedom is all about.

Personally I think the Patriots are an outstanding ball club, owned by an outstanding owner, led by an outstanding coach and 'captained' by an outstanding QB. It is a joy being a Pats fan. But questioning is never wrong and those who try to 'bully' those who do question the Patriots are the ones who discredit this forum.

And FWIW, I do "temper" what I write every day because I try to take a dispassionate approach to analysing the Patriots and the draft and that by it's very nature is tempered.
 
When the Patriots were having linebacker issues, you were little or no different than the people you're complaining about now. You're being hypocritical with this.

We weren't drafting linebakers then, were we? As i recall we couldn't draft linebackers because we only converted defensive ends into linebackers, so we had to wait until we acquired enough lower round defensive ends. The conversion was so uncertain, we couldn't waste a top pick on a LB.

Apparently that theory changed since then. They've drafted three players in the first two rounds, who were linebackers in college and they are all starting at linebacker now.

Are you saying i was right?
 
We weren't drafting linebakers then, were we? As i recall we couldn't draft linebackers because we only converted defensive ends into linebackers, so we had to wait until we acquired enough lower round defensive ends. The conversion was so uncertain, we couldn't waste a top pick on a LB.

Apparently that theory changed since then. They've drafted three players in the first two rounds, who were linebackers in college and they are all starting at linebacker now.

Are you saying i was right?

You were wrong. You eventually admitted you were wrong. We're not going over this again. The point here is that you were just as bad about that as the people you're complaining about now are being about the secondary. You're being a hypocrite.
 
Personally, I don't have problems with griping—so long as:
A) That's not all someone's doing. There are a few posters here who seem to be almost exclusively negative: if they're posting, it's to complain about a player, or how the team is going to lose, etc. I'm not saying people have to write posts they don't believe, but would it kill them, if instead of writing 20 posts on how awful the secondary is, they write 18 posts on how awful the secondary is, and 2 posts on something positive about the team?

(B) It's at least somewhat based in fact. If it's just based on irrational hatred (see: NEM), hello ignore button.

I'm sorry, but I don't recognize exactly WHO you guys are talking about?

YOU or AZ CARE TO NAME NAMES? Even the most negative Nelly on this board posts about more than just the secondary and Patricia. I can't think of anyone who is so singleminded and negative all the time. I assume AZ's original post was in part prompted by Ken's post. Well considering he writes WAR AND PEACE everytime he posts that he puts in 5 sentences of concern is OH SO WAY OVER THE TOP. THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END.

And to throw out the NEM accusation is REALLY OVER-THE TOP on your part. Those who lived through the full (going back to 2000-01) NEM time (across multiple boards) can tell you there is nobody here who approaches that level of single-minded negative obsession who is completely unwilling to discuss alternative opinions. In fact the opposite is the point: that the point of most of those "negative" threads, is TO GENERATE DISCUSSION. The nature of a board like this is that folks may often over-sensationalize their OP or subject line TO GET DISCUSSION ROLLING. But they are trying to talk about it and learn. But some folks want them to go away and remain ignorant so those folks can also stay in your little safe info bubble as well.

I TOO think there is a Patsfans problem; and part of it, Guys, is in the MIRROR, - the folks who want to be board nazis and cut off all discussion by just throwing out the accusation of 'newbie' or 'pink hat'.

I am not so ill-informed or ignorant of the past that I don't know that 1-15 seasons are possible nor that 12-4 is Normally a top 4 team. But, I can also be disapointed that my team lets QBs who are inept with less than a 50% passer rating for the season, play vs Pats with a 68-75% passer rating. I can also be disappointed after we all marvelled at BB's ability to navigate a rebuilding year with a SB appearance and made tremendous off-season moves that appeared like they were going to vastly improve the team. As a previous poster mentioned; this is as much about reality not matching to EXPECTATIONS (FOR THIS SEASON) as it is about the pats overall record for this year (as one among many seasons).

Naturally you can't have that same level of expectation for every single year. But expectations for a SB just-barely loser that everyone THOUGHT made great strides off-season are naturally higher.

And there are issues; so I personally welcome all opinions as to WHY the issues are there. I am confident I at least will learn something.

I will feel free to gloss over the posts I think are stupid, Ignore a poster I think is not worth my time (I have never used ignore, but the option is there), not post to threads that I still enjoy reading, and post when I get upset /excited/annoyed enough (Like now). In sum; I will continue to ENJOY PATSFANS.COM as a free-choice consumer, and REFUSE TO BE DICTATED TO by any self-righteous opinion police.
 
I'm not saying the defense is ready, in fact its almost brand new in the front seven and there's been a lot of trouble and injuries in the secondary.

However, people seem to want to compare it to the defense BB built in 2001. Only problem is, the heart of it was hardly built then, in fact it was drafted and already went to a super bowl with another coach. He inherited a nucleus of Law Bruschi Johnson and McGinest who had played together something like 5 to 7 years.

You might recall that McGinest was injured all the time and missed, or barely contributed, enough that many thought he should retire well before 2001. Law was talented but inconsistent, one good year, one lethargic one. Bruschi was a too short Defensive end who was only good as a situational pass rusher. It took years before he really became a full time inside linebacker. I even forgot Milloy. I guess the theory that you build a team like you build a cup of instant coffee doesn't pan out, does it?

It's only a few years into a youth movement and like i say, if people want to bash everybody on the defense, I don't care. I'm looking for improvement. For the time being, I'm happy they didn't dump Nincovich and Cunningham, but I'd like to see a penetrating DT.

The secondary has been in such flux, I'd just like to get guys healthy to see where we stand. No substitute for playing together.

My fear is that Chung might have a chronic shoulder problem. Can't play strong safety (type) if you can't use your shoulder.
 
You were wrong. You eventually admitted you were wrong. We're not going over this again. The point here is that you were just as bad about that as the people you're complaining about now are being about the secondary. You're being a hypocrite.

They didn't draft three linebackers in the first two rounds and a pass rusher? I recall they hadn't drafted a linebacker higher than 5th and that guy crapped out.

They most definitely did what i wanted, so you're saying Spikes, Mayo, Hightower and Jones are washouts. Well, you're entitled to your opinion.
 
I thought the PatsFans forum was a place to discuss the team, weaknesses or strengths. You want the whole forum to be "GO PATS" and "TFB" posts?

Why can't we talk about the problems the team is having? Why is it not allowed to be disappointed when the offense can't close out a game and the defense makes Ryan Fitzpatrick look like a half-decent QB? Moreso, why is it taboo to express my disappointment on this forum.

You want everyone to line up and agree with everything the coaching staff and front office does? You want to be complacent with 'just winning'? I'm complacent with 'just winning' when it's February. Right now, the way they win is important.
 
As a newer poster, I'd like to weigh in on the topic. I have been a long time lurker and remember well how insane some of NEM's posts were. I don't see anything like that on the board anymore it's far more constructive then that. The truth is this Defense is horrable and has been horrable for a couple years now. There has been rule changes to favor the offense and defenses are still adjusting. I do not fault Bellicheck's thinking that focusing less on yards and 3 and outs and more on turnovers with an ELITE offense is the way to go. Yeah Brady has to be perfect but he is so more often then any other QB in the league. Answer me this is there any other player in the league you would choose to give you a consistently week in and week out great performance?

Here is the real reason to complain about the defense to me. Both BB and TB are students of the game and know it's history. Both are currently rated somewhere in the top 5ish all time by fans, media, and players. One more superbowl together is all it would take for them to be legit conversation for GOAT. Two absolutly cements it and ends all debate. That is what they are playing for and why being SO close TWICE is as frustrating as it is. I don't want there to be any debate, I want the stats to bear out what my eyes tell me in that my favorite team has the greatest coach and qb of all time and these teams have been truely special. The window is closing. I would say realistically that they go out together at a max 5 years from now so while I agree with the idea of having a playoff caliber team year in and year out and have enjoyed watching that immensly, it would kill me if this amazing duo went out without at least one more Ring.
 
had
90% of patriot fans love the offense and it's players......The defense is what's pissing off most fans.

You can't tell me these haven't been the most frustrating years of watching the defense....It feels at times the defense can't stop anything.

Mark sanchez torching the defense was my tipping point.

I can tell you there have been more frustrating years. Try 1990: 1990 NFL Opposition & Defensive Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Last in rushing yards allowed, 27th out of 28 teams in passing yards allowed and points allowed. Record: 1-15.

Thank God Al Gore hadn't invented the Internet and Ian had not yet invented the messageboard before then.
 
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This "perfection cancer" theory and whining about "spoiled" fans is BS.

I frankly worry more about the people that would ignore all problems and just whistle in the dark. The cancer of complacence. Which do you think BB has? Is he a perfectionist, or does he ignore problems? Which are you in life? I know what I am, and I use the same standards on my football team even though I know no human can ever meet them.

BB doesn't put the film in the can for wins. He pores over it to find places to improve. Why shouldn't we? Sure sometimes it goes overboard, just as the people wearing rose-colored glasses can go overboard with their praise of the Patriots, praise that would make you think we have no weaknesses despite having loss a third of our games so far.

The truth is probably in the mean somewhere, and most of us realize it. We are a very good team, blessed with an amazing QB/Head Coach combination. We have a bad defense (just look at the numbers, for goodness' sake), but luckily our offense is good enough to keep us in the game.

People who have strong opinions different from the previous paragraph are probably extremists or trolls or noobs or in denial.

These types of threads have come up too much. If you don't want to read people poring over problems, then stop coming here and stick with Facebook. The Patriots do press releases there that are invariably positive. Even after losing Super Bowls.

This post sums it up for me.
Most of the complainers justify it in this way, acting as if what they think, feel or say will make any kind of a difference.
This post introduces complacency to the discussion, as if it would be a crime for a fan to take an approach that could be considered complacent, since somehow that would cause the team to be complacent, or even encourage it.
There is even a parallel drawn to this being a terrible approach because surely BB isn't being complacent.

I guess this is the epitome of what I find so frustrating on this board. People actually act as if their demanding 'championship caliber' postings will make the team better and someone who takes a positive approach has just doomed the team to ignore its problems.
Everyone has the right to post however they want, within the guidelines, just as everyone has the right to sound like an idiot.
In my opinion, 'discussing' negatives is healthy, but whining about them incessantly comes off as foolish. When the big picture is as good as there is to make sweepingly negative judgmental statements makes you look ignorant.
Couching the whining by pretending that doing so has any effect whatsoever on the team and the issues makes such posts unreadable.

That is my 2 cents.

A couple of thoughts:

1. It's a fan board, so people are free to post their thoughts, within limits of civility and board rules.

2. Diversity of opinion to a large extent fuels the board, as has been noted. It would be boring if we all agreed.

3. Constructive criticism is always welcome, and sugar-coating things or turning a blind eye to problems is just delusional. I doubt anyone is happy with the secondary play, or likes the soft zone schemes and often apparent lack of aggressiveness on defense, just to pick a couple of examples. It's certainly not unreasonable to speculate that Patricia, a first year DC, has looked in over his head at times. But those things can be done constructively rather than destructively, and there are times that posters have taken an extremely hostile tone to a team that has an unparalleled track record of success in the modern NFL era.

4. We shouldn't delude ourselves that anything we say makes one whit of difference. We're just fans. BB will be merciless in analyzing the deficiences of the team. But he's also pragmatic, and we don't know all of the constraints that he has to deal with.

With that in mind, there are times that entire threads seem to be taken over by negativity, and times when the board seems to reach near melt down status with negativity, even when we win. All teams struggle, even the good ones. Look at Pittsburgh last night, the Giants the last 2 weeks, San Francisco at home against St. Louis, etc.

I don't want to discourage freedom of speech or criticism of the team's flaws, but people might want to consider it in the context of how successful we've been. Personally, I don't really care much how we're playing right now. We're going to the playoffs, and this is just the "pre-season" as far as I'm concerned. I'm happy to have the Pats stumble and bumble through the pre-season and fly under the radar, only to hit their stride in January. Let the Texans and Falcons have their glory now.

There are big problems to be fixed. It remains to be seen whether BB can fix them. But I'm not sure I see any cause to bash the team for it's past or present success.
 
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