NFL in Toronto?

[carolinatony]

Think there's a chance that Toronto could get a NFL team?
I know the economy in and around the city of Buffalo is dead. I work with people from this area and there is no growth at all. Most people are moving south for jobs.
Their owner Wilson has been complaiing about being a small market city.
Not starting a rumor ,just asking

 

[Seymour93]

No.

First of all, the Bills are not moving in this decade or the next. The more likely franchises to move are the Jags, followed by the Chargers, IMO, and they'd move to L.A. or if that doesn't work... Chicago. The NFL is not an international sport.

 

[richpats]

The NFL is not an international sport.

Ha!

Preseason game in China.

Regular season games in Mexico City and London.

Just give it time.

EDIT: I do agree that the Jags will be the first to go- they have to cover seats and didn't look to even sell out the seats for our game. Not a big league town.

 

[NEPat]

Think there's a chance that Toronto could get a NFL team?
I know the economy in and around the city of Buffalo is dead. I work with people from this area and there is no growth at all. Most people are moving south for jobs.
Their owner Wilson has been complaiing about being a small market city.
Not starting a rumor ,just asking

Do you live in the area? I've heard the rumors too, but I didn't know if it was realistic or a serious thing, or just things getting thrown around in the press. I'd be curious to know if and how the local media is reporting on it, and what the fans think.

Preseason game in China.

Oh God, I've forgotten all about that. Can't wait for Belichick's press conferences in China

 

[Seymour93]

Ha!

Preseason game in China.

Regular season games in Mexico City and London.

Just give it time.

Big difference in playing exhibition games overseas and moving a team to a foriegn country. They've been playing baseball and basketball around the world for years, meanwhile football is relatively new to them.

The NFL wouldn't make it in Toronto because it's the Phoenix of Canada. Also Canada already has a slightly successful professional league that's popular in the western provinces. If you were to move a team to Canada it would be to Calgary or some cowboy town like that, but there's plenty of cowboy towns in America that would be ahead in line for an NFL franchise than a city in another country.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Toronto is certainly an international city of sufficient size to support a team,and probably more attractive than some current venues. But the NFL would instantly involve itself in a massive lawsuit by the CFL. And it would be adjudicated in a Canadien Court before a Candien Jury. That probably means the NFL loses the lawsuit and mega-millions if not Billions of dollars of awarded damages.

So it won't happen.

If the CFL folded, then Toronto becomes a possible expansion of move site immediately. Pro basketball, Pro hockey and Pro baseball call Toronto home but the NFL wouldn't dare as long as the CFL were around.

 

[OntarioPatsFan]

Toronto is certainly an international city of sufficient size to support a team,and probably more attractive than some current venues. But the NFL would instantly involve itself in a massive lawsuit by the CFL. And it would be adjudicated in a Canadien Court before a Candien Jury. That probably means the NFL loses the lawsuit and mega-millions if not Billions of dollars of awarded damages.

So it won't happen.

If the CFL folded, then Toronto becomes a possible expansion of move site immediately. Pro basketball, Pro hockey and Pro baseball call Toronto home but the NFL wouldn't dare as long as the CFL were around.

Exactly. Unfortunately we have the CFL. It's not a bad brand of football, it's very pass-oriented with lots of big plays, few big hits and fewer big bodies on the line. I find it to be much more like NCAA football (except with crowds 1/10th the size). I do go to the occasional game, but I would gladly see it leave if it meant the NFL would come North. It's simply not the same game. I actually think that the CFL and NFL have an agreement regarding expansion, and even some merchandising restrictions.

I think many of you would be surprised at the number of folks up here who follow the NFL. While it certainly isn't the most popular league (obviously the NHL is), I would certainly say it rivals the CFL & NBA. And ever since the lock-out I haven't heard much baseball talk. I know of many people in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) who trek to Buffalo to see the games, and many of them are season ticket holders.

 

[carolinatony]

Toronto is certainly an international city of sufficient size to support a team,and probably more attractive than some current venues. But the NFL would instantly involve itself in a massive lawsuit by the CFL. And it would be adjudicated in a Canadien Court before a Candien Jury. That probably means the NFL loses the lawsuit and mega-millions if not Billions of dollars of awarded damages.


I didn't think of the legal issues. I do know if the Buffalo market dries up much more in the next few year their season ticket base will erode. My boss is from Buffalo and tells me there's not much left in that town.

 

[primetime]

I didn't think of the legal issues. I do know if the Buffalo market dries up much more in the next few year their season ticket base will erode. My boss is from Buffalo and tells me there's not much left in that town.

The city's disappearing. The suburbs are pretty strong though, and a good deal of their fan base comes from Toronto/Hamilton anyways, as well as Rochester. Upstate NY, outside of basically Albany because of Tech Valley and its status as state capital, is very economically depressed. Cities like Schenectady (birthplace/former HQ of General Electric), Syracuse, and Buffalo have all fallen apart.

I think if you detached upstate from NYC, it'd be more economically depressed than Montana or something like that.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

The city's disappearing. The suburbs are pretty strong though, and a good deal of their fan base comes from Toronto/Hamilton anyways, as well as Rochester. Upstate NY, outside of basically Albany because of Tech Valley and its status as state capital, is very economically depressed. Cities like Schenectady (birthplace/former HQ of General Electric), Syracuse, and Buffalo have all fallen apart.

I think if you detached upstate from NYC, it'd be more economically depressed than Montana or something like that.

Surely you don't mean that sink hole for State tax revenue on the southeastern corner of the state? Why I'll have to get my gal a new gingham dress and mount the old pick-up truck to go see what they're doing with those funds. I wonder if Ed Koch will have us in for tea if we make it there early enough?

I can't speak for Buffalo, but Syracuse seems to be pulling itself back together and smaller cities like Rome and Utica are recovering after major hits like the Griffiss Air Base closure. Frankly, I think Buffalo is it's own worst enemy, just as I think ol' Ralph is the Bills' own worst enemy.

 

[carolinatony]

How old is Ralph and who takes over after him?

 

[primetime]

Surely you don't mean that sink hole for State tax revenue on the southeastern corner of the state? Why I'll have to get my gal a new gingham dress and mount the old pick-up truck to go see what they're doing with those funds. I wonder if Ed Koch will have us in for tea if we make it there early enough?

I can't speak for Buffalo, but Syracuse seems to be pulling itself back together and smaller cities like Rome and Utica are recovering after major hits like the Griffiss Air Base closure. Frankly, I think Buffalo is it's own worst enemy, just as I think ol' Ralph is the Bills' own worst enemy.

Hey, I'm Schenectady born, Albany raised. Don't have to force me to hate NYC.

It's taken Rome and Utica years to recover from the closure of Griffiss. Syracuse was one city that never really took a big economic hit. Buffalo's just dying though. I was there a month and a half ago... the city's falling apart. Rotting buildings, abandoned lots, the works. Aside from one nice strip down Main Street and the suburbs out in the Tonawanda and Orchard Park areas, its pretty much dead.

Ralph's definitely killing the Bills though. As are the Sabres, in kind of an unfortunate, indirect way.

 

[Va_Pats_Fan]

There was talk of this 20 years ago when the Montreal franchise folded up. The NFL, at the time, stated that as long as the CFL (the older and more distinguished league The "Grey Cup" has been competed for since 1909...as opposed to the Johnny come Lately "SuperBowl" ) was viable, the NFL would never expand north. The CFL did expand south of the border for a while, before it gave up that particular business plan.

As far as size, (urban area), if Toronto was in the US, it would rank 6th over all. Behind Philadelphia, and ahead of Dallas/Fort Worth. It could, and certainly would, support a NFL team if the CFL ever folded up shop.

 

[The Sarge]

The NFL is not coming to Toronto. The league makes most of its money through its TV contract a team in Toronto would get a share of that money leaving less for the other owners. The games are already on television so the advertisers won't make much more money if a team is in Toronto. The last expansion fee was 625 million the next fee will be close to a billion and skydome is too small so you need a new stadium that could be close to another billion to build. So you could be paying 2 billion for just 8 home games a year good luck trying to make that money back.

 

[upstater1]

Think there's a chance that Toronto could get a NFL team?
I know the economy in and around the city of Buffalo is dead. I work with people from this area and there is no growth at all. Most people are moving south for jobs.
Their owner Wilson has been complaiing about being a small market city.
Not starting a rumor ,just asking

I live in Buffalo. You're completely wrong about the area's economy. Buffalo is rebounding from what it suffered in the 70s. Seriously, things have changed for the better up here. The city is experiencing revitilization in several facets. I have no idea who you're talking to, but have they been to Buffalo recently, or are they transplants from a decade ago?

Also realize that the Bills are top 10 in ticket sales for a long time.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Hey, I'm Schenectady born, Albany raised. Don't have to force me to hate NYC.

It's taken Rome and Utica years to recover from the closure of Griffiss. Syracuse was one city that never really took a big economic hit. Buffalo's just dying though. I was there a month and a half ago... the city's falling apart. Rotting buildings, abandoned lots, the works. Aside from one nice strip down Main Street and the suburbs out in the Tonawanda and Orchard Park areas, its pretty much dead.

Ralph's definitely killing the Bills though. As are the Sabres, in kind of an unfortunate, indirect way.

There you go, Buffalo is indeed it's own worst enemy, heck Cleveland seemed to be doing better last time I wandered through. Ralphie has a pretty big market to work with if he thought regionally, he's got chunks of two nations to work with, guess he's getting the wrong medications.

 

[upstater1]

The city's disappearing. The suburbs are pretty strong though, and a good deal of their fan base comes from Toronto/Hamilton anyways, as well as Rochester. Upstate NY, outside of basically Albany because of Tech Valley and its status as state capital, is very economically depressed. Cities like Schenectady (birthplace/former HQ of General Electric), Syracuse, and Buffalo have all fallen apart.

I think if you detached upstate from NYC, it'd be more economically depressed than Montana or something like that.

This isn't true at all. It's actually the opposite. Upstate would be much better off without New York City. New York is a really rich city, and with that come exceedingly high taxes. Were it not for the ability of New York City residents to pay those exorbitantly high taxes, the rest of us who live upstate would have a much saner tax policy for our region. But all the political leverage is located downstate.

Recently, Western NY has won some of the battles, so now the billions of dollars that are transferred from the power plants on the Niagara River to New York Public Housing (this is how the state pays for public housing in NYC, by transferring excess energy to the area) are going to be returned up here.

Property values in Buffalo are climbing quickly, it is not Schenectady or Syracuse. There's actual an urban core here that many people would be surprised at.

 

[upstater1]

Hey, I'm Schenectady born, Albany raised. Don't have to force me to hate NYC.

It's taken Rome and Utica years to recover from the closure of Griffiss. Syracuse was one city that never really took a big economic hit. Buffalo's just dying though. I was there a month and a half ago... the city's falling apart. Rotting buildings, abandoned lots, the works. Aside from one nice strip down Main Street and the suburbs out in the Tonawanda and Orchard Park areas, its pretty much dead.

Ralph's definitely killing the Bills though. As are the Sabres, in kind of an unfortunate, indirect way.

You missed the city. Were you on Delaware? Elmwood? Lincoln parkway? Chippewa?

Main Street is the worst part of the downtown area.

 

[2_LAW_4]

The NFL wouldn't make it in Toronto because it's the Phoenix of Canada. Also Canada already has a slightly successful professional league that's popular in the western provinces. If you were to move a team to Canada it would be to Calgary or some cowboy town like that, but there's plenty of cowboy towns in America that would be ahead in line for an NFL franchise than a city in another country.

Wow!!! Talk about someone speaking from their @ss. Common buddy, don’t just throw out random notions you have no basis of arguing or backing up. Because the CFL has thrived in those cities does not mean the NFL cannot in Toronto. Both Calgary's and Edmonton's geographic location limits sports fans to stay within a buffered area. Moreover, if you look directly below both cities and into the US, no major city with an NFL franchise is remotely close. It is reasons such as these that Calgarians and Edmontons stay loyal to their CFL teams. Furthermore, cities like Vancouver, Toronto, and some parts of Montreal prefer the NFL to the CFL. The former going to Seahawks games, while the latter two are either Bills, Jets, or Patriots fans. Both the Bills and Seahawks hold Canadian tribute day to thank the vast number of fans north of the border for supporting their franchise.

As a Torontonian, I have come in contact with recent media rumours regarding the NFL in Toronto. Although it does not seem farfetched, the likelihood, I believe, is very very slim.

A number of factors, some of which have been touched upon, are reasons why Toronto won’t get a franchise:
-Toronto does have a fan base for the Argos, albeit a very small one. Thus making it hard to run two franchises, unless the Argos folds.
-There are more taxes in Canada. Persuading players to come play in Toronto may be a hard feat to accomplish (see the Raptors and Blue Jays, and then compare them to the Leafs - big difference)
- Radio and television contracts. Someone mentioned they are a big part of the leagues income... all of CBS, FOX and NBC are American owned. Canadian television will want a piece of the pie, but will not be able to pay the incredible fees associated with televising games (unless Ted Rogers buys the team - which has been rumoured).
- Rogers Centre (skydome) isn’t big enough. The NFL requires stadiums to hold at least 60K (the lone exception is the colts, I think). A new stadium would have to be built. There are proposed areas in the periphery of the City (Downsview – access to highway, transit line, huge open green space, the site also held SARS Stock – some 400k attended).


Why is it a good idea to have a team in Toronto? Here are a few:
- Someone mentioned Toronto has the sixth largest population if it were included in the U.S. This is almost accurate. Canada uses a different geographical boundary that measures city population. It is known as the Central Metropolitan Area (CMA). The US uses a much larger spatial measure for their cities (can’t remember the name of it). If Toronto were to incorporate the US spatial standard, it would actually be the fourth largest population, and fifth largest in all of North America (1. Mexico City, NY, LA, CHI, and then Toronto). So market area is there.
- Football, and more specifically, the NFL, is widely watched in Toronto. A large portion of Buffalo Bills fans are from the Greater Toronto Area (as mentioned above - Canada day). If the Bills were to move, Toronto would make the most sense.
- Stakeholders; they got plenty of Toronto based stakeholders willing to purchase an NFL franchise. Of note, Ted Rogers and Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment have discussed partnership in the bid to get an NFL franchise.

 

[2_LAW_4]

I live in Buffalo. You're completely wrong about the area's economy. Buffalo is rebounding from what it suffered in the 70s. Seriously, things have changed for the better up here. The city is experiencing revitilization in several facets. I have no idea who you're talking to, but have they been to Buffalo recently, or are they transplants from a decade ago?

Also realize that the Bills are top 10 in ticket sales for a long time.

The Bills may be one of the top teams in ticket sales, but the reason behind that is Buffalo does have the leagues lowest average ticket price. This past season, I think it was around $46.00. Compare that to the Patriots and there is a big difference.

Also regarding Buffalo, according to census data, it is a old and declining population. Statistics dont lie, and those two variables do not bold well for the future.

I still, however, feel Buffalo wont lose their franchise.