Question for anybody at the game/that has All-22.

[Kontradiction]

Did the Jets safeties respect Lloyd's ability to get deep at all today? Looked mostly like he was in single coverage on TV.

 

[Sciz]

Remind me on Wednesday and I'll watch for it.

 

[Juddy]

I'll be checking this on wednesday but my gut instinct is that it wasn't overly respected.

 

[Kontradiction]

I'll be checking this on wednesday but my gut instinct is that it wasn't overly respected.

I feel the same way. From the TV view, which admittedly doesn't give you much, it looked like the Jets were more concerned with flooding the middle than they were about any other part of the field. What's more concerning is that the Patriots couldn't make them pay for it.

 

[Dragda]

I set myself a reminder to look at this when the make the coaches film available.

 

[Nikolai]

I was at the game and it looked like mostly single coverage. They were definitely more concerned with Welker, Gronk, and AHern, though Gronk and AHern had their share of mismatches.

 

[Kontradiction]

***bump***

 

[Rob0729]

Considering they are a team that can afford to put Cromartie on Lloyd one on one while they don't really have anyone who can cover Welker one on one, you would expect they would leave Cromartie on an island with Lloyd.

If the point of the original poster is that teams don't respect Lloyd enough to keep a safety deep, this wasn't the game to prove it. Against both Houston and Indy, the Jets did leave Cromartie one-on-one with Andre Johnson and Reggie Wayne quite a bit. That is how the Jets play.

 

[Kontradiction]

Considering they are a team that can afford to put Cromartie on Lloyd one on one while they don't really have anyone who can cover Welker one on one, you would expect they would leave Cromartie on an island with Lloyd.

If the point of the original poster is that teams don't respect Lloyd enough to keep a safety deep, this wasn't the game to prove it. Against both Houston and Indy, the Jets did leave Cromartie one-on-one with Andre Johnson and Reggie Wayne quite a bit. That is how the Jets play.

We must have been watching two different games then because whenever Johnson threatened over the top, the Jets gave Cromartie safety help. I didn't see too much of Jets-Colts, but I'll take your word for it on Wayne. Wayne had 5 rec for 87 yards. Lloyd, accoridng to many people here, was good enough to offset the release of Gaffney because, after all, the 2011 team didn't have them. So, if what you're telling me about Wayne is true, I would expect Lloyd to have had a similar stat line. It's going to be interesting when the people who can view the All-22 come back with their answer because, based upon what I saw Sunday and on the Rewind last night, the Jets shadowed not only Cromartie alone on him, but also other corners as well. For example, there was a period when Cromartie was covering both Hernandez and Gronk. That was the purpose of the question. How much safety attention did Lloyd actually demand?

 

[Rob0729]

We must have been watching two different games then because whenever Johnson threatened over the top, the Jets gave Cromartie safety help. I didn't see too much of Jets-Colts, but I'll take your word for it on Wayne. Wayne had 5 rec for 87 yards. Lloyd, accoridng to many people here, was good enough to offset the release of Gaffney because, after all, the 2011 team didn't have them. So, if what you're telling me about Wayne is true, I would expect Lloyd to have had a similar stat line. It's going to be interesting when the people who can view the All-22 come back with their answer because, based upon what I saw Sunday and on the Rewind last night, the Jets shadowed not only Cromartie alone on him, but also other corners as well. For example, there was a period when Cromartie was covering both Hernandez and Gronk. That was the purpose of the question. How much safety attention did Lloyd actually demand?

The thing is they probably should have given over the top help on Lloyd. Lloyd beat his guy several times with the ball right in his hands. He just didn't hold onto the ball. If Lloyd didn't have the case of the dropsies against the Jets, he would have had a monster game. There was one sure long TD and another 30 yarder that he dropped which was right in his hand.

Again though, one game doesn't constitute evidence of anything. The Jets had no one to cover Welker and I mean no one (at least some teams have a CB who can at least give him some coverage). They needed to double and triple team him because Wilson historically gets spanked by him and usually Revis matches up on Welker because of this.

Gaffney is a non-issue here though. He is irrelevant to the conversation. By many accounts, he struggled with the offense this summer before he was injured and may have had an attitude issue (seemed too entitled) according to many accounts. He hasn't been able to be activated on game day by the Dolphins and they are in need of WR help. He is also no help as a deep threat (which people who criticize Lloyd say is what the Pats need instead of him) and is another possession WR. If the Pats wanted Gaffney, he would be here instead of Branch. If Lloyd isn't demanding over the top safety help, neither would Gaffney.

As for Cromartie, I saw him matched up one on one with Johnson a lot, but there may have been times he got over the top help. The Texans are a heavy play action team so I seriously doubt the Jets had a lot of formations where they had two safeties (or even one) deep because you never know when they are going to run or pass with Foster and Tate being huge run threats. So I don't think they had nearly as much over the top help as you suggest.

 

[Kontradiction]

The thing is they probably should have given over the top help on Lloyd. Lloyd beat his guy several times with the ball right in his hands. He just didn't hold onto the ball. If Lloyd didn't have the case of the dropsies against the Jets, he would have had a monster game. There was one sure long TD and another 30 yarder that he dropped which was right in his hand.

The dropsies were one thing, but there was only one where he was wide open on and it looked like busted coverage. I believe the 30 yarder that you're talking about was the 9 route down the sideline where Cromartie was stride for stride with him and was only almost a TD because of an absolutely beautiful throw by Brady which was knocked away by Cromartie anyway. Again, one on one coverage.

Again though, one game doesn't constitute evidence of anything. The Jets had no one to cover Welker and I mean no one (at least some teams have a CB who can at least give him some coverage). They needed to double and triple team him because Wilson historically gets spanked by him and usually Revis matches up on Welker because of this.

Again, I may be wrong on this and anybody with All-22 access can feel free to correct me, but I didn't see a whole lot of safety attention dedicated to him in either the Seattle or Denver games either.

Gaffney is a non-issue here though. He is irrelevant to the conversation. By many accounts, he struggled with the offense this summer before he was injured and may have had an attitude issue (seemed too entitled) according to many accounts. He hasn't been able to be activated on game day by the Dolphins and they are need of WR help. He is also no help as a deep threat (which people who criticize Lloyd say is what the Pats need instead of him) and is another possession WR. If the Pats wanted Gaffney, he would be here instead of Branch.

1. It's been shown several times that Gaffney threatened all levels of the field in 2011.

2. Gaffney left camp with an injury. If he didn't leave that injury, the odds that he's here instead of Branch go through the roof.

 

[Kontradiction]

As for Cromartie, I saw him matched up one on one with Johnson a lot, but there may have been times he got over the top help. The Texans are a heavy play action team so I seriously doubt the Jets had a lot of formations where they had two safeties (or even one) deep because you never know when they are going to run or pass with Foster and Tate being huge run threats. So I don't think they had nearly as much over the top help as you suggest.

Based upon what I saw when they rolled the overhead footage, there was usually one safety deep. The safety was typically on Johnson's side of the field. The Jets would have to be absolutely suicidal to not give Cromartie safety help on one of the best receivers in the league.

 

[Rob0729]

The dropsies were one thing, but there was only one where he was wide open on and it looked like busted coverage. I believe the 30 yarder that you're talking about was the 9 route down the sideline where Cromartie was stride for stride with him and was only almost a TD because of an absolutely beautiful throw by Brady which was knocked away by Cromartie anyway. Again, one on one coverage.



Again, I may be wrong on this and anybody with All-22 access can feel free to correct me, but I didn't see a whole lot of safety attention dedicated to him in either the Seattle or Denver games either.



1. It's been shown several times that Gaffney threatened all levels of the field in 2011.

2. Gaffney left camp with an injury. If he didn't leave that injury, the odds that he's here instead of Branch go through the roof.

Gaffney at all levels of the field was debunked already. He is a possession receiver and not a deep threat. He caught two passes on balls thrown over 30 yards last year (and only four more from 21-30 yards). In 2010, Lloyd caught 9 balls over 31 yards (only one last year, but he had no one throwing to him). He is not a threat at all levels at all. He would command no more over the top help than Lloyd. Gaffney has never been nor ever will be a deep threat.

Gaffney left camp with an injury. He was on the street and actively looking for a job when they brought back Branch and wanting to come back to the Pats. They could have easily took him over Branch if they wanted him.

As for Lloyd, don't make up busted coverage crap to make your point. Lloyd does beat his guys. Not always.

 

[Rob0729]

Based upon what I saw when they rolled the overhead footage, there was usually one safety deep. The safety was typically on Johnson's side of the field. The Jets would have to be absolutely suicidal to not give Cromartie safety help on one of the best receivers in the league.

Johnson is not one of the best receivers in the league this year. In fact, he has been rather average for much of the year. And the jets did leave him alone on him a lot. They got burnt doing it early for a TD where Johnson burnt him pretty badly and then Cromartie played him tough the rest of the game.

 

[12ClutchFactor]

I haven't watched all of it, but from what I have seen the Jets did not feel threatened by Lloyd in the least. Most of what I saw was just single coverage with no over the top help.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think people are misreading what Lloyd should be bringing to the team. He's not bringing double coverage, because he's not a deep burner. He's bringing a less compact offense (but only if he's a factor), because he widens the field to in the 10-25/30 yard area. He's going to force safety play to be wider and to be ready to roll on the deep ball. That's all that's needed, if Gronk, Welker and Hernandez are healthy. Well, I say "all" when I should be saying that it would be all that is needed if the team had a WR3 who could keep the other side honest. I'm not sure either Branch or Edelman can do that right now.

 

[Rob0729]

I think people are misreading what Lloyd should be bringing to the team. He's not bringing double coverage, because he's not a deep burner. He's bringing a less compact offense (but only if he's a factor), because he widens the field to in the 10-25/30 yard area. He's going to force safety play to be wider and to be ready to roll on the deep ball. That's all that's needed, if Gronk, Welker and Hernandez are healthy. Well, I say "all" when I should be saying that it would be all that is needed if the team had a WR3 who could keep the other side honest. I'm not sure either Branch or Edelman can do that right now.

I agree with that. I never expected him to be a deep threat, but an outside threat. Deep threats unless you have a Moss or Larry Fitzgerald or at least a near elite deep threat are the most overrated thing in football. An outside threat is what is most needed which the Pats didn't have last year.

And I agree, if Gronk and Hernandez were 100%, we would be seeing the affects of Lloyd much more than we have.

 

[Kontradiction]

Gaffney at all levels of the field was debunked already. He is a possession receiver and not a deep threat. He caught two passes on balls thrown over 30 yards last year (and only four more from 21-30 yards). In 2010, Lloyd caught 9 balls over 31 yards (only one last year, but he had no one throwing to him). He is not a threat at all levels at all. He would command no more over the top help than Lloyd. Gaffney has never been nor ever will be a deep threat.

Where was it debunked? Certainly not in that thread. As I remember correctly, you actually yielded that point to me. But I'll point it out again...

1. Gaffney caught 68 passes last season.

2. 27% were short, 39% were middle/intermediate, 22% were deep, 12% were bombs.

That's the very definition of someone that threatened all levels of the field. He did it when he was last with the Patriots as well.

Gaffney left camp with an injury. He was on the street and actively looking for a job when they brought back Branch and wanting to come back to the Pats. They could have easily took him over Branch if they wanted him.

Gaffney was looking for a job right after the Patriots cut him too. Doesn't change the fact that he was still injured. The Patriots needed help right then and brought in Old Reliable, which I don't fault them for. And I'm not buying the rumor that he had "attitude issues" either. If he did, he wouldn't have openly wanted to come back to New England.

As for Lloyd, don't make up busted coverage crap to make your point. Lloyd does beat his guys. Not always.

I'm not saying he never beats his guys. But if we're talking about the same play, it was the first Lloyd drop. That drop looked to be more of a product of busted coverage.

 

[Kontradiction]

I think people are misreading what Lloyd should be bringing to the team. He's not bringing double coverage, because he's not a deep burner. He's bringing a less compact offense (but only if he's a factor), because he widens the field to in the 10-25/30 yard area. He's going to force safety play to be wider and to be ready to roll on the deep ball. That's all that's needed, if Gronk, Welker and Hernandez are healthy. Well, I say "all" when I should be saying that it would be all that is needed if the team had a WR3 who could keep the other side honest. I'm not sure either Branch or Edelman can do that right now.

This is true. Lloyd has never been a guy that had gotten open based off of speed alone. He's used his athleticism and route running to do it. My question was more or less a general question to start the thread based on what I saw in the Jets game.

 

[Rob0729]

Where was it debunked? Certainly not in that thread. As I remember correctly, you actually yielded that point to me. But I'll point it out again...

1. Gaffney caught 68 passes last season.

2. 27% were short, 39% were middle/intermediate, 22% were deep, 12% were bombs.

That's the very definition of someone that threatened all levels of the field. He did it when he was last with the Patriots as well.

Gaffney caught two ball thrown from 31-40 yards and 0 over 40 yards. That is 2.9% of his receptions that were considered a bomb (if you consider a pass under 40 yards a bomb), not 12%. I don't know where you got your 12% number, but it is not correct. He caught 4 balls from 21-30 yards which is only 5.9% percent and not 22%. So even if you count all the balls he caught over 21 yards as bombs, it only accounts for 8.8% of his passes. But when is a pass for under 30 yards considered a bomb? That means 91.2% of Gaffney's receptions were either short or intermediary which is a classic definition of a possession WR.

You argument of Gaffney as a deep threat was debunked this summer when he was cut.

Jabar Gaffney Stats, Splits - Miami Dolphins - ESPN

His breakdown of receptions by yards passed is at the bottom.

Gaffney was looking for a job right after the Patriots cut him too. Doesn't change the fact that he was still injured. The Patriots needed help right then and brought in Old Reliable, which I don't fault them for. And I'm not buying the rumor that he had "attitude issues" either. If he did, he wouldn't have openly wanted to come back to New England.

You may not buy the rumors, but that doesn't mean they weren't true. If the Pats truly wanted Gaffney, they would have made room for him on this team. They obviously didn't.