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Is PATs zone coverage the problem?


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JR4

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I read something recently that indicated the PATs secondary was better
when playing man coverage.

So has the league found a way to beat the PATs zone coverage schemes?
We know Tom Brady loves a D playing zone against him. Maybe the other
D's have learned how to get receivers open on PATs zone coverage.

If so, Do PATs have the players to play man coverage more than they
do at present?
 
Phil Sims gave this opinion during the telecast. Thus I would say it's a guess and likely not right!

It does make sense that players are more timid setting up in zones though, and thus less likely to make decisive reads.
 
Willing to bet that Sam Bradford has his best statistical game of the season this Sunday, no doubt in my mind.

Why don't be design some blitz packages to atleast make the QB think quicker and make a quicker decision with the ball ?

Why don't we play more press-man, play more physical with the DBs?

Why do we continue to beat this soft zone Cover-2 scheme into oblivion by never changing and continually making mediocre QBs like Matt Flynn alot of future money.

Why doesn't BB change a defensive scheme that hasn't worked in the recent past, isn't working currently and will not work in the future?

I really don't know why, he's BB, it's almost like he's doing it out of spite now, just to piss everyone off.
 
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It's more personnel than scheme. Every shell has its pros and cons, but the cons will always be magnified with crappy players. The frustrating thing is that Cover 2 is supposed to prevent the big play but forces the opposition to dink and dunk more; but the Pats have been giving up both
 
Willing to bet that Sam Bradford has his best statistical game of the season this Sunday, no doubt in my mind.

Why don't be design some blitz packages to atleast make the QB think quicker and make a quicker decision with the ball ?

Why don't we play more press-man, play more physical with the DBs?

Why do we continue to beat this soft zone Cover-2 scheme into oblivion by never changing and continually making mediocre QBs like Matt Flynn alot of future money.

Why doesn't BB change a defensive scheme that hasn't worked in the recent past, isn't working currently and will not work in the future?

I really don't know why, he's BB, it's almost like he's doing it out of spite now, just to piss everyone off.

I've thought this before, But then sometimes I think "BB is to smart for this". Like he's lulling everyone into thinking "This is who they are", but then WHAM come Dec he kicks into turbo and starts playing Man2man, TB jumps off the bench, ralling the troops....you know, like the Giants do :rolleyes:
 
It's more personnel than scheme. Every shell has its pros and cons, but the cons will always be magnified with crappy players. The frustrating thing is that Cover 2 is supposed to prevent the big play but forces the opposition to dink and dunk more; but the Pats have been giving up both

It's a combination of personnel and schematic fit. Devin McCourty did much better in zone coverage than in man. Ras-I Dowling appears much better suited for man coverage than for zone.

Personally I think the Pats would be better off with more physical CBs outside playing man coverage and with McCourty and Wilson at safety where they are more suited to a zone role. Steve Gregory seems more suited to a 3rd safety/rotational role than as a starter. I don't mean to malign Patrick Chung, who has made his share of plays for us, but his coverage liabilities just seem to make him the odd man out.
 
It's a combination of personnel and schematic fit. Devin McCourty did much better in zone coverage than in man. Ras-I Dowling appears much better suited for man coverage than for zone.

Personally I think the Pats would be better off with more physical CBs outside playing man coverage and with McCourty and Wilson at safety where they are more suited to a zone role. Steve Gregory seems more suited to a 3rd safety/rotational role than as a starter. I don't mean to malign Patrick Chung, who has made his share of plays for us, but his coverage liabilities just seem to make him the odd man out.

well said:agree:
 
It's a combination of personnel and schematic fit. Devin McCourty did much better in zone coverage than in man. Ras-I Dowling appears much better suited for man coverage than for zone.

Personally I think the Pats would be better off with more physical CBs outside playing man coverage and with McCourty and Wilson at safety where they are more suited to a zone role. Steve Gregory seems more suited to a 3rd safety/rotational role than as a starter. I don't mean to malign Patrick Chung, who has made his share of plays for us, but his coverage liabilities just seem to make him the odd man out.

My thoughts are awfully similar, except that I'd use McCourty as the Cover 1 safety quite a bit, thus removing a lot of the SS's deep coverage responsibilities, in which case I'd prefer Chung over Wilson. That'd leave Wilson as the #3 and dime TE killer, leaving Gregory as the odd man out. But, depending on how good (or bad) Arrington is in the slot, I think Gregory at least deserves a shot there if he's not playing safety. Slot corner is where Gregory started his NFL career on defense.
 
average corner backs and pass rush and bad safteys thats the problem
 
My thoughts are awfully similar, except that I'd use McCourty as the Cover 1 safety quite a bit, thus removing a lot of the SS's deep coverage responsibilities, in which case I'd prefer Chung over Wilson. That'd leave Wilson as the #3 and dime TE killer, leaving Gregory as the odd man out. But, depending on how good (or bad) Arrington is in the slot, I think Gregory at least deserves a shot there if he's not playing safety. Slot corner is where Gregory started his NFL career on defense.

I like your thoughts here, particularly in the first scenario leaving Gregory as the odd man out, or 'depth' guy.

I honestly don't see Arrington giving way to Gregory in the slot, but it's an interesting thought too.
 
Problem 1, inexperience, our D backfield last year totalled less than 6 years NFL experience..

Problem 2, lack of padded practices, the CBA limits the amount of padded practices.. all last week there were "walk throughs", yesterday there was a "walk through".. there is only so much that can be accomplished by this mandated method. Games become padded practices..
 
Problem 1, inexperience, our D backfield last year totalled less than 6 years NFL experience..

Problem 2, lack of padded practices, the CBA limits the amount of padded practices.. all last week there were "walk throughs", yesterday there was a "walk through".. there is only so much that can be accomplished by this mandated method. Games become padded practices..

SEA - Earl Thomas 3rd year Richard Sherman - 2nd year Browner - CFL player that became NFL starter last year Kam Chancellor 3rd year

Problem 2 - that's not the same for every team?

This secondary unit has been together enough time that they should actually show some improvement - not break the team records they set the year before. We have spent more on DBs than most teams and we can't field a competent unit? It's either the coaching,drafting,scheme or maybe even all 3. Something is a miss.
 
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SEA - Earl Thomas 3rd year Richard Sherman - 2nd year Browner - CFL player that became NFL starter last year Kam Chancellor 3rd year

Problem 2 - that's not the same for every team?

This secondary unit has been together enough time that they should actually show some improvement - not break the team records they set the year before. We have spent more on DBs than most teams and we can't field a competent unit? It's either the coaching,drafting,scheme or maybe even all 3. Something is a miss.

Really?

Here was your starting backfield last game: Dowling - 0 years, Wilson - 0 years, Dennard - 0 years, McCourty 3rd year. Seattle backfield looks close to retirement next to this group. This secondary unit barely knows each other's names.
 
Really?

Here was your starting backfield last game: Dowling - 0 years, Wilson - 0 years, Dennard - 0 years, McCourty 3rd year. Seattle backfield looks close to retirement next to this group. This secondary unit barely knows each other's names.

The starters were Arrington(4th year) Chung(4th year) Gregory( not even sure,backup in SD) McCourty(3rd year)

And it really makes no difference if we have Dowling(2nd year) or Wilson,Dennard out there over the starters. The rookies might actually be better than few of the starters.
 
My thoughts are awfully similar, except that I'd use McCourty as the Cover 1 safety quite a bit, thus removing a lot of the SS's deep coverage responsibilities, in which case I'd prefer Chung over Wilson. That'd leave Wilson as the #3 and dime TE killer, leaving Gregory as the odd man out. But, depending on how good (or bad) Arrington is in the slot, I think Gregory at least deserves a shot there if he's not playing safety. Slot corner is where Gregory started his NFL career on defense.

I'm not trying to bash Chung. He's been a solid player for us. But (1) he can't stay healthy for a full season, and (2) he's a significant liability in coverage. I can live with Brandon Spikes being a significant liability in coverage because he's such a beast in other respects and makes so many impact plays, but have 2 back 7 players who are major liabilities in coverage is a big problem.

Rodney Harrison had some interesting thoughts on Chung today:

The expectation for Patrick Chung this season was to make the leap from very good player to something greater. To further blossom into the leader and quarterback of the secondary. And to be an impactful player every game. This is, after all, Chung’s fourth season with the Patriots. It’s also a contract year, a make-or-break proposition for the safety, who was taken in the second round by the Pats in the 2009 draft. To this point, Chung hasn’t done much to help his case. If anything, he’s merely thrown more doubt onto the pile.

Former Patriots safety Rodney Harrison [stats], who retired the year before Chung arrived, said this should be Chung’s time to take charge, his time to shine. Only now he’s hurt once again. And prior to suffering a shoulder injury against Seattle, which left him on the sidelines for the win over the Jets on Sunday, Chung had made more head-scratching moves in the secondary than game-winning type plays. At this stage in his career, Chung has to be better than what he’s shown, especially in a secondary that’s struggling to survive week to week.

“The main thing is, it’s hard for a lot of players to play in that contract year because they’re trying so hard to be perfect. That contract really puts a lot of pressure on them,” Harrison said Monday. “But to be honest, it’s three going on four years now. He should have developed into one of the top-tier safeties in the league. If you think about the top safeties right now, you don’t think of Patrick Chung. Unfortunately, he has that type of ability, too.”

Harrison, an NBC analyst, believed the Pats chose wisely when they selected Chung out of Oregon. The hope was Chung would eventually lead the secondary in a similar manner as Harrison did when he was the quarterback of the Pats defensive backs. Only Chung, who stands at 5-foot-11, 212 pounds, keeps running into the injury wall and can’t stay on the field. He played in just eight games last year. We’ll see what happens with his latest injury.

“I’ll tell you this. What happens is this: They’ll give you three or four years. If you’re lucky, they’ll give you four years. That’s if you’re lucky,” said Harrison. “After 2-3 years, if you’re not getting better, and it’s getting to a point where they feel like you can’t really be the great player they want you to be, they’ll go in a different direction. If they’re willing to spend $6-7-8 million dollars a year on a safety, if you haven’t been out there, and you’re not what they think you should be, I mean, you’ve got to be dominant for that type of money from the Patriots,” Harrison went on. “And if you’re not there, you’re not going to get it. They’ll go out and get somebody else. That’s the harsh reality.”


Chung's had his 4 years, and he hasn't taken his game to the next level. He hasn't regressed Brandon Meriweather-style, but if anything his coverage liabilities have become more of an issue. Personally, I don't think it makes sense for the Pats to pony up to extend Chung and make him a cornerstone of their long term secondary plans. I'd go with McCourty/Wilson/Gregory/Ebner as a safety rotation and put the money that would be used into extending Chung into a veteran FA CB. Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, Brent Grimes and Aqib Talib are all FAs. All have issues (inconsistency for DRC, injury for Grimes and off-field issues for Talib), but all have experience and would be an upgrade at CB to pair with Dowling/Dennard/Moore and possibly Arrington depending on whether or not he stays on after this year. If the Pats let Arrington walk, that money could be combined with the money it would take to re-sign Chung to invest in a FA CB. Veteran FA CB acquisitions have proven to be solid values for Houston (Jonathan Joseph) and Dallas (Brandon Carr).
 
about 2-3 years ago our defense lived off of the zone defense, making it its bread and butter

most of our players then were better at zone

starting at about last year though our prowess as a zone D have seriously began to wither, not sure why

at this point I would pretty much play straight up man most of the time, though i do not know if that is because our man D has gotten better, or cuz our zone D has gotten so much worse
 
about 2-3 years ago our defense lived off of the zone defense, making it its bread and butter

most of our players then were better at zone

starting at about last year though our prowess as a zone D have seriously began to wither, not sure why

at this point I would pretty much play straight up man most of the time, though i do not know if that is because our man D has gotten better, or cuz our zone D has gotten so much worse


our younger corners (dowling and dennard) seem to do better in man. mccourty seems better in zone. arrington isnt particularly great at either. thats why mccourty moving to safety doesnt really present a problem...and might be ideal if we can continue to improve in man coverage and get better pressure. dowling is a walking injury that hasnt had time to really grow, and dennard is still a rookie. pats would be smart to invest in a solid man2man corner in the offseason to solidify the position a bit. too much youth can backfire.
 
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The starters were Arrington(4th year) Chung(4th year) Gregory( not even sure,backup in SD) McCourty(3rd year)

And it really makes no difference if we have Dowling(2nd year) or Wilson,Dennard out there over the starters. The rookies might actually be better than few of the starters.

Not for the last game, Chung and Gregory were both out. Dowling was basically red shirted last year and is the equivalent of a rookie in game experience. The young guys probably do in fact have talent but that doesn't mean they aren't going to make mistakes, they are, which was Daryl's point. These guys will need some time just to learn the system and to play together better. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that they can actually do that.
 
They've been burned when they played man coverage too, but the team seems to make more timely stops when they do play it and execute it well. The AFCCG is an example of that. If you want a more recent example, the Jets possessions at the end of this past Sunday's game and in overtime will do.
 
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