Curran: Patriots offense gags in crunch time again

[QuantumMechanic]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

The intentional grounding penalties need to stop, a sack is better than the loss of down+ yards. This was the difference in the game IMO.

???

The penalty for intentional grounding is essentially the same as what happens if you're sacked. The ball is spotted at the point where the QB released the ball and you lose the down. Just like if the QB was sacked there.

(the only difference is that if the spot of the grounding is less than ten yards back, it will still be a ten yard penalty)

 

[JJDChE]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

The intentional grounding penalties need to stop, a sack is better than the loss of down+ yards. This was the difference in the game IMO.

Intentional grounding: Loss of down, -10 yards
Sack: Loss of down, -5 to -15 yards

At least with the intentional grounding you have a chance it won't get called and you just lose the down. I'm not sure how the sack is any better.

 

[JMarr]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

The old axiom that the only way to stop the Pats' offense is to get Brady rattled is truer than ever.

Brady has literally been a statue since 2008. Yes, the coaches know that he's still good at sensing and subtly avoiding pressure, but they also should know that a lot of pressure can only be avoided by.....running away from it(?). Once the pocket starts to collapse, he's nothing more than a sitting duck now. Plus, his 34 year old body doesn't like getting hit anymore. Bad combination in terms of making crucial mistakes in the passing game.

It appeared that the Pats had finally realized the importance of having a balanced running/passing attack to counterbalance Brady's one glaring weakness (as well as the lack of deep threat WRs). But apparently
BB and Josh still haven't fully learned the lesson. Time for the Pats to face the reality that Brady will never win another title if they continue to ask him to win big games solely through the air.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

On the last two touchdowns by the Seattle Seahawks, led by the immortal Russell Wilson, the defense gave up a 51-yard pass with 15 yards tacked on for roughing the passer that led to the TD making it 23-17.

Two Seattle drives later, Wilson connected with Golden Tate on a 46-yard TD pass.

The lead was blown by the defense, not the offense.

wouldn't have mattered if brady hadn't choked at the end of the first half.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

The problem is that the offense always becomes extremely predictable, conservative, and often executes poorly when it comes down to the final minutes of a game in which they need to protect a small lead. I just don't understand how an offense that leads the league in first downs and was marching down the field with ease all game can't kill 2 minutes when they are given 2 separate opportunities. It makes it even worse when they can't seem to gain a single yard on a 2 minute drill when they lose the lead and have to win the game.

The offense should have sealed the deal. They only needed to get what, 2 first downs? and were given 2 straight opportunities to end it on offense. The same damn thing happens, 2 runs that go nowhere, a badly executed passing play, punt.

This isn't to say that the defense isn't to fault. They are the unit that is responsible for preventing scoring, so they get a much bigger piece of the pie, but they are also this teams glaring weakness. The offense is what drives this team and it's the unit that has to make the game winning plays. You simply can't keep giving the other team the ball back and expect this defense to prevail. The offense HAS to play keep away.

 

[JJDChE]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

The old axiom that the only way to stop the Pats' offense is to get Brady rattled is truer than ever.

Brady has literally been a statue since 2008. Yes, the coaches know that he's still good at sensing and subtly avoiding pressure, but they also should know that a lot of pressure can only be avoided by.....running away from it(?). Once the pocket starts to collapse, he's nothing more than a sitting duck now. Plus, his 34 year old body doesn't like getting hit anymore. Bad combination in terms of making crucial mistakes in the passing game.

It appeared that the Pats had finally realized the importance of having a balanced running/passing attack to counterbalance Brady's one glaring weakness (as well as the lack of deep threat WRs). But apparently
BB and Josh still haven't fully learned the lesson. Time for the Pats to face the reality that Brady will never win another title if they continue to ask him to win big games solely through the air.

Yup, Brady is the problem.

:ugh:

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

The old axiom that the only way to stop the Pats' offense is to get Brady rattled is truer than ever.

Brady has literally been a statue since 2008. Yes, the coaches know that he's still good at sensing and subtly avoiding pressure, but they also should know that a lot of pressure can only be avoided by.....running away from it(?). Once the pocket starts to collapse, he's nothing more than a sitting duck now. Plus, his 34 year old body doesn't like getting hit anymore. Bad combination in terms of making crucial mistakes in the passing game.

It appeared that the Pats had finally realized the importance of having a balanced running/passing attack to counterbalance Brady's one glaring weakness (as well as the lack of deep threat WRs). But apparently
BB and Josh still haven't fully learned the lesson. Time for the Pats to face the reality that Brady will never win another title if they continue to ask him to win big games solely through the air.

fact of e matter is brady can't carry this team by himself. i argued on this board all summer that the pats won't win another SB unless the running game takes pressure off brady. he simply cannot throw the ball 50 to 60 times a game at his age.

 

[the Patriot]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

wouldn't have mattered if brady hadn't choked at the end of the first half.

The larger the lead, the faster this defense gives up touchdowns. No lead is safe with this secondary.

 

[ensoul]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

It is not 100% on Brady. Yes the problem seems to be that the pats cannot get that elusive first down or two to win the game.

What the issue is that the the pats have a 2 or 6 point lead when they punt the ball with about 3 minutes left. Naturally with that little times the opponents have to pass. What we then witness is that DBs just getting flat out beat for HUGE gains on the sidelines pass after pass or they get flagged for PI.

At the end of day if the offense is not humming, its a close game and you have to leave the game in the defenses hands in the fourth pats are cooked. I was watching the game with 4 other people and not one of us thought the D would prevent the seahwaks from getting in the endzone on that last drive. In fact the last time I recall the D making a game winning stop was back in 2010 when the pats played the Colts and Manning was picked off.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

The old axiom that the only way to stop the Pats' offense is to get Brady rattled is truer than ever.

Brady has literally been a statue since 2008. Yes, the coaches know that he's still good at sensing and subtly avoiding pressure, but they also should know that a lot of pressure can only be avoided by.....running away from it(?). Once the pocket starts to collapse, he's nothing more than a sitting duck now. Plus, his 34 year old body doesn't like getting hit anymore. Bad combination in terms of making crucial mistakes in the passing game.

It appeared that the Pats had finally realized the importance of having a balanced running/passing attack to counterbalance Brady's one glaring weakness (as well as the lack of deep threat WRs). But apparently
BB and Josh still haven't fully learned the lesson. Time for the Pats to face the reality that Brady will never win another title if they continue to ask him to win big games solely through the air.

I have to ask.... have you watched a single game this season? I ask because Brady's been moving around all over the place, including running for touchdowns on busted plays.

Also, you may have noticed that the Patriots did run the ball 26 times against the Seahawks. Important to note though...

87 total yards

Woodhead: 4 rushes, 25 yards - Woodhead is not the bellcow RB this year
Bolden: 6 rushes, 28 yards - Bolden left due to injury

So, the team's RB1 ran 16 times for 34 yards or, essentially, for 2 yards a carry. Criticizing the Patriots for not doing more of this seems poorly thought out.

 

[letekro]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

It's not a sexy answer, but these are TEAM failures, and that includes number 12, as well as the coaching staff. When the Patriots were the best team in football, whenever the defense was struggling, the offense would step up, and vice versa. This was probably due to a combination of the following factors: 1.) Brady was in his prime on those teams 2.) the coaching staff was extraordinarily experienced and talented on those teams and 3.) those teams were far more experienced and knew what it took to overcome obstacles.

 

[Steve102]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

I am of the opinion that this franchise did much better when Brady as asked to be more of a game manager than a "sling it" type of guy. They won three super bowls with TB12 taking whatever the defense gave them, instead of chucking it down the field with more of a vertical passing game. In 2007, Route 1 bought all kind of toys for Brady to play with and the method of the madness changed. Brady was now carrying the load. They put up some eye-popping offensive stats, but they haven't won a Super Bowl since. Again, IMO, that because the cliche of "defense wins championships, offense sells tickets" is accurate.

The brain trust down in Foxboro has tried to re-build a championship defense with, lets face it, disappointing results, if you use rings as a measuring stick. They replaced arguably a HOF corner back in Ty Law with a succession of guys who, thus far at least, have not played to the level of the championship winning Patriot defenses of the past. They were not able to replace Willie McGinest until likely this season, although jury is still out on Jones, who has the look of a McGinest type. They did not replace the leadership and passion of Bruschi, Vrable and Johnson, although Hightower, Spikes, and Mayo look like they could be worthy. They haven't yet replaced Rodney Harrison, or his predecessor, Lawyer Milloy.

So, if you are looking for "nits to pick", that's where I would start looking, either at the front office for bad picks and poor free agent signings, or on the defensive side of the ball, whoever you choose to blame. They didn't lose yesterday because Brady threw picks, bounced balls, or had intentional grounding calls at inopportune times. They lost because the defense does not play at a championship caliber level yet. That doesn't mean that they can't or won't be at that level in December/January. It means that on October 15th, they can't stop the long ball, and allowed a rookie QB to take the top off the secondary. Whether or not this is true in the post season remains to be seen.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

It is not 100% on Brady. Yes the problem seems to be that the pats cannot get that elusive first down or two to win the game.

What the issue is that the the pats have a 2 or 6 point lead when they punt the ball with about 3 minutes left. Naturally with that little times the opponents have to pass. What we then witness is that DBs just getting flat out beat for HUGE gains on the sidelines pass after pass or they get flagged for PI.

At the end of day if the offense is not humming, its a close game and you have to leave the game in the defenses hands in the fourth pats are cooked. I was watching the game with 4 other people and not one of us thought the D would prevent the seahwaks from getting in the endzone on that last drive. In fact the last time I recall the D making a game winning stop was back in 2010 when the pats played the Colts and Manning was picked off.

The problem is actually the game being put back on the offense after the defense has blown a nice lead when the offense has already done enough to win the game. They almost did it last week, FFS.

 

[Brettlax3434]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

Brady not sharp when protecting leads? - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Closer to Chad Henne than Aaron Rodgers.

I know we've blown a few 4th quarter leads, but didn't realize we had blown the third most since 2009. I remember the early days when we never blew halftime leads, more than 30 in a row at one point before a Monday nighter against the Dolphins. Man, we're so spoiled.

I would argue that the defense is the reason for the blown leads. They seem to never stop other teams when the game is on the line. I recall thinking yesterday when we were up 13 points that if we did not score we would lose 24-23....We can't stop the pass.

 

[IllegalContact]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

I'm expecting a team that's put up 480 yards against one of the better defenses in the league to have done enough to win when they've given a 13 point lead to the defense facing one of the league's worst offenses.

Yes, basic stuff. No matter how often you repeat the inanity of blaming Brady, it's never going to morph into the right gripe to be making.

and vice versa........you can remain on his nutsack, seeing what you want to see. but here's the FACT about brady and his 4th quarter.

first drive:
1st and 10 SEA 15 Danny Woodhead right guard for 5 yards (tackle by Earl Thomas and Chris Clemons) 20 10 4.58 4.84
2and and 5 SEA 10 Danny Woodhead right tackle for 4 yards (tackle by Brandon Mebane and Alan Branch) 20 10 4.84 4.9
3rd and 1 SEA 6 Tom Brady pass incomplete short middle intended for Wes Welker is intercepted by Earl Thomas at SEA--3 and returned for 23 yards (tackle by Tom Brady)
CONCLUSION: brady wils a ball that nobody's going to catch......except that it got tipped and intercepted. bad play call AND bad throw by brady...but hey.....at least the defense generated a turnover of its own on the ensuing seahawk drive

2nd drive:
1st and 10 NWE 30 Tom Brady pass incomplete short left intended for Brandon Lloyd
2nd and 10 NWE 30 Tom Brady pass complete deep right to Brandon Lloyd for 23 yards
1st and 10 SEA 47 Stevan Ridley left end for no gain (tackle by Alan Branch and LeRoy Hill)
2nd and 10 SEA 47 Tom Brady pass complete short right to Danny Woodhead for 22 yards (tackle by Bobby Wagner)
1st and 10 SEA 25 Stevan Ridley right tackle for 4 yards (tackle by Kam Chancellor and Bobby Wagner)
2nd and 6 SEA 21 Stevan Ridley up the middle for 4 yards (tackle by Chris Clemons)
3rd and 2 SEA 17 Stevan Ridley right end for no gain (tackle by Richard Sherman)
4th and 2 SEA 17 Stephen Gostkowski 35 yard field goal good
CONCLUSION: 1 first down....at least there's an FG out of this one

drive 3:
1st and 10 NWE 20 Tom Brady pass incomplete short right intended for Rob Gronkowski (defended by Red Bryant)
2nd and 10 NWE 20 Tom Brady pass complete short left to Danny Woodhead for 12 yards (tackle by Bobby Wagner)
1st and 10 NWE 32 Stevan Ridley left tackle for 6 yards (tackle by Kam Chancellor and LeRoy Hill)
2nd and 4 NWE 38 Danny Woodhead right tackle for 9 yards (tackle by Kam Chancellor)
1st and 10 NWE 47 Tom Brady pass incomplete short left intended for Brandon Lloyd (defended by Brandon Browner)
2nd and 10 NWE 47 Tom Brady pass incomplete. Penalty on Tom Brady: Intentional Grounding, 10 yards
3rd and 20 NWE 37 Tom Brady pass complete short left to Wes Welker for 9 yards (tackle by Kam Chancellor)
4th and 11 NWE 46 Zoltan Mesko punts 48 yards, returned by Leon Washington for 4 yards
CONCLUSION: yep.....intentional grounding on a drive that's supposed kill time....blame the defense

drive 4:
1st and 10 NWE 41 Stevan Ridley left end for 1 yard
2nd and 9 NWE 42 Stevan Ridley right tackle for 1 yard
3rd and 8 NWE 43 Tom Brady pass incomplete short left intended for Deion Branch
4th and 8 NWE 43 Zoltan Mesko punts 39 yards, returned by Leon Washington for 25 yards
CONCLUSION: another one you need to blame the defense for

drive 5:
1st and 10 NWE 20 Tom Brady pass incomplete deep right intended for Brandon Lloyd
2nd and 10 NWE 20 Tom Brady sacked by Jason Jones for -7 yards. Penalty on NWE: Illegal Motion (Declined)
3rd and 17 NWE 13 Tom Brady pass incomplete short middle intended for Aaron Hernandez
4th and 17 NWE 13 Tom Brady pass complete short right to Wes Welker for 15 yards
CONCLUSION: 1:14 left......all the pats need is an FG. with brady, this is clockwork.....except this time.

so..... 4th quarter overall.....5 possessions, 3 points....but lets blame the defense for something everyone in the house already knew.....but can no longer hope for the offense to help with in the 4th quarter

 

[Avenger]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

Last drive we take the ball out of Brady's hands and try to run it twice in a row and go 3 and out, that wasn't on Brady.

 

[JMarr]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

Yup, Brady is the problem.

:ugh:

Duh. I could just bring up the two grounding penalties and stop there.

But maybe if I re-phrase it you'll get it: Tom Brady doesn't single-handedly win ball games anymore.

 

[PATSMATT]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

Our secondary is horrible...

The offense did more then enough to deliver us a win in that game......

I do agree we need to be more balanced with run/pass but with a D like the Seahawks that's a tough request.

The D continues to let this team down. The mismanagement of the clock at the end of the second quarter was maddening. They used their timeouts horribly and it ended up costing us 3 points and the game.

If we could get a little more pass rush that would help our DB's but... They seem to be burnt on every play that matters. I have never been so sick of seeing Chung out of position and McCourty/Arrington being burnt.

....It is squandering the few precious years we have left with Brady!

:bricks::bricks::bricks:

 

[JMarr]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

I have to ask.... have you watched a single game this season? I ask because Brady's been moving around all over the place, including running for touchdowns on busted plays.

Also, you may have noticed that the Patriots did run the ball 26 times against the Seahawks. Important to note though...

87 total yards

Woodhead: 4 rushes, 25 yards - Woodhead is not the bellcow RB this year
Bolden: 6 rushes, 28 yards - Bolden left due to injury

So, the team's RB1 ran 16 times for 34 yards or, essentially, for 2 yards a carry. Criticizing the Patriots for not doing more of this seems poorly thought out.

No, I saw the same thing you saw. Not sure whether it was obvious to you that their game plan was to pass the ball this week. They only went to the run when they needed to burn time off the clock.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Patriots, Brady: Choking on leads since 2009

No, I saw the same thing you saw. Not sure whether it was obvious to you that their game plan was to pass the ball this week. They only went to the run when they needed to burn time off the clock.

Not sure whether it was obvious to you that the running game wasn't working. Furthermore, this doesn't explain your comment about Brady being a statue when that clearly hasn't been the case this season.