Do we have too many similiar players on defense?

[patsfaninpa]

Too many big, strong, tough defenders. Not so many fast, athletic ones.

Vince Wilfork - NG - Perfect NG. Not a great pass-rusher

Kyle Love - DT - Strong, tough run defender. Not a great pass rush. Is he a good compliment to Vince considering he can't get after the qb.

Jerrod Mayo - LB - Strong tough lb. Not as athletic as i though he'd be. Doesn't make a lot of plays in space.

Brandon Spikes - LB - An absolute force vs the run. Not so good in space.

Donta Hightower - LB - Looks similiar to Spikes. A little faster

Devin McCourty - CB - Big cb. Tackles well. Plays ST. Coverage..Not so good

Pat Chung - SS - Big, tough run stuffer. Coverage. Not so good.

See a pattern? Are we building a defense to stop old man football? The game is all about getting players matchups in space. We don't seem built to defend that style of football. Chandler Jones was a great move up and pick. Thank God. Is the Hightower picking looking a little repetitive?

 

[Franchise12]

the problem can specifically be found in the secondary. the defensive front is fine and will only get better. Mayo, Spikes,and Hightower could make up the best trio of linebackers in football. vince is still dominant. chandler Jones is making plays even though hes being blatantly held by o lineman every game.

the secondary represents the biggest problem with this team

1. kyle Arrington will fail in man coverage because he barely has marginal speed. he also fails to look for the ball. last years 7 ints were the easiest i've ever seen. he made a legitimate play on the ball in 2 of his 7 picks. I,ve always felt he was better suited in a safety role where there isnt much of a premium on speed. Arrington excels in zone coverage.

2. Devin Mccourty fails to locate the football in the air and his Achilles heel is his lack of a second gear. Devin is better suited for a zone defense.

3.Patrick Chung brings all the tools in the physicality department such as delivering the big hit but he is atrocious in coverage. How many times has he been late to a reciever streaking down the sidelines. he makes our corners look worse on those deep routes because they expect him to be there to make a play on the football.

4. Steve Gregory aka Steve JAGory was a backup in San Diego for a reason.

5. we've yet to get any value from the Ras I pick. I git the feeling that his hips are still stiff from the injury last year ans its affecting his play. We certainly could use his length on the outsides.

all in all the problem is coaching. we discount the benefit of positional coaching. it is not a coincidence that as soon as pepper johnson moves over to linebackers coach, our lbs are knocking footballs out and forcing fumbles EVERY DAMN WEEK. its also not a coincidence that ever since Mangini left the patriots have failed to develop talent in the secondary. Josh boyer or who ever coaches the db's now need to be replaced with a competent positional coach. I'd take Mangini back in a heartbeat.

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

I'm perfectly fine with our front 7. I think the front seven is one of the best in the league... The secondary is what's lacking. Too many JAGS back there, and McCourty is a HUGE disappointment. If we had a Polomalu or a Revis back there, I think we are 6-0. We only lost all three games by a collective margin of 4 points!

 

[satz]

The strength of our defense has to be IN the middle.

we have vince and kyle in the middle
mayo,spikes again a strong ,Ninko is good in the sam lb and de . throw in jones. they have a good light weights

Chung - MIA since sanders got whacked and he has been asked to be the leader and run the back end
Steve- Who?..... exactly.

so unless we solify the back safety we will never go any where. Chung is best in letting him make plays and not worry about running the backend AKA sanders used to. We need to find a safety who can run the backend ,lineup the young players and let chung do what he is good at .make plays.
Also some one who plays high safety and understands he is the man who should never allow the deep center throws....like yesterday.....

 

[Double TE]

The secondary has been awful and the Pats are not even blitzing! UGH!!

Start Dennard and Dowling at CB with McCourty and Wilson at safety. Bring in Moore as a nickel and Ebner in the dime. I never want to see Chung out there again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arrington can back up Dennard and Dowling. I don't care how bad Dowling may look in practice it CANNOT get any worse. Although truthfully the Offense should have put up 35 vs. Seattle still the D wins championships and our secondary is just plain bad. I don't care about the stats just do the naked eye test!

 

[MoLewisrocks]

the problem can specifically be found in the secondary. the defensive front is fine and will only get better. Mayo, Spikes,and Hightower could make up the best trio of linebackers in football. vince is still dominant. chandler Jones is making plays even though hes being blatantly held by o lineman every game.

the secondary represents the biggest problem with this team

1. kyle Arrington will fail in man coverage because he barely has marginal speed. he also fails to look for the ball. last years 7 ints were the easiest i've ever seen. he made a legitimate play on the ball in 2 of his 7 picks. I,ve always felt he was better suited in a safety role where there isnt much of a premium on speed. Arrington excels in zone coverage.

2. Devin Mccourty fails to locate the football in the air and his Achilles heel is his lack of a second gear. Devin is better suited for a zone defense.

3.Patrick Chung brings all the tools in the physicality department such as delivering the big hit but he is atrocious in coverage. How many times has he been late to a reciever streaking down the sidelines. he makes our corners look worse on those deep routes because they expect him to be there to make a play on the football.

4. Steve Gregory aka Steve JAGory was a backup in San Diego for a reason.

5. we've yet to get any value from the Ras I pick. I git the feeling that his hips are still stiff from the injury last year ans its affecting his play. We certainly could use his length on the outsides.

all in all the problem is coaching. we discount the benefit of positional coaching. it is not a coincidence that as soon as pepper johnson moves over to linebackers coach, our lbs are knocking footballs out and forcing fumbles EVERY DAMN WEEK. its also not a coincidence that ever since Mangini left the patriots have failed to develop talent in the secondary. Josh boyer or who ever coaches the db's now need to be replaced with a competent positional coach. I'd take Mangini back in a heartbeat.

The only secondaries Mangini position coached here almost didn't need one. He wouldn't do much better with this group. Even what Bingo did was predicated almost entirely on his instincts as a receiver. Too many marginally talented and developmental players being asked to do things that don't come naturally. The front 7 meanwhile is being asked to rely almost entirely on their own wits and talent. Not sure if Boyer is competent or not, much like the players individually he is basically doing what he's told. They are so regimented and disciplined that aside from the inevitable mistakes they are not encouraged to develop any instincts. They play tight and scared on almost every snap. Too much thinking and not enough reacting. They lack a central brain, which along with being a very savvy player in his own right is what Rodney was here from 2003 until retirement.

 

[jbb9s]

Mayo, Spikes,and Hightower could make up the best trio of linebackers in football.

Someone has to call you out on this. One of those players has 3.5 career games. Another is atrocious in pass defense (which currently is about 60% of plays). The third is a FRINGE top 10 guy, I'd say squarely between #5 and #10 in the NFL.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Someone has to call you out on this. One of those players has 3.5 career games. Another is atrocious in pass defense (which currently is about 60% of plays). The third is a FRINGE top 10 guy, I'd say squarely between #5 and #10 in the NFL.

I'd take Navarro Bowman and Patrick Willis over those three. They run more of a 3-4 look. Hightower isn't going to get smaller as he gets older. I see him in Ninko's spot. He can rush the passer. Did it a lot at Bama blitzing. Strong side de who can drop into coverage. That's ideal for the new NFL. Want more of a traditional 4-3 olb to replace him. Someone who can drop and cover a te or rb. We'd never get anyone that good. But, a guy like Derrick Brooks. From last year's draft. A player like Levonte David - Nebraska.

 

[RayClay]

Too many big, strong, tough defenders. Not so many fast, athletic ones.

Vince Wilfork - NG - Perfect NG. Not a great pass-rusher

Kyle Love - DT - Strong, tough run defender. Not a great pass rush. Is he a good compliment to Vince considering he can't get after the qb.

Jerrod Mayo - LB - Strong tough lb. Not as athletic as i though he'd be. Doesn't make a lot of plays in space.

Brandon Spikes - LB - An absolute force vs the run. Not so good in space.

Donta Hightower - LB - Looks similiar to Spikes. A little faster

Devin McCourty - CB - Big cb. Tackles well. Plays ST. Coverage..Not so good

Pat Chung - SS - Big, tough run stuffer. Coverage. Not so good.

See a pattern? Are we building a defense to stop old man football? The game is all about getting players matchups in space. We don't seem built to defend that style of football. Chandler Jones was a great move up and pick. Thank God. Is the Hightower picking looking a little repetitive?

You think we should get some small cornerbacks like Seattle?

And you want to replace Wilfork and Love with defensive ends as tackles?

 

[patsfaninpa]

You think we should get some small cornerbacks like Seattle?

And you want to replace Wilfork and Love with defensive ends as tackles?

Where did I say replace Wilfork? I called him a perfect NG. Nice interpretion of something you just read. I speculated if Love is a good compliment at dt to him. We're lacking an interior pass rush. Or, do you see something there that I'm not? I did not say one thing about a de playing dt. One who can rush the qb would be my preference. Not many 6'1" 340lbers can get after the qb. Reading comprehension issues??

 

[borg]

Someone has to call you out on this. One of those players has 3.5 career games. Another is atrocious in pass defense (which currently is about 60% of plays). The third is a FRINGE top 10 guy, I'd say squarely between #5 and #10 in the NFL.

These 3 LBs are liabilities covering TEs and RBs releasing out of the backfield. Too often the RBs get ignored/lost in the shuffle and are left uncovered

 

[BradyFTW!]

Too many big, strong, tough defenders. Not so many fast, athletic ones.

Vince Wilfork - NG - Perfect NG. Not a great pass-rusher

Kyle Love - DT - Strong, tough run defender. Not a great pass rush. Is he a good compliment to Vince considering he can't get after the qb.

Jerrod Mayo - LB - Strong tough lb. Not as athletic as i though he'd be. Doesn't make a lot of plays in space.

Brandon Spikes - LB - An absolute force vs the run. Not so good in space.

Donta Hightower - LB - Looks similiar to Spikes. A little faster

Devin McCourty - CB - Big cb. Tackles well. Plays ST. Coverage..Not so good

Pat Chung - SS - Big, tough run stuffer. Coverage. Not so good.

See a pattern? Are we building a defense to stop old man football? The game is all about getting players matchups in space. We don't seem built to defend that style of football. Chandler Jones was a great move up and pick. Thank God. Is the Hightower picking looking a little repetitive?

Hightower is a "little" faster than Spikes? Seriously?

 

[BradyFTW!]

I'm perfectly fine with our front 7. I think the front seven is one of the best in the league... The secondary is what's lacking. Too many JAGS back there, and McCourty is a HUGE disappointment. If we had a Polomalu or a Revis back there, I think we are 6-0. We only lost all three games by a collective margin of 4 points!

"One of the best in the league" is a pretty significant overstatement, IMO. If our front seven was truly one of the best in the league, then it would be able to hide the general ****tiness of the secondary a lot more than ours can, primarily by generating a consistent pass rush. Any front seven that can't dial up a strong and consistent pass rush is automatically disqualified from being ranked at or near the top of the NFL.

The front seven is good, albeit slightly one-dimensional and favored toward the run. The secondary sucks. In a passing-dominated league, that's a recipe for a really bad defense. The only way this changes to the point that the secondary stops being this team's achilles heel is if one of Dennard/Dowling steps up in a big way, and Tavon Wilson does as well.

 

[VJCPatriot]

It's the secondary. The front 7 is BOTH strong and athletic.
We'll have to wait to address this issue in the next offseason though.
It's not easy finding good cover defenders and the ones that become available in free agency carry a very HEFTY pricetag.

 

[ay-yo]

BB has deviated from some of his normal tendencies to become more pass defense oriented. The 2 examples are

- having 2 300+ LB DL when in years past it's been 3
- using Cunningham as a DT in obvious passing situations.

I don't think we select players too run oriented. We just can't draft secondary talent at all.

 

[E1Downey]

the problem can specifically be found in the secondary. the defensive front is fine and will only get better. Mayo, Spikes,and Hightower could make up the best trio of linebackers in football. vince is still dominant. chandler Jones is making plays even though hes being blatantly held by o lineman every game.

the secondary represents the biggest problem with this team

1. kyle Arrington will fail in man coverage because he barely has marginal speed. he also fails to look for the ball. last years 7 ints were the easiest i've ever seen. he made a legitimate play on the ball in 2 of his 7 picks. I,ve always felt he was better suited in a safety role where there isnt much of a premium on speed. Arrington excels in zone coverage.

2. Devin Mccourty fails to locate the football in the air and his Achilles heel is his lack of a second gear. Devin is better suited for a zone defense.

3.Patrick Chung brings all the tools in the physicality department such as delivering the big hit but he is atrocious in coverage. How many times has he been late to a reciever streaking down the sidelines. he makes our corners look worse on those deep routes because they expect him to be there to make a play on the football.

4. Steve Gregory aka Steve JAGory was a backup in San Diego for a reason.

5. we've yet to get any value from the Ras I pick. I git the feeling that his hips are still stiff from the injury last year ans its affecting his play. We certainly could use his length on the outsides.

all in all the problem is coaching. we discount the benefit of positional coaching. it is not a coincidence that as soon as pepper johnson moves over to linebackers coach, our lbs are knocking footballs out and forcing fumbles EVERY DAMN WEEK. its also not a coincidence that ever since Mangini left the patriots have failed to develop talent in the secondary. Josh boyer or who ever coaches the db's now need to be replaced with a competent positional coach. I'd take Mangini back in a heartbeat.

I got *****ed out at work for saying i missed Mangina back there with the DBs, but youre absolutely correct. People get all upset when one suggests that a major part of the problem is COACHING. But we have to ask ourselves how many young DBs ha e looked great early on and then disappeared? Its NOT coincidence....

-Sent from the device that is held in my hand-

 

[BradyFTW!]

BB has deviated from some of his normal tendencies to become more pass defense oriented. The 2 examples are

- having 2 300+ LB DL when in years past it's been 3
- using Cunningham as a DT in obvious passing situations.

I don't think we select players too run oriented. We just can't draft secondary talent at all.

The sooner we can get Jones, Cunningham, Hightower, and Mayo consistently on the field at the same time, the better off we'll be with regards to pass rush.

I agree that, schematically, the Pats aren't ill-equipped to defend the pass. The talent in the secondary is just putrid. The good news is that Belichick seems to have identified the shift that's happened/is happening across the NFL in terms of who he goes after in the draft. Tavon Wilson, coming out of college, had a lot more in common with Eugene Wilson than Pat Chung, and that's a good thing.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

I think our front 7 could be top 5 in the league when healthy. I think our back 4 is worst 1 or 2 in the league. It's a shame too since so much consideration has been given to the secondary on this team the last 5 years. For whatever reason they simply cannot draft/develop DB's well. Not sure why it's such a problematic issue for the braintrust but, it's critical enough that if not rectified, it'll likely prevent this team from winning another SB title.

 

[RayClay]

Where did I say replace Wilfork? I called him a perfect NG. Nice interpretion of something you just read. I speculated if Love is a good compliment at dt to him. We're lacking an interior pass rush. Or, do you see something there that I'm not? I did not say one thing about a de playing dt. One who can rush the qb would be my preference. Not many 6'1" 340lbers can get after the qb. Reading comprehension issues??

Well, we don't play the 3-4 much anymore, which makes him one of two tackles. They switch personnel according to down and distance, but i don't think Love is a problem per se. Pryor will be coming back, but i don't think he will supplant Love, he will work in different packages. In a 4-3 defense, we have less large linemen, 2 instead of three.

When they do go with a 3-4 look, I think Love almost always plays NG now, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[RayClay]

I agree it's the secondary that's the problem. It's obvious passing downs and an inability to cover regardless how many DBs we employ.