BB on turning for the ball

[Uncle Rico]

Mods, feel free to merge with any number of McCourty threads, but as a football layman I thought his was interesting via Reiss, considering all the angst over the subject:

Bill Belichick was asked about this during his weekly appearance on sports radio WEEI (hat tip to host Glenn Ordway for broaching the subject), and here was the Q&A:

Q: On the pass interference calls when it doesn’t look like McCourty is turning his head back to look at the ball, do you believe that’s why the officials are throwing those flags?

A: What the rule is, is that if you’re looking at the ball and there is contact, it’s not a foul, unless you’re grabbing the guy or obviously flagrantly doing something. If you’re not looking at the ball, and there is contact, then it is a foul. The rule is pretty cut and dried.

Q: It seems to have happened a few times with McCourty. Is that something? It seems like he’s stride for stride with his guy, hip to hip, and then he just doesn’t turn on it. There have been some negative plays. Is that something he has to do right now – turn on that ball?

A: Well, you have to be careful. It’s fine if the ball is in the air and you turn. That’s great. But if the ball is not in the air, and you turn, and then the receiver sees you turn and goes in the other direction and uncovers, then you don’t have the guy covered. It’s a technique thing. There are different situations that the right thing to do sometimes is to look for the ball and sometimes it isn’t to look for the ball.

Q: How do you guys teach it?

A: There’s a lot of different situations. We talk about those. It isn’t about looking or not looking for the ball. If you don’t look at the ball, then you have to play the receiver’s hands and knock the ball out when the receiver tries to catch it. If you’re looking at the ball, then you play the ball -- and hopefully the ball is in the air when you look at it. Because if you’re looking at it and the ball isn’t in the air, a good receiver will just uncover. As soon as you turn your back on him, he just goes in the other direction.

Just glad someone finally asked him about it.

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

Interesting points about the goal of keeping cover on the WR.

Why would this technique not be working properly?

A - The DB is either peaking for the ball too often (allows WR to uncover) or lacks the athletic skills to maintain proper coverage

B - The DB is in good coverage, the QB throws it anyways and the DB doesn't succeed in his "play the hands" technique (luck/success example is the AFCC, for one).

C - "Other" which is probably headlined by poor communication leading to inadequate coverage on certain parts of the field. An example of this would be a CB playing outside technique while expecting a S to cover from the inside - but not getting this help due to miscommunication or a bite on play action.

 

[holyredeemer]

Sorry. Just dont buy it. There is truth is what Bill said, but at the same time, that just shows D-Mac has lost his feel for the ball. I mean come on. Want a first down? Just toss it down the field at McCourty. Instant flag.

I love D-Mac, and really want to see him succeed. He wont until these little things are fixed. What blows my mind is that he is hardly ever really beaten but as soon as that receiver goes up for that ball he loses his edge. So Bill, what did your coaches do to him?

Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Uncle Rico]

Anyone else think of Sterling Moore-Lee Evans on this quote?:

If you don’t look at the ball, then you have to play the receiver’s hands and knock the ball out when the receiver tries to catch it.

 

[cavtroop]

so this tells me the problem isn't the DB not turning to look for the ball, but knowing WHEN to turn and look for the ball. So they're not reading the WR properly or well enough, to turn when the ball is in the air. So I'm betting they're coached to NOT turn for the ball unless the read from the WR is clear that the ball is on the way. Interesting.

 

[upstater1]

It's a game situation problem. When 4 or 5 seconds have elapsed and you're in the end zone with the receiver squaring up toward the LOS, you gotta turn your head there.

 

[BradyManny]

The larger issue, which he alludes to, is the officiating and its repercussions on how corners shoud play. Face-guarding isn't illegal anymore, but with the way the rule is written (and Belichick states it plainly), and the legacy of calling face-guarding - it's just not feasible to play cornerback without turning around. You will get called for PI incessantly, even if you make little to no contact. It's stupid. But it is what it is.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

The problem with McCourty is he runs with his back to the ball and only turns to react when the receiver starts his jump to catch the ball as it descends from its flight.

At that point it is almost impossible to not interfere and cause a PI or simply not get up to the height it takes to knock it away,thus the WR hauls it in or gets hit without getting a chance to grab it,causing the PI.

Good corners keep up with thier man while also having the knack for running at a slight angle that keeps them informed if the play is designed for the man they are covering and the ball is heading thier way......that is what separates all star pros like Revis from struggling CBs like Devin.

 

[PrairiePat]

So crossing routes would generally be easier to keep an eye on the ball, since the QB is quite possibly in your field of (peripheral) vision.

The fly patterns along the sidelines, or the deep post/corner routes are probably the toughest to handle, since you really have to turn 180 degrees to see the ball in flight. If you're even with or trailing the receiver, that's a tall task. The Pats corners seem to play that technique most of the time, so ...

 

[randomk1]

Good corners keep up with thier man while also having the knack for running at a slight angle that keeps them informed if the play is designed for the man they are covering and the ball is heading thier way......that is what separates all star pros like Revis from struggling CBs like Devin.

So much of this. Watch Revis highlights - the guy does it perfectly. He is always in great position and always looks for the ball

 

[Batman]

If a DB does not know the ball in in the air his S is not communicating well enough to let him know the ball is in the air a DB can only react to what a WR is doing so if is just running stright then there is little to react to other than a player jumping. In which case he needs to work on jarring the ball loose before a catch can be completed.

As a Corner you rely on other people to communicate with you when in the trail, we use to change our call every quarter to let each other know the ball was in the air so that other teams sideline could not just shout the same thing.

 

[dannydyn]

Sorry. Just dont buy it. There is truth is what Bill said, but at the same time, that just shows D-Mac has lost his feel for the ball. I mean come on. Want a first down? Just toss it down the field at McCourty. Instant flag.

COULD NOT AGREE MORE

I’ve been saying this for a while now: Want to beat the Patriots? Forget about running the ball, forget about short slant/crossing route passes. GO DEEP – preferably in the direction of Devin Mccourtey. You are almost guaranteed to be awarded a PI call. I’ve never seen another CB playing with so much stubbornness with regards to not turning to the ball. It’s as if he does it on purpose. I don’t get it! I mean, you’re a first round pick, pro corner in the NFL, and yet you don’t understand that by not turning around (at least in the last split of a second as the receiver jumps in the air to catch the ball) you are asking for a flag?

I just don’t get it.

so this tells me the problem isn't the DB not turning to look for the ball, but knowing WHEN to turn and look for the ball. So they're not reading the WR properly or well enough, to turn when the ball is in the air. So I'm betting they're coached to NOT turn for the ball unless the read from the WR is clear that the ball is on the way. Interesting.

With all due respect to BB, and obviously I’m not trying to outsmart him, but come on… the way he presents it, as if it’s a situation of either you look for the ball or you don’t... I’m sorry, but I disagree. You see plenty of great corners in the league do these quick neck snapping look-backs to quickly spot the ball. Just like you can’t anticipate the receiver to uncover the moment you look away, the receiver also can’t anticipate your split-of-a-second quick checks to the back to spot the course of the ball. I see Revis running with the receiver (keeping his eyes on him), and in the process, does these multiple quick ball-checks with these quick neck jerks, while running down with the receiver. You don’t have to run and stare at the ball the whole time. Just do these quick checks. The receiver has no chance to break away in that short split of a second moment. Anyone who thinks this is impossible should pay more attention to some of the better CBs in the league. They’re masters at doing just that.

After all, how do you expect to go for an interception or break a catch without having a single clue where the ball is. If you don’t look for the ball, you don’t know if you’re following a receiver because he’s the target, or because he’s just a decoy drawing you away from the real target.

 

[billdog3484]

anyone else notice alfonzo dennard? i thought he was really good when out there. and in relation to this topic, he always seemed to turn his head. it looks like he has good ball skills. hopefully we will see more of him going forward

 

[dannydyn]

anyone else notice alfonzo dennard? i thought he was really good when out there. and in relation to this topic, he always seemed to turn his head. it looks like he has good ball skills. hopefully we will see more of him going forward

yes... him and Wilson... maybe we should put them at corner

 

[Big-T]

yes... him and Wilson... maybe we should put them at corner

Dennard is a corner.

The main problem as pointed out before is the safeties, if they aren't communicating then the corners aren't going to be playing well on a consistent basis.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

This thread really needs to be merged with the McCourty haters thread where this is already being discussed.

And to add to the discussion, it tracks with what AWTE said on the Planet when asked whether this was a coaching issue and if so what were they coaching...

Originally Posted by O_P_T
is it reasonable to assume this is due to coaching?

If it is due to coaching, why are the coaches instructing them to do this?

Originally Posted by All World TE]

It is due to coaching. It is a specific technique trail pass defenders drill regularly. The defenders are coached to turn around to find the ball if they are in a dominant position on the receiver. If they are not in a dominant position, they are coached to read the receiver's eyes and hands to react and attack the catch.

If the receiver can see the numbers on the front of the receiver's jersey, he is in a dominant position and should turn around to find the ball because he is in position to defend a well thrown ball over the outside shoulder.

If the defender can't see the front numbers, he is not in a dominant position and as such, he can't defend a well thrown ball if he turns around. It's not possible. He may get lucky on a short throw but the coaches drill for well thrown balls. Instead of turning around the defender accelerates and reads the eyes and hands looking to swat the ball away.

I've seen the Pats drill this. They have a receiver start from a dominant position with the defender trailing. The coach throws the ball over the outside shoulder of the receiver and the defender has to react.

I have heard this referred to as "in-phase" and "out of phase". When you're in-phase you turn around. When your out of phase you swat the receiver's hands.

 

[Bhelmet]

I whole-heartedly disagree with this philosophy. Why? Because the Pats STINK at it and it is killing us while extending opponents' drives. The theory may be valid, but it must be done with players who can execute - ours cannot.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

If that's the case, we haven't drafted a single CB since 2003 who knows how to read a WR properly. Which is probably a bigger concern than what we felt was a coaching issue.

We did bring in Bodden and Springs who on the field were fine, just unfortunately one couldn't stay healthy and the other apparently had an attitude problem.

 

[Big-T]

That is a terrible technique to coach

Who's the DB coach? Whoever it is he shouldn't be in a job much longer if he's teaching that junk, it's all well and good keeping eyes on the receiver sometimes but every time you play trail? That's the ideal time to turn and make a play at the ball!

...How about Ratgini back as DB coach? :bricks:

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The technique predates the position coach. It's Belichick's call. And the secondary sucked under Mangini in 2005...with the exception of Troy Brown and that was more on him than Eric. And prior to that it's success was based far more on talent and the ability to utilize it prior to the Polian emphasis on contact outside the 5 yard chuck rule.