Game thoughts - Peyton Manning Edition

[Rob0729]

Here we go:

1. This offense looks like a combination of the 2004 and 2011 offenses. The Pats have an uptempo balanced offense.
2. I don't think McDaniels is getting enough credit (especially since he got so much blame earlier in the season). He is still calling the plays during this uptempo stuff and the fact that they are going so uptempo it makes him to make much faster decision making. He makes bad calls still, but he is designing and calling this offense.
3. As one of the bigger McCourty defenders, I can say that he did not produce a good game yesterday. Once again, it wasn't nearly as bad as his detractors are making it. But he made some stupid costly mistakes. BTW, I didn't have a problem with him not turning to the ball on the PI in the endzone. He could have made the play without turning around on that play. His problem was he hit the receiver long before the ball was there.
4. Liked the play of Dowling and Dennard yesterday. Hopefully, they can get Sterling Moore off the field as much as possible. People are praising Moore for a textbook strip, but ignore the fact that if he missed on that strip that he would have been beat like a rented mule for a 53 yard TD. His coverage on that play was pathetic (like many other plays in that game). He needs to sit.
5. Kudos to Ninkovich. He has responded to several games of mediocre play with a pretty big game with some good pressures and a strip sack.
6. Ridley needs to hold onto the ball. He can be a special RB, but he will not be able to prove it if he is sitting on the bench because he cannot hold onto the ball. Boldin is a good compliment, but he does not have the game breaking ability that Ridley has.
7. Didn't like the 4th and 5 call. Not the play which was executed pathetically (possible the play selection was just as bad), but the fact they went for it. You are protecting a 17 point lead with a little over 8 minutes left in the 4th with the Broncos already burning a timeout. Just kick away the ball and at worst, you are giving them 80 yards of field to play with rather than 63 yards.

 

[SEA_Pat]

I'm with you on Josh McD, thought he called a great game, and his commitment to the run is something I've been looking for for a long time (is that legal grammatically?).

And to me this is part of another piece of the puzzle - football is a game of strategy, not a play-by-play series of unrelated vignettes. Why is it we say "establish the run"? It's because by committing to it, you give the defense something else they have to deal with, and it forces them to adjust their strategy. Why have the Pats for YEARS let teams "come back" in the fourth quarter with their aggravating "not so preventative" D? It's because they're trading yards for clock.

It's the same thing (to me) as using Woodhead. Yeah, sure, I get it. It's 3rd and short, and so is our running back and the end result. WHY IS HE THERE!?!?! Well, because he brings a change of pace. A great fastball pitcher without any off speed stuff will eventually get shelled because that's all the hitters have to worry about. Bringing lil' Danny in forces defenses to have to make yet another adjustment. His talent is his small size and shiftiness, his ability to get lost among the trees and find tiny holes to fit through. Must drive defenders crazy when plays like that 3rd and 17 or the called-back TD happen. The cost for that is the 3rd and 1 handoff where he gets stuffed by someone who weighs twice what he does.

Josh will stay the course because he has won the trust of the Dark Lord, and has an overall plan that takes these things into account, it seems to me. The loss to the Ravens was (IMHO) because we gave up too easy on the run, and therefore made it too easy on them to defend us (replacement refs aside). If they keep this balance, they'll be near impossible to stop as long as they keep track of their own tendencies so they remain unpredictable.

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

RE 4th and 5 call:

Tom completed just under 75% of his passes yesterday at a clip of around 9.7 yards per completion.

Overall their average yards/play was 5.0.

Those seem like good odds to me. I'll take them every time. I just wish on 3rd and 5, JMcD and BB would've just called a run since they pretty well knew they'd go for it the next down.

RE that 3rd down play though: Von Miller in coverage on Brandon Lloyd... and it works out for Miller?

 

[randomk1]

RE that 3rd down play though: Von Miller in coverage on Brandon Lloyd... and it works out for Miller?

He was all over the field. Really the only guy that kept the broncos in it.

That run stuff at end of the 1st half - settle for FG

2 sacks and i think he had the FF on Ridley?

Looks like a great player.

 

[ay-yo]

Ninko had not 1 but 2 FF's yesterday. Great stuff. He may not be a pro bowl player but he's proven the last 2 weeks why he deserves a starting spot. Let's not forget that last season he was a full time LB. He's a very versatile player that's not too expensive.

Agreed that the 4th down call was stupid.

 

[everlong]

I don't think McDaniels is getting enough credit (especially since he got so much blame earlier in the season). He is still calling the plays during this uptempo stuff and the fact that they are going so uptempo it makes him to make much faster decision making. He makes bad calls still, but he is designing and calling this offense.

If that 3rd and 17 hadn't picked up a first down he would be getting slammed today. People are too results based. The ones I get pissed about are the ones where I'm calling out the play before it happens and then it goes for no gain or a loss or just didn't make sense for the situation. The tight formation where Bolden got nailed for a 4 yard loss was one of those. Granted Wendell got blown up but the fact the defense knew what was coming didn't help.

I'll also say I was really down on Woodhead but two weeks in a row he's really bailed out the offense at key moments. I just don't want to see him getting 15 rushes again at a 3.2 YPC clip. He definitely has his place in the offense but too much of him isn't good either.

As one of the bigger McCourty defenders, I can say that he did not produce a good game yesterday. Once again, it wasn't nearly as bad as his detractors are making it. But he made some stupid costly mistakes. BTW, I didn't have a problem with him not turning to the ball on the PI in the endzone. He could have made the play without turning around on that play. His problem was he hit the receiver long before the ball was there.

A few of them no DB in the league would have faired better but he just doesn't turn his head when he's beat and had his back to the play. What's the difference between a spot fowl and and 40 yard completion? Just turn and jump and pray that's enough to not draw the flag.

Liked the play of Dowling and Dennard yesterday. Hopefully, they can get Sterling Moore off the field as much as possible. People are praising Moore for a textbook strip, but ignore the fact that if he missed on that strip that he would have been beat like a rented mule for a 53 yard TD. His coverage on that play was pathetic (like many other plays in that game). He needs to sit.

Agreed. If Moore doesn't make that strip he's getting ripped today. Dennard turning his head shows what you can get away with once you do. He was there early on two of those deep balls and had hands on the receivers arms but because he was looking up no flag. I'm not saying he was in the process of a take down in either instance but by the letter of the law he did have early contact but I like that the refs don't call that even if it was a Patriots receiver.

Kudos to Ninkovich. He has responded to several games of mediocre play with a pretty big game with some good pressures and a strip sack.

I've never understood the Ninkovich hate. He gives you 90% of Vrabel which isn't that bad. No he's never going to take a game over like McGinist could but few can.

Ridley needs to hold onto the ball. He can be a special RB, but he will not be able to prove it if he is sitting on the bench because he cannot hold onto the ball. Boldin is a good compliment, but he does not have the game breaking ability that Ridley has.

PLEASE don't let him fumble against Seattle. I don't want to see him at the bottom of the rotation even with Bolden and Vereen showing some nice change of pace.

Didn't like the 4th and 5 call. Not the play which was executed pathetically (possible the play selection was just as bad), but the fact they went for it. You are protecting a 17 point lead with a little over 8 minutes left in the 4th with the Broncos already burning a timeout. Just kick away the ball and at worst, you are giving them 80 yards of field to play with rather than 63 yards.
[/LIST]

Much like 4th and 2 my major problem is with the third down call. In that situation if you're going for it then run the ball on 3rd down to either make the other team use another timeout or kill another 40 seconds. I also would have like to have seen play action in that spot.

 

[IllegalContact]

first, without von miller, the pats would have been in the 50's again

2nd, why does Cole sound like the Broncos were in a position to win the game when they weren't that close?

Peyton Manning, Broncos let opportunities slip through fingers as offense continues to grow - Yahoo! Sports

 

[Fball]

first, without von miller, the pats would have been in the 50's again

2nd, why does Cole sound like the Broncos were in a position to win the game when they weren't that close?

Peyton Manning, Broncos let opportunities slip through fingers as offense continues to grow - Yahoo! Sports

If McGahee doesn't fumble, it's probably a 3 point game with close to 5 minutes left.

 

[NYCPatsFan]

People are praising Moore for a textbook strip, but ignore the fact that if he missed on that strip that he would have been beat like a rented mule for a 53 yard TD. His coverage on that play was pathetic (like many other plays in that game). He needs to sit.
.
[/LIST]

Thanks Rob, wish you had more such thoughts!

One quick note on the quoted point: I too thought the same but on reading Bedard's comment on the BG "...Cornerback Sterling Moore was let down by no safety help on a 43-yard pass to Demaryius Thomas on the first drive, but Moore punched the ball out and recovered the fumble", I wonder if you agree with it.

Whether or not he blew his coverage, I liked Moore for not giving up on the play and managing to rip and recover the ball and thus averting a score.

Also, are there other plays that you felt Moore wasn't good enough?

Thanks!

 

[Rob0729]

Thanks Rob, wish you had more such thoughts!

One quick note on the quoted point: I too thought the same but on reading Bedard's comment on the BG "...Cornerback Sterling Moore was let down by no safety help on a 43-yard pass to Demaryius Thomas on the first drive, but Moore punched the ball out and recovered the fumble", I wonder if you agree with it.

Whether or not he blew his coverage, I liked Moore for not giving up on the play and managing to rip and recover the ball and thus averting a score.

Also, are there other plays that you felt Moore wasn't good enough?

Thanks!

I agree with Bedard that the safety is definitely culpable for not providing support, but Moore looked to be more than a step behind well before the the pass got to him.

I give Moore the credit for making the strip play which wasn't easy, but he seemed to be burnt badly on the play. The safety was more responsible in my eyes for allowing the play to turn into a 40 plus yard play more than the catch being caught. But Bedard tends to break down things better than I do.

 

[Rob0729]

A few of them no DB in the league would have faired better but he just doesn't turn his head when he's beat and had his back to the play. What's the difference between a spot fowl and and 40 yard completion? Just turn and jump and pray that's enough to not draw the flag

I would agree with that. There was nothing McCourty could have done on the TD. He had good coverage and Manning threw the ball at Dreeson's feet and he just fell down and caught the ball. Great play by the receiver and 99 times out 100, that is an incompletion.

I've never understood the Ninkovich hate. He gives you 90% of Vrabel which isn't that bad. No he's never going to take a game over like McGinist could but few can.

I don't hate Ninkovich, but he went a stretch of a few games where he was invisible.

 

[Deus Irae]

...I don't think McDaniels is getting enough credit (especially since he got so much blame earlier in the season). He is still calling the plays during this uptempo stuff and the fact that they are going so uptempo it makes him to make much faster decision making. He makes bad calls still, but he is designing and calling this offense.

Other than the horror show that was the last 3 plays of the first half, I thought it was another very solid outing for McDaniels. He's got this offense firing on all cylinders and has done a solid job of using matchups to really exploit enemy personnel packages.

[*]As one of the bigger McCourty defenders, I can say that he did not produce a good game yesterday. Once again, it wasn't nearly as bad as his detractors are making it. But he made some stupid costly mistakes. BTW, I didn't have a problem with him not turning to the ball on the PI in the endzone. He could have made the play without turning around on that play. His problem was he hit the receiver long before the ball was there.

McCourty is still not playing at starter level. Sadly, he's still the best CB the team has. It's almost a catch22 situation at this point. On the other hand, if McCourty ever gets back to the point where he can track the ball again, much of the problem with his game will be solved.

Liked the play of Dowling and Dennard yesterday. Hopefully, they can get Sterling Moore off the field as much as possible. People are praising Moore for a textbook strip, but ignore the fact that if he missed on that strip that he would have been beat like a rented mule for a 53 yard TD. His coverage on that play was pathetic (like many other plays in that game). He needs to sit.

Moore has the ball skills but can't cover. I won't be surprised if we see Dennard has passed him as early as this week. As for Dowling, with him getting PT, we'll now get to see whether or not he's worth pinning hopes on for the future.

Kudos to Ninkovich. He has responded to several games of mediocre play with a pretty big game with some good pressures and a strip sack.

Good to see this brought up. Ninko may not consistently be a starter level player, but he was a starter level player yesterday. More than that, he was a big part of why the Patriots were able to hold on and win despite that chucklehead 4th down decision.

Didn't like the 4th and 5 call. Not the play which was executed pathetically (possible the play selection was just as bad), but the fact they went for it. You are protecting a 17 point lead with a little over 8 minutes left in the 4th with the Broncos already burning a timeout. Just kick away the ball and at worst, you are giving them 80 yards of field to play with rather than 63 yards.

Horrible call, I agree.


I just wanted to add a couple of quick points:

1.) Koppen > Wendell

2.) Jones needs to start really demanding holding calls

3.) I didn't think Manning was Manning, even though his numbers were gaudy. I seem to be in the distinct minority on that.

4.) I won't be surprised if Gregory doesn't get his starting job back. Wilson didn't seem to be any significant downgrade overall.

5.) Welker had more catches than the rest of the Patriots combined.

6.) Patriots fans owe McGahee a real debt of gratitude. He may have singlehandedly saved the game for the Patriots.

 

[upstater1]

If McGahee doesn't fumble, it's probably a 3 point game with close to 5 minutes left.

But.......
.....what if Ridley hadn't fumbled?

You really have to look at both sides of the coin. Ridley doesn't fumble and the score is 38-21. Then McGahee doesn't fumble and the score is 38-28.

Same result.

 

[MUFC7]

Other than the horror show that was the last 3 plays of the first half, I thought it was another very solid outing for McDaniels. He's got this offense firing on all cylinders and has done a solid job of using matchups to really exploit enemy personnel packages.

Well I still think he is getting used to all the weapons he has in this offense. Really good game but some stretches in the Ravens and 1st half Bills were disappointing. But I love the balance of the play calling. I think one of the reasons the OL looks so much better than in the preseason is because they have to respect the running game now.

McCourty is still not playing at starter level. Sadly, he's still the best CB the team has. It's almost a catch22 situation at this point. On the other hand, if McCourty ever gets back to the point where he can track the ball again, much of the problem with his game will be solved.

He isn't playing at a level where he can cover elite guys over a long period, but certainly at a level where he can be a solid #2 CB. Manning had somuch time yesterday because the DEs got held so much. I still give him the benefit of the doubt because he looked much better against Arizona and most parts of the Ravens game. He could have won us that game and everyone wouldn't be so harsh on him. With the time Flacco had covering a speedster like Torrey Smith who played out of his mind you have to be Revis to shut him down. He is really sometimes frustrating because some plays he plays like a true elite CB on the next play you think how the hell is he still on the field.

Moore has the ball skills but can't cover. I won't be surprised if we see Dennard has passed him as early as this week. As for Dowling, with him getting PT, we'll now get to see whether or not he's worth pinning hopes on for the future.

I thought Moore played decent as a safety last year when the horror combination was out there. But as a CB I don't think he should be often on the field of a NFL team. He has the ball skills but is that worth seeing him burned nearly every single time the opposing QB has some time? Let him play when the starters need a break but he plays way too much for my liking at the moment.

Good to see this brought up. Ninko may not consistently be a starter level player, but he was a starter level player yesterday. More than that, he was a big part of why the Patriots were able to hold on and win despite that chucklehead 4th down decision.

Ninko played a great game. Good to see him improve after a slow start! Last year he was one of the few bright spots of the D so maybe he can build on this game and we see 2 DE great on this D :rocker:

Horrible call, I agree.

I simply don't understand why they went for it on a 17 points lead. Manning must have a special place in BBs mind. I don't think there is another QB where he would do that

 

[Rob0729]

McCourty is still not playing at starter level. Sadly, he's still the best CB the team has. It's almost a catch22 situation at this point. On the other hand, if McCourty ever gets back to the point where he can track the ball again, much of the problem with his game will be solved.

Not playing at a starter level? Again, I think you go overboard with your criticism there. You can make the argument he isn't #1 CB material although I think he is, not near the top but decent. But to say he really isn't good enough to be starter in this league is going way overboard. Either you are too biased against McCourty or you are not looking at the CB play around the league.

1.) Koppen > Wendell

Let's see Koppen for a few games. Koppen had extra motivation to prove Belichick wrong last night. Let's see him if he gets extended playing time over the next few weeks. Many times players play above their actually skill level for a game when they have extra motivation.

2.) Jones needs to start really demanding holding calls

I agree he gets held too much.

3.) I didn't think Manning was Manning, even though his numbers were gaudy. I seem to be in the distinct minority on that.

I agree. People forget that the Broncos were down 31-7 until late in the third. They got 214 of their 402 yards in basically garbage time when the Pats kinda let up a bit.

6.) Patriots fans owe McGahee a real debt of gratitude. He may have singlehandedly saved the game for the Patriots.

Even if he didn't fumble the ball, the Colts would have had to scored the TD, either win the onside kick or get the Pats to go three and out, and then at least get a field goal to get to overtime. And it isn't like they were driving the length of the field on every drive at the end (they had a 90 yard TD drive, followed by a six play drive that was lost on downs, and a TD drive off the field goal).

In fact, you can say the Broncos should thank Ridley for even letting them back in the game on the fumble. Ridley rushed for 20 yards the play before he fumbled.

 

[Deus Irae]

Not playing at a starter level? Again, I think you go overboard with your criticism there. You can make the argument he isn't #1 CB material although I think he is, not near the top but decent. But to say he really isn't good enough to be starter in this league is going way overboard. Either you are too biased against McCourty or you are not looking at the CB play around the league.

It's not a bias, and it's not for lack of looking around the league. Many teams have players in roles despite those players not being starter level talent. The Patriots have 4 of them playing in their defensive secondary, one 1-2 down 'starter' in the LB corps and one playing on their defensive line. One of those happens to be Devin McCourty right now. It's a shame, too, because he's clearly got the ability to be a much better player.

To be a starter quality NFL CB, you should be able to defend/stick with, at least, WR2s generally, and be able to somewhat consistently find the football in time to break up plays. McCourty is currently not accomplishing either of those.

To be elite, you should be able to run with all but the fastest WRs, be able to defend/stick with all but the top 1-5 WRs in the league, and be fully capable of breaking up plays and making opponents really pay for bad throws via INTS and the like.

To be a CB3, you should be able to run with the slot receivers, and should be able to remain competitive against them, at least in limited space on short routes.

This team's currently got a bunch of backups at CB and S.

Let's see Koppen for a few games. Koppen had extra motivation to prove Belichick wrong last night. Let's see him if he gets extended playing time over the next few weeks. Many times players play above their actually skill level for a game when they have extra motivation.

While this is true, Koppen > Wendell has also been true for the entirety of Koppen's career, so this past weekend wasn't really any sort of aberration.

 

[Rob0729]

It's not a bias, and it's not for lack of looking around the league. Many teams have players in roles despite those players not being starter level talent. The Patriots have 4 of them playing in their defensive secondary, one 1-2 down 'starter' in the LB corps and one playing on their defensive line. One of those happens to be Devin McCourty right now. It's a shame, too, because he's clearly got the ability to be a much better player.

To be a starter quality NFL CB, you should be able to defend/stick with, at least, WR2s generally, and be able to somewhat consistently find the football in time to break up plays. McCourty is currently not accomplishing either of those.

To be elite, you should be able to run with all but the fastest WRs, be able to defend/stick with all but the top 1-5 WRs in the league, and be fully capable of breaking up plays and making opponents really pay for bad throws via INTS and the like.

To be a CB3, you should be able to run with the slot receivers, and should be able to remain competitive against them, at least in limited space on short routes.

This team's currently got a bunch of backups at CB and S.



While this is true, Koppen > Wendell has also been true for the entirety of Koppen's career, so this past weekend wasn't really any sort of aberration.

I am not going to go there again with McCourty this week. We will have to agree to disagree.

As for Koppen vs. Wendell, Koppen has been better for his career, but the guy started his first game since opening week last year. He is 33 and was declining in 2010. Wendell is serviceable at best, but I don't know if Koppen will be that if he is asked to start for a long period of time.

 

[DaBruinz]

6.) Patriots fans owe McGahee a real debt of gratitude. He may have singlehandedly saved the game for the Patriots.

Yes, let's not give ANY credit at all to Ninkovich for causing that fumble. Seriously.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes, let's not give ANY credit at all to Ninkovich for causing that fumble. Seriously.

Or we could remember that McGahee also dropped an easy 4th down conversion, and that both Rob and I had already given props to Ninkovich...

Nah.... that wouldn't lets us be DaBruinz. :bricks:

 

[Deus Irae]

I am not going to go there again with McCourty this week. We will have to agree to disagree...

You fired this off:

Either you are too biased against McCourty or you are not looking at the CB play around the league.

But you're not going to go there? You've already gone there.