Annulment Thread

[RI Patriots fan]

Well, I guess Icy feels that this is "off topic" (suddenly) so if anyone would like to continue this topic in this forum, I would be glad to continue it here.

 

[Mrs.PatsFanInVa]

Well, I guess Icy feels that this is "off topic" (suddenly) so if anyone would like to continue this topic in this forum, I would be glad to continue it here.

Did you want to limit the conversation to annulments or a broader range of why people sometimes leave a religion because of one person in particular?

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Did you want to limit the conversation to annulments or a broader range of why people sometimes leave a religion because of one person in particular?

Whatever anyone would like to discuss.....I'm open.

 

[Mrs.PatsFanInVa]

Ok, fair enough.

I had said the following in the other thread - I'm wondering if you agree or not.

I think there are alot of people who've left a religion due to the corruption of or the mistreatment by a single individual. It may take more than one instance but, in the long run, it can definitely be the cause of someone leaving a religion behind.

In my own case I was not told a monetary amount when I consulted a priest about an annulment, but I was told it would be "very expensive," "very time-consuming," and that it would involve contact with my ex - even though I had a police protection order against him and was hiding from him because I feared for my life and the life of my child.

It may very well be as you say and this particular priest, as well as whatever priest Darryl had contact with, were not following the dogma of the Church - I have no trouble believing that, to be honest...such cruelty isn't an inherent part of Catholicism, but when you're in the midst of a crisis and your resources, both physical and mental, are at a low point, you're really not going to "shop around," looking for someone who's going to be a bit more understanding of your personal situation and a bit less interested in imposing his own personal beliefs upon you instead of following the tenents of the church.

Priests, nuns, rabbis, ministers, even lay people, really need to learn and remember that they are the religion to alot of people - and whatever action they take, whatever hurtful or kind worlds they bestow, those things aren't regarded as the actions and words of an individual, they are regarded as the religion itself.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Ok, fair enough.

I had said the following in the other thread - I'm wondering if you agree or not.

First, I'd like to clear up some misinformation that you've been given.

1.) "Annulments are expensive": If you look at the Diocese of Arlington VA website, annulments cost $1200 of which they request the petitioner pay $750. Payments can be made in installments and the fee can be reduced or eliminated entirely based upon financial hardship. Seems very reasonable to me.

2.) "They are time consuming": Sadly....and I say this without knowing this priest....some priests don't like doing the paperwork at the parish level. I would answer him by saying that a marriage shouldn't be taken lightly and a proper inquiry should be done so as to determine it's validity. Depending on the grounds for annulment, I've seen some annulments granted in a few weeks because they were easy to determine (defect due to form, for instance, which constitutes half of all annulments that are granted). Some are more complicated and take about a year. Personally, I see this as very reasonable given what I see in secular courts.

3.) "It would involve contact with your ex": This is a half truth. You would not be required to "face" your ex (in person), but your ex would be contacted by mail and would be given the opportunity to respond to your petition (again, not in person). He can choose to respond or to ignore it entirely. In your case where you were in physical danger, I am sure that every precaution would be taken to ensure your safety.


Here is the Diocese of Arlington VA website page on annulments that might be helpful:


Tribunal- Frequently Asked Questions


As to your question about people leaving the church, I will agree that many people see their parish priest or nun as the religion.

For myself, I believe in the Catholic faith because I believe that ************ is God and that he left us his church to guide and serve us. I also have a personal relationship with Jesus that is the core fixture of my faith.

So when I experience a "rogue" priest or nun (and believe me, I have experienced quite a few), my faith isn't shaken because it is based upon my relationship with Jesus and my love of his universal church and not a parish priest or nun.
It would be like being married to your spouse and then joining his/her family. Maybe a member of his/her family is rude and insensitive and treats you poorly.....would that cause you to leave your spouse and his family because of what the rude family member did to you? I would assume it wouldn't cause you to leave either.

The same is true of Jesus and his church. If we truly love Jesus then we can't help but love his universal church. Now, Jesus has some crazy cousins (bad priests/nuns) but I would never let any of them come between myself and Jesus or his church.

So I would encourage Catholics who have left the church because of a priest or nun, to reevaluate their decision and take stock of their reason for being a Catholic in the first place. If it is because of love of Jesus and his church then I would encourage them to pray for the strength to return to the church so they're not separated from the one they love.

Hopefully, this was helpful.

 

[Mrs.PatsFanInVa]

First, I'd like to clear up some misinformation that you've been given.

1.) "Annulments are expensive": If you look at the Diocese of Arlington VA website, annulments cost $1200 of which they request the petitioner pay $750. Payments can be made in installments and the fee can be reduced or eliminated entirely based upon financial hardship. Seems very reasonable to me.

It was really good of you to look that up....but none of this occured in Virginia. And while $750.00 may sound "very reasonable" to you, it wouldn't have sounded reasonable at all to me - at the time. Most people who've just gotten divorced aren't in the best of financial shape.

2.) "They are time consuming": Sadly....and I say this without knowing this priest....some priests don't like doing the paperwork at the parish level. I would answer him by saying that a marriage shouldn't be taken lightly and a proper inquiry should be done so as to determine it's validity. Depending on the grounds for annulment, I've seen some annulments granted in a few weeks because they were easy to determine (defect due to form, for instance, which constitutes half of all annulments that are granted). Some are more complicated and take about a year. Personally, I see this as very reasonable given what I see in secular courts.

A smart person would probably apply for both at the same time...but most people aren't smart.

3.) "It would involve contact with your ex": This is a half truth. You would not be required to "face" your ex (in person), but your ex would be contacted by mail and would be given the opportunity to respond to your petition (again, not in person). He can choose to respond or to ignore it entirely. In your case where you were in physical danger, I am sure that every precaution would be taken to ensure your safety.

You may be right...but, having been in that place, I'd have trusted exactly NO ONE to protect my safety. There was a horrible moment in the court house where I was giving my testimony against my ex - when my ex showed up because someone in my own lawyer's office had screwed up and told his lawyer I would be there that day - his lawyer told him.

As to your question about people leaving the church, I will agree that many people see their parish priest or nun as the religion.

For myself, I believe in the Catholic faith because I believe that ************ is God and that he left us his church to guide and serve us. I also have a personal relationship with Jesus that is the core fixture of my faith.

So when I experience a "rogue" priest or nun (and believe me, I have experienced quite a few), my faith isn't shaken because it is based upon my relationship with Jesus and my love of his universal church and not a parish priest or nun.

Most people, when faced with a "rogue" priest simply believe him. That's what they've been told to do since birth.

It would be like being married to your spouse and then joining his/her family. Maybe a member of his/her family is rude and insensitive and treats you poorly.....would that cause you to leave your spouse and his family because of what the rude family member did to you? I would assume it wouldn't cause you to leave either.

Actually, we have very little contact with my husband's family. Most people would not leave their spouse, no, but many times family contact is avoided.

The same is true of Jesus and his church. If we truly love Jesus then we can't help but love his universal church. Now, Jesus has some crazy cousins (bad priests/nuns) but I would never let any of them come between myself and Jesus or his church.

See above statement.

So I would encourage Catholics who have left the church because of a priest or nun, to reevaluate their decision and take stock of their reason for being a Catholic in the first place. If it is because of love of Jesus and his church then I would encourage them to pray for the strength to return to the church so they're not separated from the one they love.

One can "truly love Jesus" without loving His church. I have never felt "separated" from God simply because I no longer attend a church. "God" does not live inside a church - He simply lives inside. He's either in you or He isn't - where you go or how you worship doesn't make it so.

Hopefully, this was helpful.

It was heartening - I'm not really looking for "help." If I wanted to return to a Catholic Church, I would. I was just trying to point out to you that many people do leave a religion because of an individual and bad/false information given to them by that individual.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

It was really good of you to look that up....but none of this occured in Virginia. And while $750.00 may sound "very reasonable" to you, it wouldn't have sounded reasonable at all to me - at the time. Most people who've just gotten divorced aren't in the best of financial shape.



A smart person would probably apply for both at the same time...but most people aren't smart.



You may be right...but, having been in that place, I'd have trusted exactly NO ONE to protect my safety. There was a horrible moment in the court house where I was giving my testimony against my ex - when my ex showed up because someone in my own lawyer's office had screwed up and told his lawyer I would be there that day - his lawyer told him.




Most people, when faced with a "rogue" priest simply believe him. That's what they've been told to do since birth.



Actually, we have very little contact with my husband's family. Most people would not leave their spouse, no, but many times family contact is avoided.



See above statement.



One can "truly love Jesus" without loving His church. I have never felt "separated" from God simply because I no longer attend a church. "God" does not live inside a church - He simply lives inside. He's either in you or He isn't - where you go or how you worship doesn't make it so.



It was heartening - I'm not really looking for "help." If I wanted to return to a Catholic Church, I would. I was just trying to point out to you that many people do leave a religion because of an individual and bad/false information given to them by that individual.

The $750.00 is a suggested amount for those who can afford it. For those who can't afford it, arrangements can be made to extend payments over a long period of time or eliminate the cost altogether. So I think that even for those going through a divorce and who might be destitute $0 - $750 (depending on need) is very reasonable.

As for loving Jesus without loving his church, I think we have to look to God's revelation in the bible and see what he has to say about how he wants to be loved:

"For our love for God means that we obey his commandments. And his commands are not too hard for us." 1 John 5:3

"If you love me (Jesus), you will obey my commandments" John 14: 15


So if we truly love Jesus, we will obey his commandments.
Jesus was very clear that he would build a church and that church would have the authority to speak for him :

"And so I tell you, Peter: you are the rock and on this rock I must build my church, and not even death will be able to overcome it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven: what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven."
Matthew 16: 18-19


"Jesus said to the Apostles, peace be with you. As the Father has sent me so I send you. Then he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men's sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." John 20: 22-23


So we know that Jesus left us his church and he gave authority to that church. So if we love Jesus, then we must obey his commands and if Jesus left us this church with his authority then we must obey his church in matters of faith. To the extent that we obey his church, is the extent to which we love his church and the extent that we love his church is the extent to which we love Jesus.

As Catholics, it is impossible for us to have a true love for Jesus (rooted in obedience) if we don't love his church. Now, this doesn't mean that we can't be angry with individuals in the church for their actions. We have a right and a responsibility to respectfully admonish those in authority when they contradict the Gospel of ************ (in word or deed), but to abandon or hate his church is not a true virtue and contradicts a true love of Jesus grounded in obedience.

If you look at all the great saints in the history of the church, most have experienced some level of pain in dealing with people within the church.
Whether it be St. Francis, St Catherine of Sienna, or even St Joan of Arc all experienced personal strife with individuals in the church but remained committed to the church even if it cost them their lives.

So I find it impossible to believe that Jesus would call us to love him by being obedience, establish a church which he then gives authority to over it's members, sends great saints to help preserve, and then allow us to leave???

 

[Wolfpack]

Well, I guess Icy feels that this is "off topic" (suddenly) so if anyone would like to continue this topic in this forum, I would be glad to continue it here.

Just don't dare ask him clarfiy rules for you or you'll be perma-banned from the poli forum.

 

[ExiledBostonPat]

So I find it impossible to believe that Jesus would call us to love him by being obedience, establish a church which he then gives authority to over it's members, sends great saints to help preserve, and then allow us to leave???

Jesus: love me and obey me unconditionally or daddy will see you tortured in hell for all eternity. Doesn't sound like love to me, more like blackmail, a mafia 'protection' racket.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Jesus: love me and obey me unconditionally or daddy will see you tortured in hell for all eternity. Doesn't sound like love to me, more like blackmail, a mafia 'protection' racket.

God doesn't force us to love him. If we choose not to love him on earth, why would we choose to love him in heaven?

Hell is the absense of God for all eternity......a choice we make on our own with the free will that is given to us.

 

[IllegalContact]

God doesn't force us to love him. If we choose not to love him on earth, why would we choose to love him in heaven?

Hell is the absense of God for all eternity......a choice we make on our own with the free will that is given to us.

the interpretation of the love given is the question......and are these gods rules or someone who is saying that they're gods rules?

is the golden rule not enough?

 

[RI Patriots fan]

the interpretation of the love given is the question......and are these gods rules or someone who is saying that they're gods rules?

is the golden rule not enough?

Love of God, according to my Catholic faith anyways, can be measured in obedience to God.


"If you love me (Jesus), keep my commands" - John 14:15


John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commands.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." - Jesus

Seems like a really nice guy.

 

[IllegalContact]

Love of God, according to my Catholic faith anyways, can be measured in obedience to God.


"If you love me (Jesus), keep my commands" - John 14:15


John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commands.

this does not come across as the teachings of an individual.....but rather a group that wishes to oppress....

I personally believe that much has been embellished by others

 

[Lifer]

The $750.00 is a suggested amount for those who can afford it. For those who can't afford it, arrangements can be made to extend payments over a long period of time or eliminate the cost altogether. So I think that even for those going through a divorce and who might be destitute $0 - $750 (depending on need) is very reasonable.

As for loving Jesus without loving his church, I think we have to look to God's revelation in the bible and see what he has to say about how he wants to be loved:

"For our love for God means that we obey his commandments. And his commands are not too hard for us." 1 John 5:3

"If you love me (Jesus), you will obey my commandments" John 14: 15


So if we truly love Jesus, we will obey his commandments.
Jesus was very clear that he would build a church and that church would have the authority to speak for him :

"And so I tell you, Peter: you are the rock and on this rock I must build my church, and not even death will be able to overcome it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven: what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven."
Matthew 16: 18-19


"Jesus said to the Apostles, peace be with you. As the Father has sent me so I send you. Then he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men's sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." John 20: 22-23


So we know that Jesus left us his church and he gave authority to that church. So if we love Jesus, then we must obey his commands and if Jesus left us this church with his authority then we must obey his church in matters of faith. To the extent that we obey his church, is the extent to which we love his church and the extent that we love his church is the extent to which we love Jesus.

As Catholics, it is impossible for us to have a true love for Jesus (rooted in obedience) if we don't love his church. Now, this doesn't mean that we can't be angry with individuals in the church for their actions. We have a right and a responsibility to respectfully admonish those in authority when they contradict the Gospel of ************ (in word or deed), but to abandon or hate his church is not a true virtue and contradicts a true love of Jesus grounded in obedience.

If you look at all the great saints in the history of the church, most have experienced some level of pain in dealing with people within the church.
Whether it be St. Francis, St Catherine of Sienna, or even St Joan of Arc all experienced personal strife with individuals in the church but remained committed to the church even if it cost them their lives.

So I find it impossible to believe that Jesus would call us to love him by being obedience, establish a church which he then gives authority to over it's members, sends great saints to help preserve, and then allow us to leave???

You seem to be adding things to those Bible verses that arent there. This is the Rock i will build my church.....Peters Faith is the Rock. We, His people, are the church. Where in those verses is he mandating big buildings and organizations with people in charge and 501's?

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I'm baffled that anybody would pay a penny to a church for an annulment when they're getting divorced.

Of course I'm not a catholic, and am only slightly more familiar with hypocrisy in Judaism, whereby it does happen that exes hold up the religious divorce process to extract some concession.

Feh. When you're done you're done. Some fu(ktard -- particularly one who's never been married himself -- is not extracting tree-fitty from me to scrub up my marriage.

The truth is the truth: you used to think you wanted to share a life with someone. Now you don't. Why do you need a priest, rabbi, magisterium, or beit mishpat for that? I personally felt the same way when my first marriage ended. You know when it's over.

If the answer is, "well, if you want to be a good Catholic," or "well, if you want to be a good orthodox Jew," that just moves the "why would you want to do that" question elsewhere.

 

[The Brandon Five]

"And so I tell you, Peter: you are the rock and on this rock I must build my church, and not even death will be able to overcome it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven: what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven."
Matthew 16: 18-19

Is Peter the rock on which the Church is built? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

In Greek nouns have gender. It is similar to the English words actor and actress. The first is masculine and the second is feminine. Likewise, the Greek word "petros" is masculine; "petra" is feminine. Peter, the man, is appropriately referred to as Petros. But Jesus said that the rock he would build his church on was not the masculine "petros" but the feminine "petra." Let me illustrate by using the words "actor" and "actress:" "You are the actor and with this actress I will make my movie." Do see that the gender influences how a sentence is understood? Jesus was not saying that the church will be built upon Peter, but upon something else. What, then, does petra, the feminine noun, refer to?

The feminine "petra" occurs four times in the Greek New Testament:

Matt. 16:18, "And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."
Matt. 27:60, "and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away."
1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."
1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is "A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

 

[IcyPatriot]

All one needs to know about annulments is that the ease of getting one is directly proportional to your charitable contributions to said church. IMO ... you get married of your own free will ... if it doesn't work such is life. But to get it annulled as in it never existed makes no sense to me. I am sure my ignorance on the topic is showing ... but ... it is what it is and it's not what it's not and a marriage was unless you have enough money to make it that it was not.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

As far as your "ignorance on the topic," Icy, what's to "know," right?

If you want to subject yourself to the rules of a religious body, you can... if so, here's the rules on one of them declares your marriage never to have happened so your soul is squeaky clean. Groesse gedillah. In Judaism, "divorce court" goes by a process closer to the civil case - you're just getting a divorce, of course it happened, now you're dissolving it. Again, groesse gedillah... nobody's dividing up the property by some obscure biblical rule. That's what the civil courts do.

The more I think about it the more I think that the "authorities" should just handle the dissolution of a contract -- and that's a civic matter. You and your own spouse know whether "it happened," nobody else. You and your spouse know whether you're truly dissolving the emotional content of that union.

But of course, there are some who have group marriages with history, the community, God, whatever. In those cases, I guess you need to get God, community, history, or whatever off your back -- in other words, you've ceded power over your own freedom to someone outside the couple. So therefore, you have to get out of it, giving the outside authority power over you, and the ability to extract concessions from you.

::shrug:: whatever floats your boat, I reckon.

This is the sort of thing that drives me away from "community" however.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

this does not come across as the teachings of an individual.....but rather a group that wishes to oppress....

I personally believe that much has been embellished by others

It's not the teachings of an individual. It's God's word. If we love God, then we will trust him.
If God wanted to oppress us then he wouldn't have given us free will to reject him.