Idle thoughts - Thank god that's over.

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

If he didn't slip on that screen pass in the fourth quarter he probably would have scored. Having a player like that puts a lot of stress on a defense. I don't think you can overstate that.

Yeah - he's exciting - and I don't mean to be rainclouds on a sunny day about him. I'm just saying that, to my untrained eye, he looks like he needs perfect blocking to rip off a good run between the tackles.

Swing passes, wheel routes, screens where he can get moving and put some turf between him and the biggest, strongest defenders, then - look out.

 

[Buchanty]

I would have liked to see the WRs get more involved. However, considering the state of the Patriots WR depth, I suppose it is understandable that none of them got open.

I agree that WR depth is shallow, almost non-existent. Ebert looks like a candidate for the PS (if he clears waivers), but the others will be handing in their playbooks on Friday. I still can't believe how Holley stopped running on that last play, a hesitation on commitment that will be reflected by 31 other teams in the NFL when thinking of picking him up. I keep hoping once the dust settles on the released FA grabfest we can pick up Gaffney again (assuming it was an injury influenced release). If any of our 3 starters get injured we have little to replace them.

Last season when BB was very unhappy with the Pats offensive unit, he made them play in the 4th game for most of the first half. Evidently for some reason that is not apparent to the rest of us, he clearly didn't feel that way last night. Well if BB is satisfied with the progress to date (though I doubt that "satisfied" is the right word), who am I to disagree. Evidently he sees the pieces coming together even if we do not.

I like the thought, and you could be right. I still think he was concerned about the 3 games in 10 days and didn't want to risk playing starters twice in 4 days. I also think he is much more concerned with getting the pieces on the D to come together, and last night they appeared to do that as several of them, while not starters, will see plenty of playing time through the full season (Cunningham, Brace, Deaderick, Scott, Dowling, Wilson, Ebner all had solid games - 96 especially). I was hoping to see more of Carpenter and Bequette, but still feel they are on the right side of the bubble.

Going back to coach satisfaction, I had the sense that the least satisfied one on the field was Coughlin. He must have been exploding to see his 1st team O struggle to get anywhere against our 2nd D. 1 first down for Eli in 4 possessions. I only got the New York commentators (who were abysmal) but they couldn't find anything positive to say about their elite QB. They had suggested he would only play a couple of possessions, but Coughlin must have been sputtering on 3 pathetic attempts because Eli did not look happy being sent out a 4th time.

Last 3 minutes of each half is where the Giants made their stats look decent (O and D) - I think BB took his foot off the pedal, and even if he didn't some of the players did.

15. We all love how this defense is looking, but am I alone in feeling like the punch drunk fighter who has been hit with the left so often that I'm praying for the right. Have we been lulled into a false sense of accomplishment?

Yep - nice as it has looked over the pre-season it's still the pre-season, and we have no way of knowing how they will respond when the real games begin. I think we may have a better D but I dont think it will be significantly better (not Houston Texan level), though enough to reach the middle tier of Defensive stats, ie 16th on those stats we were in the 30's in 2011.

Strangely I am where I wanted to be heading into the season. Comfortable on individual skill sets, positive that the D will improve and the O wont regress, excited for the future but not with expectations through the roof. There are enough question marks to prevent SB predictions and sufficient confidence factors to suggest a winning record but even that is dependent on the injury gremlin. The game last night had much to please, though I would like to see Bill overcome Coughlin soon (they still think they have our number).

 

[patfanken]

A couple of things to clarify:

1. I think we vastly over think the WR depth issue. There are literally dozens of teams who would love to have our "problems" at WR. Think about it we have as good a 1 - 2 combination as there is in the league with Welker and Lloyd. Behind them we have a consummate reliable "old pro", and a promising slot receiver in waiting. Sure, its fair to cry "washed up and unproven" for both of them But that's not the point.

Like I've been trying to say for a while now, you cannot separate the TE's from the WR's. You have to look at what the Pats can put out there as RECEIVER threats at any one time. On virtually every play Brady will have FOUR elite quality receivers to choose from, plus a choice of 4 better than average receiving RB's. For 90% of the league that is at least 2 more than they are working with. Its not how many WR's Brady has, but rather receiving targets and where they can target across the field

Think about it. 80% of the time the Pats will line up in some kind of a 2TE - 2 WR - 1 BR alignment. As a former DC, let me tell you that is not an easy basic formation to defend, even before you think about the 101 different looks you create from formation and motion using that personnel; group. The wide outs spread you, while the 2 TE's present a real running threat to both sides.

Now add that you also pose FOUR separate threats to "elite" receivers, and you present a match up problem on every play if you have a QB who can find it. Really the only chance you have as a DC is to keep changing your match up weaknesses and hope the QB doesn't find while at the same time try not to give him the time to find it. And that's hard because with so many great targets, you will probably have more than one weakness.

So even if down the road injury takes some of those options away, 2 facts are clear. First their replacements won't be at the same level, but certainly serviceable. 2ndly, Brady will STILL have at least a couple of elite receivers to throw to. It will never be 2006-like. In other words plenty of receiver depth.

Branch Edelman and whomever are interesting discussion points for over zealous fans with too much time on their hands. And could very well become key players given some injuries. However at this point the "WR depth issue" is really much ado about nothing, because Brady is going to start this season with more than enough receiver targets.

2. I have nothing aginst Boldin as a RB. He's a pretty good prospect, but I've seen some guys from other teams who flashed more, who also probably will get cut as well. (take the Giants RB from the 2nd half - Brown IIRC). He's a good RB, but the league is filled with them. I want him on the team, but NOT on the 53 man roster. He belongs on the PS. Given the solid yet unspectacular nature of his TC, he will most likely get there

3. The choices between White, Tarpinian, Koudavidis, Scott, and Forston will be among the toughest. Bequette has shown just enough promise to get the 3rd round pass. Scott is likely to stay...at least until Carter can return....if he doe return.

4. Its anyone's guess who the last DB will be. If its common wisdom, then Stirling Moore will be the guy. We shall see.

 

[BananaRepublican]

The Giants put out their #1 offense for 4 or 5 series, while we were going with our 2nd team DL, our 3rd team LB's and refugee's from rugby teams, the University of Illinois , and the Lincoln Ne county jail made up the backfield, and pretty much stoned them.

Maybe we had entered the Pre Season Twilight Zone that cast its spell over Eli and Brees.

But maybe, just maybe, we were looking at a top ten defense.

 

[Gwedd]

Maybe we had entered the Pre Season Twilight Zone that cast its spell over Eli and Brees.

But maybe, just maybe, we were looking at a top ten defense.

I'd say you're on to something.

I know it's preseason, but those guys out there were playing VERY well. Seems to me that Coach lit a fire under them and explained how things are going to be this season.

 

[BananaRepublican]

I think we vastly over think the WR depth issue.

I feel a little uneasy with the lack of overall speed at WR, so it's natural to ponder a guy like Stallworth or even the waiver wire. If you don't feel comfortable then you don't feel comfortable and you need to think of ways to get the comfort level.

I consider Lloyd to be a football-speed man because of his uncanny moves. I consider him to be a guy that gets separation. If he gets hurt though, I don't think we have anybody who can threaten a defense like that. We're back to last year if Lloyd gets hurt. After all those guys trooping through Foxboro we are absolutely not covered if Lloyd gets hurt.

Unless Ebert or Slater can actually do something. This depth issue is a fact I believe. I'd love to hear evidence to the contrary. The best I can do is, "Keep Deion off the field as much as possible to save his legs for the emergency."

 

[Nunchucks]

I feel a little uneasy with the lack of overall speed at WR, so it's natural to ponder a guy like Stallworth or even the waiver wire. If you don't feel comfortable then you don't feel comfortable and you need to think of ways to get the comfort level.

I consider Lloyd to be a football-speed man because of his uncanny moves. I consider him to be a guy that gets separation. If he gets hurt though, I don't think we have anybody who can threaten a defense like that. We're back to last year if Lloyd gets hurt. After all those guys trooping through Foxboro we are absolutely not covered if Lloyd gets hurt.

Unless Ebert or Slater can actually do something. This depth issue is a fact I believe. I'd love to hear evidence to the contrary. The best I can do is, "Keep Deion off the field as much as possible to save his legs for the emergency."

The other problem is that the Patriots have nobody after Welker and Lloyd who can get off a jam.

 

[Marqui]

The other problem is that the Patriots have nobody after Welker and Lloyd who can get off a jam.

Even Welker isn't that great at it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Lloyd's thing isn't getting seperation, it's making plays on the ball absent much of it. That is why he and Brady are taking some time to get their chemistry worked out. He's not going to be throwing to a wide open Lloyd, he's going to be throwing to a Lloyd who can appear well covered and then beat it.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Ok, I'll do another one of these, even though I'm having trouble justifying the effort. I guess a lot of these kids who have worked their butts off over the last 6 weeks deserve a comment thread even if this will be "it" for them. They all played very hard, and some of them played very well.

1. Who were those guys on defense and where were they last season on that last drive.

The Giants put out their #1 offense for 4 or 5 series, while we were going with our 2nd team DL, our 3rd team LB's and refugee's from rugby teams, the University of Illinois , and the Lincoln Ne county jail made up the backfield, and pretty much stoned them. Hell Sergio freakin Brown got secondary snaps and didn't embarrass himself Quite frankly it was impressive

2. The 2nd DL was very solid the entire first half. But once again Ron Brace stood out against the Giants first OL. His play is going to be a huge boost for the Pats, not only adding quality depth for Wilfolk, but in various sub packages. Its like digging down into an old Christmas sock and finding a present you forgot to take out a few years ago.

3. The same can be said for Jermaine Cunningham. That first sack was an impressive piece of work by anyone's standards. Again made more exciting by the fact it was against the Giants first OL. But almost impressive as his consistent pass rush was his strong work against the run. I especially liked when he dropped down to DT in certain sub packages. He seemed very hard for them to control down there. I think its safe to say that Cunningham was better than we realized his rookie year, and allowed the lockout to derail his last season by being unprofessional. Something he wasn't this off season.

4. Trevor Scott did enough I think to keep his roster spot. Set the edge well and did enough rushing to stay ahead of the game....until at least Andre Carter is ready to come back.

5. Koutavidis and Tarpanian both played well enough to cost Tracy White his roster spot. Both are just as good on ST's and both are better LB's. Again it was pretty impressive against the Giant first O

6. It was Nate Ebner who blew the coverage on Victor Cruz on the TD pass that wasn't, not Stirling Moore. That being said, Ebner should be made to teach tackling to the rest of the team, he's THAT good. And the blown coverage granted, he around the ball enough of the time to make one ask the question, "if Ebner could only get 3 snaps at S during his career at Ohio State, why weren't we drafting their starters. Those guys had to be all world.

I've always liked him as a special teamer, but felt that he would have been served better on the PS for a year to "learn to play safety". Well I'm very late to the "Nate Ebner makes the final roster" parade. I can't be more impressed with how quickly he's progressed (and what a long way he has to go). Still hard to believe OSU staff couldn't get him on the field more.

7. Is there another rookie S outside of Marc Barron who looks better than Tavan Wilson. At this point he might not be a HR pick, but a good solid Double for starters. Always around the ball and like Ebner and Dowling, excellent tacklers

8. The OL - The closest thing we had to starters out there came in the first quarter of the game and it seems to me that the protection was better, a bit more in sync. It got ugly at times as it can when you give up 5 sacks, but when you look at who was out there, it really won't matter past Friday.

9. I just don't get Boldin. PS is fine with me, but unless Vareen is going to be out a few games, I'd rather have a FB or 4th TE. Demps impressed me in that he so willingly carried the ball right up the middle. You can tell that he's going to make a lot of teams very skittish when he's in the backfield down the road. (IBTW did he sign a 4 year rookie deal, or is he on a one year deal)

10. I will remind you that however bad you think Hoyer or Mallett is doing, Matt Cassell was much worse back in the preseason of 2008. IIRC, zero scores and about 5 1st downs. And that's all I have to say about 2 guys we will see no more of for the next 5 months.

11. Alex Silvestro is better than anyone has the right to expect of him and I hope his reward for taking one for the team this training game is a spot on the PS... and I will be very surprised if he doesn't get one.

12. Special teams - This has been a very unreported on area of the team, and as you can tell from high number I put it at, I'm not that much better. However I think we have improved our team in this area, by a lot. Good special teams players are going to be cut for better ones. I'm very happy that BB pays more attention of this area of the team's game than we fans do.

13 - General comments - On the surface we really should be concerned about the state of our offense off of this preseason. This was a team that averaged close to 30 ppg last season, and yet the first team offense hasn't topped 14 and needed to go into the 3rd quarter to manage that measly number. We all know that its "only" preseason, but its still disappointing nonetheless.

14. I will take one inference as very encouraging. Last season when BB was very unhappy with the Pats offensive unit, he made them play in the 4th game for most of the first half. Evidently for some reason that is not apparent to the rest of us, he clearly didn't feel that way last night. Well if BB is satisfied with the progress to date (though I doubt that "satisfied" is the right word), who am I to disagree. Evidently he sees the pieces coming together even if we do not.

15. We all love how this defense is looking, but am I alone in feeling like the punch drunk fighter who has been hit with the left so often that I'm praying for the right. Have we been lulled into a false sense of accomplishment? (not seen since the first TB preseason game) Are we being set up for another disappointment. Can we really turn this defense around so dramatically as Houston did last season?

I just don't know.....but so far so good.

Well good night. The next time its for REAL!!!!

One of the most un-noticed or at least un-remarked observation, is just how good a run blocker Marcus Cannon really is.

Has no one else noticed how often the RBs, especially the big guys Ridley and Bolton, have been sprung for big running gains around Right End?

Everyone has been IMHO overly quick to criticize Cannon for his lack of pass blocking, but why is not credit being given to his obviously superior Run Blocking? He seemingly constantly seals, and allows the RBs to easily turn the corner Some times with TE help, but it opens a lane reminescent of "the Lane" that the Lombardi Packers used to open with their power sweep pulling Guards.

To me that is also an indication that his real future is at RG, the power running position. It may not be this year as he is needed at RT, but he will eventually be a prime contender for Brian Waters position, after BW hangs it up for good next season, and we acquire a good swing tackle, next draft.

 

[patriot lifer]

I feel a little uneasy with the lack of overall speed at WR, so it's natural to ponder a guy like Stallworth or even the waiver wire. If you don't feel comfortable then you don't feel comfortable and you need to think of ways to get the comfort level.

I consider Lloyd to be a football-speed man because of his uncanny moves. I consider him to be a guy that gets separation. If he gets hurt though, I don't think we have anybody who can threaten a defense like that. We're back to last year if Lloyd gets hurt. After all those guys trooping through Foxboro we are absolutely not covered if Lloyd gets hurt.

Unless Ebert or Slater can actually do something. This depth issue is a fact I believe. I'd love to hear evidence to the contrary. The best I can do is, "Keep Deion off the field as much as possible to save his legs for the emergency."

It sounds like you have two concerns:

1. Lack of depth at WR

2. Lack of speed and quality at WR

As for #1, I agree with you there, but am less concerned just because this offense looks geared towards de-emphasizing that position. Not a terrible thing. BB said it back in...'09?...that he expected offenses to get bigger to counter lighter D's of the league. For example, I never would have pictured Rex Ryan drafting wee little Coples. He always liked the real chunky fellas. So I think that since defenses are trying to guard more against the '07 style Pats-type teams (Colts w/ Colts-type, '09 Saints-type), the Pats are smartly equipping their team to pick you apart with shorter, quicker developing routes and running game, which will diminish the effectiveness of these faster D's. TE's are a wonderful thing, and two slot receivers to boot. After that, WR becomes less used (but don't tell Lloyd, shhhh).


As for lack of speed, I hear you there. It'd be nice for Brady to have wide open players to pass to all the time. But I'll say this, if you want a fast WR, you've got two options. 1. There is a guy like Stallworth who is cheaper. But the problem is that he doesn't run the best routes and doesn't have soft hands. Those two points are the fundamentals of ANY WR--speed is a bonus. 2. There are your Calvin Johnson's and Vincent Jackson's who can do it all. But they're a tad expensive and you can kiss those contracts with our TE's goodbye. And finding these guys in the draft is very, very difficult.

So in the end, I'd go for the more reliable players like Branch, Lloyd, and Gaffney, which is what they will have done (minus Gaffney).

 

[JJDChE]

The big story for me is the quality/depth in the front 7. Cunningham and Brace have showed up big time. Tarpinian looked damn impressive, too.

I'm still not sold on Ebner. Looks like he is still thinking out there. I think he'll get there, but i don't want him on the field when it matters at this point.

 

[PP2]

I'm still not sold on Ebner. Looks like he is still thinking out there. I think he'll get there, but i don't want him on the field when it matters at this point.

9 tackles, 3 PD, 1 INT. Leading the team in the first 2, tied with three for the INT. Preseason stats are worthless for the most part, but it does show a consistency, a carryover from what we saw during practices.

All this from a guy that played exactly 3 snaps last season at OU who is already showing a Reed-like ability to think like a quarterback. The one bad play I saw from him, was that bad bite on a PA and allowing Cruz to sail by him. Other than that, he's been generally solid and BB has been all over him which we know from history means BB has invested in the guy.

Au contraire, I would like to see more of this Leonidas.

 

[SacPete1]

Great summary Ken.
One area that has really not netted the results so far has been the screen game on offense. I know McDaniels likes this and it really should be effective but the timing was off for the most part and I hope this isn't forced in the regular season the way it appeared to be in the preseason. Really more disappointed that given the number of attempts, there wasn't noticeable improvement.

 

[JJDChE]

9 tackles, 3 PD, 1 INT. Leading the team in the first 2, tied with three for the INT. Preseason stats are worthless for the most part, but it does show a consistency, a carryover from what we saw during practices.

All this from a guy that played exactly 3 snaps last season at OU who is already showing a Reed-like ability to think like a quarterback. The one bad play I saw from him, was that bad bite on a PA and allowing Cruz to sail by him. Other than that, he's been generally solid and BB has been all over him which we know from history means BB has invested in the guy.

Au contraire, I would like to see more of this Leonidas.

The guy has talent, don't get me wrong, but Reed-like ability to read the QB? You've got to be joking. I think his reads are the worst part of his game right now. Comparing him to a guy who has some of the best instincts of any player in the last few decades is just nuts. His run/pass read is where I'm seeing the most trouble right now. He needs to read run quicker IMO. I think he has pretty good instincts when the ball is in the air, but that's only a small piece of the puzzle.

If we put him out there right now I think he'd get exposed. Maybe not Sergio Brown exposed, but I think he'd struggle to be consistent. I wouldn't be against putting him out to spell the startes for a few plays here and there, but more than ~10 snaps a game is too much for him at this point. Could be a totally different story by the end of the season, but it's too soon to give him big reps.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

just to clarify, cunningham's sack on eli wasn't against one of their starters- chris snee wasn't playing

 

[patfanken]

The guy has talent, don't get me wrong, but Reed-like ability to read the QB? You've got to be joking. I think his reads are the worst part of his game right now. Comparing him to a guy who has some of the best instincts of any player in the last few decades is just nuts. His run/pass read is where I'm seeing the most trouble right now. He needs to read run quicker IMO. I think he has pretty good instincts when the ball is in the air, but that's only a small piece of the puzzle.

If we put him out there right now I think he'd get exposed. Maybe not Sergio Brown exposed, but I think he'd struggle to be consistent. I wouldn't be against putting him out to spell the startes for a few plays here and there, but more than ~10 snaps a game is too much for him at this point. Could be a totally different story by the end of the season, but it's too soon to give him big reps.

I think you have to separate the terms "instincts" and "reads". His utter lack of experience through college, let alone the NFL, will make Ebner very susceptible to the kind of mistakes that we saw in the Cruz play vs the Giants. HOWEVER, the kid clearly has superior instincts, otherwise he wouldn't be around the ball as often as it seems.

Its his instinct that make him such an exciting and surprising prospect. Hard to to teach that. And again, pretty shocking that the OSU staff failed to recognize them. Ebner is the anti-Merriweather. This is a kid who is NOT geometrically challenged. He will take the right angle. He will make the tough tackle, and he will constantly show up around the ball.

What he lacks in over abundance are REPS....thousands of them. He needs to see and recognize what's in front of him over and over and over again. It looks like he'll get the opportunity to do it on the 53 man roster rather than the PS as I had thought. More credit to him and his great instincts.

You are right to this extent. Reality should shape everyone's expectations of Nate Ebner. You couldn't have a kid coming into the league with less on field experience. On the other hand, if you have a little patience and you like what you have seen from Steve Gregory, Nate Ebner in on a career path to be a slightly bigger and faster version of him is just a year or two.

 

[PP2]

The guy has talent, don't get me wrong, but Reed-like ability to read the QB? You've got to be joking. I think his reads are the worst part of his game right now. Comparing him to a guy who has some of the best instincts of any player in the last few decades is just nuts. His run/pass read is where I'm seeing the most trouble right now. He needs to read run quicker IMO. I think he has pretty good instincts when the ball is in the air, but that's only a small piece of the puzzle.

If we put him out there right now I think he'd get exposed. Maybe not Sergio Brown exposed, but I think he'd struggle to be consistent. I wouldn't be against putting him out to spell the startes for a few plays here and there, but more than ~10 snaps a game is too much for him at this point. Could be a totally different story by the end of the season, but it's too soon to give him big reps.

Did I mention "read"? No. Why would I mention that and then describe him biting bad on a PA? Reading is something that's learned, but thinking like a QB is a talent that's not taught.

The fact is that when you have 3 PD's and an INT in preseason, along with picking off Brady a few times during training camp, as well as tipping some of his passes, does suggest that you are in the right place at the right time and I believe that is a byproduct of thinking like a quarterback as far as feeling coverages and getting a sense of how the play is going to unfold before it actually does.