Mallett vs Hoyer - No Clear Winner Monday Night

[woolster22]

I may get blown up for this, but is being like Bledsoe bad? There will only ever be one TB and getting a player like Bledsoe as his heir apparent isn't bad. Bledsoe put up ridiculous numbers and led the Pats to the SB. He was a good QB on teams that became bad because of Bobby Greer's horrendous drafting. Bledsoe was replaced by Brady arguably the GOAT, but Bledsoe was no slouch.

I was a fan of Drew's and he was the ultimate professional in how he handled the Brady situation and his subsequent trade to the Bills.

If we replace the GOAT with a player whose ceiling is Bledsoe, I would be happy.

Just for the sake of argument blind who is the better QB? Obviously one is Drew.

Games Att. Comp. Comp % yards TD INT W/L
194 3839 6717 57.2 44611 251 206 98-95-0
165 2898 4715 61.5 32942 165 141 94-71-0

Where is the stat for sacks while sitting in the pocket like it's your d@mn lazy boy? I loved drew too, but he was one immobile SOB, and once Coates was done he had no security blanket (although watching him chucking up bombs to Glenn was pretty sweet). He could throw darts all day, but would sit down for eternity waiting for something to open up downfield.

Mallet has the same plus arm, seems a hair more mobile, but has the same reliance of "i'm just going to zip it in there," instead of throwing it away/taking the sack. He is young, so maybe that can be fixed...

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[Ian]

I never said Bledsoe was a bad quarterback, just that Mallett's decision making skills remind me of Drew's. I think we could all safely say that this is one area where Brady just absolutely blows Drew away.

I thought exactly the same thing. He's just slow when it comes to getting rid of the ball. There's no 3 steps and boom, it's out. There's always another second or two and I noticed that he also likes to look down who he's throwing to. You could see it, especially on the interception that luckily was called back. He's a little more fleet of foot than Drew was, but if you watch Brady you see his eyes move from one guy, to the next, and as soon as he spots that his guy is open, the ball is out. That's such a rare trait, and it explains why he's as good as he is and why it's going to be tough to eventually replace him.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I agree with no clear winners because the extreme collapse of the pocket seemed to rattle Hoyer more than we'd seen in the past. Brady does not look good in those situations either.

The only receivers out there worth throwing to were Branch and Edelman which makes evaluation problematical.

Mallett looked batter than last year as he well should. Still question his decision making. Withstood the abyssmal pass protection as well as possible.

There is no substantive evidence as yet that Mallett is capable of stepping in Cassell style should TFB be out. Forget trading Hoyer.

 

[Wretch]

Not in Belichick's system, and if you don't grasp that after a decade I don't know what else to say. And not for nothing but Drew was off of two teams and out of the league before he was Brady's age for a reason. Repeated mental mistakes, poor decision making. Inability to process information quickly and consistently and move within the pocket. Inability to adapt situationally. The killer turnover. In the end what some characterized as flat out insubordination. That completion % and TD to INT ratio that just won't fly in this system. Neither will attitude or entitlement. Bill exposed Drew for who and what he was before he coached him here. But he couldn't save him from himself because he didn't have the requisite skillset or mindset to be salvagable. He was going sooner than later whether Brady replaced him or not. Much like Kosar...

Drew was a very good, not great QB who was replaced at 2 stops, once by the GOAT in TB and at the end of his career by a pro bowl level QB in Romo. The Bills were a bad organization with no talent. Everyone forgets that Drew put up some great numbers with the Bills at first then the organizational incompetence took over.

Drew was never entitled. If he was Parcells would have never taken him to Dallas and he wouldn't be one of Kraft's favorite Patriots. He handled the transition to TB with undeniable professionalism.

As for insubordination, it is a fine line between having a backbone, something good in a QB, and being insubordinate. We don't know what transpired behind closed doors but Drew was never publicly critical of BB or the Pats while he was with the Pats.

Did he make mistakes? Yes. Was he slow of foot? Yes, that doesn't mean he wasn't a good QB. He just wasn't TB. Was DB what BB wanted in a QB? No, but Favre wouldn't be either, that doesn't mean Favre wasn't a great QB in his prime.

As for the TD/Int ratio and the passing stats. With today's passing rules DB would have probably had over 50k passing yards and a lot more TDs.

Drew Bledsoe will always be compared to TB and that isn't fair to Drew. He was a good QB who had some great years but he wasn't TB

For his career Pro Football Reference list the following players as having similar careers:
Drew Bledsoe NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Terry Bradshaw*, Len Dawson*, Bob Griese*, Roman Gabriel, Jim Kelly*, Phil Simms, John Hadl, Mark Brunell, Steve McNair, Ken Stabler

The star indicates HoF. Not bad company. I am not claiming DB is a HoFer but he was a better player than he is generally given credit for.

FYI the second stat line in my OP was Aikman, who was surrounded by HoF talent, unlike DB.

Who do you think this is?
181 86-84-1 3297 5604 58.8 43040 254 242

 

[IllegalContact]

I agree with no clear winners because the extreme collapse of the pocket seemed to rattle Hoyer more than we'd seen in the past. Brady does not look good in those situations either.

The only receivers out there worth throwing to were Branch and Edelman which makes evaluation problematical.

Mallett looked batter than last year as he well should. Still question his decision making. Withstood the abyssmal pass protection as well as possible.

There is no substantive evidence as yet that Mallett is capable of stepping in Cassell style should TFB be out. Forget trading Hoyer.

its a tough pickle between a guy who has made some bad decisions versus a guy who simply can't make all the throws.......the decison making can be fixed.....a weak arm cannot

 

[DW Toys]

Where is the stat for sacks while sitting in the pocket like it's your d@mn lazy boy? I loved drew too, but he was one immobile SOB, and once Coates was done he had no security blanket (although watching him chucking up bombs to Glenn was pretty sweet). He could throw darts all day, but would sit down for eternity waiting for something to open up downfield.

Mallet has the same plus arm, seems a hair more mobile, but has the same reliance of "i'm just going to zip it in there," instead of throwing it away/taking the sack. He is young, so maybe that can be fixed...

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Cousins, Keep this in mind. Brady still gets the majority of reps in practice with the first teamers. If you look at what Mallet did against a first string Eagles Defense it was very respectable.

This was a "trust test" for me. As I watched and saw the game unfold, I as an interested football fan felt more comfortable with Mallet at the helm. I felt like he could make a play. I did not feel that with Hoyer. His passes looked weak. His "game clock" in the head is not as good as Mallet. Mallet is more prone to mistakes and has a more than slight accuracy issue but this is Camp #1 for him and 2012 actually should be his Rookie year.

Better line play improves both QB's. Toward the second half Folkes got better protection (third stringers). He got into a rhythm. Neither Mallet nor Hoyer ever got there. Solder and Cannon need more reps. Experience is what made Light a great NFL player....not the best OT ever, but upper echelon. These two kids are just that.....kids. This is actually camp #1 for them. It's reps and hard work. I thought Solder did...o.k. and better than game one....But in fact if you see what the Eagles DL are saying about Cannon and Solder, they actually had more positives about Cannon. The first string Eagles line did not glow against mostly the Pats second string Defense in the beginning either. Ask Vick. Another thought on Solder is that he is switching from RT to LT and his foot work is opposite. It takes time.

A better day running the ball would help. The YPC averages sucked, but for every 8 yard gain someone would blow an OL assignment and they would lose 5 yards. I think they had like six runs for losses.

In spite some other posters, I think that Mallet is the future. When Brady is winding done he will be what?...27? How old is Weedon this year? He is smart enough. His Wunderlick was as good or bettter than some of the best NFL QB's. He needs more years and Reps. Tough to say if he will even be a mild Bledsoe version but I have more faith in him to win a game and Hoyer more to just manage one.
DW Toys

 

[PatsFan2]

I don't see a lot of interest in Hoyer on the trade market...I think we overrate him simply because he is a Patriot. He will likely sign with another team as a UFA and have to battle the incumbant for the #1 spot. He is JAG when it comes to back up QBs.

Mallet is a work in progress who looked decent considering many of the guys he played with will be taking your deli order in a couple of weeks. He has huge upside as others have pointed out. Time will tell.

Michael Bishop looked better than both Mallett and Hoyer! Lets hope we never have to get to one of those guys.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

In Hoyer, I see a QB that lacks the physical tools to lead a first team offense against a first team defense with any promising level of success. One of his problems last night was that the Eagles defense played him like he can't make the throws that need to be made. they can't attack Mallett the same way because they know he can. Hoyer does not get that ball to Silvestro......end of story

patsfans.com doesn't know the ultimate answer because it isn't really "knowable".

Mo has his opinion

You have your opinion.

Both are speculative.

Interest in your opinion is really not that high.

 

[Ian]

its a tough pickle between a guy who has made some bad decisions versus a guy who simply can't make all the throws.......the decision making can be fixed.....a weak arm cannot

I don't know about that - but I'm speaking in general considering all the bad QB's that have come and gone in this game. Chad Pennington is the first one who comes to mind, because at the tail end he had a weak arm but was at least smart enough with his decision making to not make a bad throw.

In theory the guys that have the mental capacity to read defenses and go through progressions are the ones you want, even if they have a weak arm. Don't forget, they - in theory - can at least get into a workout regime and strengthen it. Brady's actually a good example of that.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Cousins, Keep this in mind. Brady still gets the majority of reps in practice with the first teamers. If you look at what Mallet did against a first string Eagles Defense it was very respectable.

This was a "trust test" for me. As I watched and saw the game unfold, I as an interested football fan felt more comfortable with Mallet at the helm. I felt like he could make a play. I did not feel that with Hoyer. His passes looked weak. His "game clock" in the head is not as good as Mallet. Mallet is more prone to mistakes and has a more than slight accuracy issue but this is Camp #1 for him and 2012 actually should be his Rookie year.

Better line play improves both QB's. Toward the second half Folkes got better protection (third stringers). He got into a rhythm. Neither Mallet nor Hoyer ever got there. Solder and Cannon need more reps. Experience is what made Light a great NFL player....not the best OT ever, but upper echelon. These two kids are just that.....kids. This is actually camp #1 for them. It's reps and hard work. I thought Solder did...o.k. and better than game one....But in fact if you see what the Eagles DL are saying about Cannon and Solder, they actually had more positives about Cannon. The first string Eagles line did not glow against mostly the Pats second string Defense in the beginning either. Ask Vick. Another thought on Solder is that he is switching from RT to LT and his foot work is opposite. It takes time.

A better day running the ball would help. The YPC averages sucked, but for every 8 yard gain someone would blow an OL assignment and they would lose 5 yards. I think they had like six runs for losses.

In spite some other posters, I think that Mallet is the future. When Brady is winding done he will be what?...27? How old is Weedon this year? He is smart enough. His Wunderlick was as good or bettter than some of the best NFL QB's. He needs more years and Reps. Tough to say if he will even be a mild Bledsoe version but I have more faith in him to win a game and Hoyer more to just manage one.
DW Toys

This is actually an oustanding, well thought out post.:rocker:

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Drew was a very good, not great QB who was replaced at 2 stops, once by the GOAT in TB and at the end of his career by a pro bowl level QB in Romo. The Bills were a bad organization with no talent. Everyone forgets that Drew put up some great numbers with the Bills at first then the organizational incompetence took over.

The GOAT was at the time a second year 6th round QB with 1 passing attempt to his credit in the regular season. And Romo was the great unknown UDFA Parcell's didn't have any use for and was desperate not to hang his job on. Drew was motivated for the first time in his life to prove BB made a mistake. That motivation carried him through half a season.

Drew was never entitled. If he was Parcells would have never taken him to Dallas and he wouldn't be one of Kraft's favorite Patriots. He handled the transition to TB with undeniable professionalism.

Drew was entitled. Parcell's believed he had finally matured to the point he wouldn't be. He was wrong. And behind the scenes Drew was a petulant force that fortunately Brady was wired to handle and Belichick was wired to ignore and a blue collar team was determined to follow the leaders and not the disgruntled pouter.

As for insubordination, it is a fine line between having a backbone, something good in a QB, and being insubordinate. We don't know what transpired behind closed doors but Drew was never publicly critical of BB or the Pats while he was with the Pats.

The insubordination surfaced at Buffalo and in Dallas.

Did he make mistakes? Yes. Was he slow of foot? Yes,t hat doesn't mean he wasn't a good QB. He just wasn't TB. Was DB what BB wanted in a QB? No, but Favre wouldn't be either, that doesn't mean Favre wasn't a great QB in his prime.

If you're looking for sandlot gunslingers, maybe. That doesn't fly in today's NFL. Especially if your goal is to win championships.

As for the TD/Int ratio and the passing stats. With today's passing rules DB would have probably had over 50k passing yards and a lot more TD's.

More empty yards and at least as many more INT's as TD's because they were generally related not to bad throws but bad decisions.

Drew Bledsoe will always be compared to TB and that isn't fair to Drew. He was a good QB who had some great years but he wasn't TB

Fine, but he also was never going to be a fit in this offense and struggled to find one he could still fit and apparently unlike some of his die hard fans finally saw the writing on the wall. Drew loved to play the game...on his terms. Like Favre, he was never a student of the game and in today's NFL that's the kiss of death. Being tall and/or having a laser rocket arm doesn't get you much these days unless you can read complicated defenses and process information at warp speed and make consistently good decisions and accurate throws from the pocket.

For his career Pro Football Reference list the following players as having similar careers:
Drew Bledsoe NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Terry Bradshaw*, Len Dawson*, Bob Griese*, Roman Gabriel, Jim Kelly*, Phil Simms, John Hadl, Mark Brunell, Steve McNair, Ken Stabler

The star indicates HoF. Not bad company. I am not claiming the DB is a HoFer but he was a better player than he is generally given credit for.

Most of which is from a byegone era. And thank god for small blessings... Drew gets plenty of credit, often more than he deserves, but his most ardent supporters can't tolerate any criticism no matter how valid.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

I thought exactly the same thing. He's just slow when it comes to getting rid of the ball. There's no 3 steps and boom, it's out. There's always another second or two and I noticed that he also likes to look down who he's throwing to. You could see it, especially on the interception that luckily was called back. He's a little more fleet of foot than Drew was, but if you watch Brady you see his eyes move from one guy, to the next, and as soon as he spots that his guy is open, the ball is out. That's such a rare trait, and it explains why he's as good as he is and why it's going to be tough to eventually replace him.

Is this comparison 2001 Brady vs 2012 Mallett?

 

[Deus Irae]

Last night's game reminded me a lot of the 2008 exhibition season, with the final outcome being a bit different from what I was taking out of those games. Hoyer didn't hold his poise as well as Cassel did, and Mallett came off just a little bit better than his 2008 equivalents.

I didn't think there was a clear winner. It was only one exhibition game, and things could change in a matter of days, but I didn't see anything to make me think that Hoyer's ready to be a QB1. I didn't see anything to make me think that Mallett's ready to be a QB2. IMO, the night finished as it began, in that sense: status quo.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

its a tough pickle between a guy who has made some bad decisions versus a guy who simply can't make all the throws.......the decison making can be fixed.....a weak arm cannot

Oddly that was what the Bledsoe Brady debaters contended back in 2001-2002. And Hoyer isn't Pennington, who durability aside might have had a lot more success here than where he landed back in 2000. Arm strength is over rated. Accuracy, mental acuity and speed, consistent good decision making, poise, command... So much more goes into it at this level, let alone in this organization and system.

Decision making is at least as difficult if not moreso to alter than arm strength which Brady compensates for largely with precision mechanics. They can all make all the throws with sufficiency or they never get to this level. It's kind of like speed with WR. You can't coach it, but sometimes it matters naught because you can't always COACH it or it can't master the nuances of a playbook or run precise routes or read and react to coverage, etc.

 

[Deus Irae]

its a tough pickle between a guy who has made some bad decisions versus a guy who simply can't make all the throws.......the decison making can be fixed.....a weak arm cannot

I'd take Chad Pennington over JaMarcus Russell every day, thanks.

 

[UK_Pat37]

I'd take Chad Pennington over JaMarcus Russell every day, thanks.

Depending on what style of offence you aim to play, an average strength arm isn't always a terrible thing. West coast offences rely heavily on quick decision making and well placed throws on intermediate routes, building up for the slightly deeper ball...and we have seen Hoyer bomb it deep...look back to the closing game against the Dolphins a couple of years ago when he faked the end around and bombed it deep to Tate. I think Hoyer could be very well suited in a West Coast scheme.

As for Mallett, his decision making isn't always the best and maybe it never will be his best trait. But he will be able to make all the professional throws with that arm of his and his accuracy isn't terrible either. A more spread and vertical scheme suits him.

I think we went to a very West Coast kind of style in recent years which is why Hoyer has excelled with his. We have relied a lot on short and intermediate throws ourselves. If we move a little more vertically again under McDaniels, Hoyer won't be as much use to us. That much is probably true.

 

[Wretch]

Most of which is from a byegone era. And thank god for small blessings... Drew gets plenty of credit, often more than he deserves, but his most ardent supporters can't tolerate any criticism no matter how valid.

We have taken this OT if you want to continue the discussion we should take to PM or maybe we should necro and older thread and continue it there.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...edsoe-enter-pats-hall-fame-weekend-page2.html

 

[Ian]

Is this comparison 2001 Brady vs 2012 Mallett?

I guess you could make that comparison. Brady in 2001 was much quicker and more decisive than the 2012 Mallett (and better accuracy), even though Mallett has a stronger arm than Brady did at that point in his career. I remember thinking that he definitely looked better than Bledsoe and I was worried that it could be a problem if Drew struggled midseason (and I was a HUGE Bledsoe fan). Who would have expected things to happen to Drew the way they did...it's just one of those things and obviously changed everything.

But for the sake of keeping this on point, again when you're considering who will eventually replace Brady, I don't know yet if Mallett can be that guy. Don't get me wrong, he had his moments, but I still think he has a long way to go. With Brady I had a feeling, with Mallett I just don't know.

 

[PatsDeb]

For what it's worth (not much) I thought Mallett was better than Hoyer, although he had accuracy issues early on.

 

[goheels22002]

I want to see somebody turn the keys and start up the Lexus.

You know what I mean - the starting OL including Connolly, Solder, Waters, Mankins and Vollmer, the starting receiver group, and driver's choice of running backs.

Comparing Mallett and Hoyer last night with 26 guys not playing was like trying to figure out which one would be a better quarterback at the running of the bulls in Pamplona. It was chaotic.

The pre-season, especially with a screwball schedule like this, sucks.