OT: Goodell caught in a fib?

[livinginthe past]

Couldn't find a recent relevant thread to the whole ridiculous 'Bountygate' nonsense so i'm posting this here.

Judge Helen G. Berrigan issued an order today in the bounty cases. Though it contained no ruling, it hinted at a decision she may be thinking about making, specifically as to Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma’s defamation claim against Commissioner Roger Goodell.

“The Court is aware that Goodell stated, during the March 21, 2012 interview with the NFL Network and ESPN, that he would have disciplined the players at the same time as the coaches but for the NFLPA’s indication that they ‘wanted some time to investigate [the allegations] and talk to its own players,’” Judge Berrigan writes in the order, a copy of which was obtained by PFT. “The Court is asking for the specific date on which this request occurred. If the date is already in the record, the parties may simply cite to the relevant document in the record; if it is not, then the parties shall submit the relevant evidence.”

Judge Berrigan apparently is trying to confirm — or debunk — the NFL’s claim that the decision to suspend the players already had been made at the time the league imposed discipline on the non-players. If the NFL hadn’t made the decision to suspend the players on or before March 21, then the statements made on March 21 by Goodell regarding Vilma could be viewed as unnecessary to the disciplinary process and thus not within the confines of Goodell’s job duties and, most importantly, completely beyond the scope of the labor agreement’s arbitration procedures.

Judge in bounty case scrutinizes key factual claim made by NFL | ProFootballTalk

Long story short, it appears as if Roger Goodell has been caught in a lie with regard to the player suspensions, more specifically whether he already determined the level of player discipline by the time the non-players were being suspended.

I don't think i'm alone in being worried about the direction this a-hole is taking the league with his two-faced double speak on player safety - "less practice, more games!!!".

From the offset this felt like another 'Spygate' re-run where Roger was willing to take advantage of the media's love of scandal, and your average fans love of piling on a proven winning franchise.

Where are the facts?

All i've ever heard are suppositions and half-baked claims about who said what into a microphone.

I'm hoping this spells the end of the era of Goodell as Commisioner.

 

[ausbacker]

That's not what I inferred from the article but you're welcome to your interpretation.

 

[Tunescribe]

I'm no Goodell backer, but "Bountygate" is far from ridiculous, as you suggest. If anything, the punishments were moderate.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

This is clearly a case of a judge with a bias (NO educated and based) who desperately wants to find for the plaintiff because she doesn't like the way the NFL conducts it's business under the umbrella of a collectively bargained agreement, grasping at straws by her own repeated admission to find a way to rule against the league. Further wasting everyone's time because if an appeal is necessary the trio of judges in Atlanta will overturn her based on it's not about what she'd desperately like to do based on some personal concept of what constitutes fairness, it's about what the law states and the deference given to CBA's all parties to them agreed to.

All of you who like Florio are jonesing for some sort of repudiation of the commissioner are really asking for a league with no discipline where any time a player is they just run to their local court make a mockery out of the concept of consequence. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Here is an unbiased overview of what is going on from Gabe Feldman, something Florio can't manage because he has an agenda which is basically playing the provocateur. Conflict generates the kind of ratings that allowed him to grow a hobby rumor site into a more lucrative career than chasing ambulances.

And for those of you dreaming of the day Goodell gets ass canned over any of this, dream on. That's not what player victory will net you in the short or long term. It will just make things worse for the game and result in more courtroom coverage than gameday coverage going forward. And most of all it won't vindicate those of you still mired in 2007.

Who Dat in Court: The Jonathan Vilma Case Explained - The Triangle Blog - Grantland

 

[patfanken]

This is clearly a case of a judge with a bias (NO educated and based) who desperately wants to find for the plaintiff because she doesn't like the way the NFL conducts it's business under the umbrella of a collectively bargained agreement, grasping at straws by her own repeated admission to find a way to rule against the league. Further wasting everyone's time because if an appeal is necessary the trio of judges in Atlanta will overturn her based on it's not about what she'd desperately like to do based on some personal concept of what constitutes fairness, it's about what the law states and the deference given to CBA's all parties to them agreed to.

All of you who like Florio are jonesing for some sort of repudiation of the commissioner are really asking for a league with no discipline where any time a player is they just run to their local court make a mockery out of the concept of consequence. Be careful what you wish for.

This is right on the money. I'm no great Goodell fan either, but this is starting to get ridiculous.

The bias toward the Saints shown by this judge is so obvious that an appeal victory is assured regardless of how she rules. Once again the system drags out a case endlessly, and the only ones who win are the lawyers who are billing thousands per day, and needlessly tying up a court in a system desperately backlogged.

Florio's legal background is showing. I assume his interest in this is based on thinking about what he'd do if he were Vilma's lawyer. I think the key issue here is whether the league needs to show to a legal certainty that Vilma committed the acts he's being punished for. Which is ludicrous because the courts shouldn't have any jurisdiction here.

A win by Vilma here would set a precident that essentially would allow your kids could take you court and force you to conclusively prove that you caught them with their hands in the cookie jar.

There IS no issue here. (with all due respect to Pherian) The Saints were found guilty of having a bounty system YEARS ago. The only reason ANYone got punished was because after being told to stop, they continued to operate it. It wasn't like the league was out to get the Saints, far from it. They bent over backwards to avoid the scandal. They only acted when the evidence became so great and persistent that not to do something would have been just as injurious.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Couldn't find a recent relevant thread to the whole ridiculous 'Bountygate' nonsense so i'm posting this here.





Judge in bounty case scrutinizes key factual claim made by NFL | ProFootballTalk

Long story short, it appears as if Roger Goodell has been caught in a lie with regard to the player suspensions, more specifically whether he already determined the level of player discipline by the time the non-players were being suspended.

I don't think i'm alone in being worried about the direction this a-hole is taking the league with his two-faced double speak on player safety - "less practice, more games!!!".

From the offset this felt like another 'Spygate' re-run where Roger was willing to take advantage of the media's love of scandal, and your average fans love of piling on a proven winning franchise.

Where are the facts?

All i've ever heard are suppositions and half-baked claims about who said what into a microphone.

I'm hoping this spells the end of the era of Goodell as Commisioner.

Where are the facts? You clearly never even read the press release when it was there for all to read

He could have come down far heavier than he did do. The NCAA would have dealt the death penalty for something like this in college.

Not only was it perfectly clear what they were doing, but it was also perfectly clear they covered this up despite warnings and contact from the league to stop without any further action being taken. They failed to investigate from the top, carried on, and made their own bed...so LAY in it.

 

[Rusty Coupe]

This is clearly a case of a judge with a bias (NO educated and based) who desperately wants to find for the plaintiff because she doesn't like the way the NFL conducts it's business under the umbrella of a collectively bargained agreement, grasping at straws by her own repeated admission to find a way to rule against the league. Further wasting everyone's time because if an appeal is necessary the trio of judges in Atlanta will overturn her based on it's not about what she'd desperately like to do based on some personal concept of what constitutes fairness, it's about what the law states and the deference given to CBA's all parties to them agreed to.

All of you who like Florio are jonesing for some sort of repudiation of the commissioner are really asking for a league with no discipline where any time a player is they just run to their local court make a mockery out of the concept of consequence. Be careful what you wish for.

The NFL has known for decades that players suffered from long term effects from hits to the head, exhibit A being HOF Mike Webster. Then a few years ago high profile players got behind Daryl Johnston and brought it to the public's attention. Right around the same time, a method was developed for measuring a player's baseline brainwave activity, which changes when a player has a concussion.

It was at this point that Godell began to issue arbitrary fines to players, using no methodology or standard to what kind of hit would constitute a fine or for how much. Yes, one can look at the hit Merriweather put on the Vikings TE and clearly see he was headhunting, that however was one of the few clearcut cases, most others are not.

What Godell's office has done is set up an arbitrary board, with unlimited power, and says look the league is doing something about safety. Yet, the only people being held responsible are the players. The league and the owners are kept out of the equation, until now the Saints, who Goodell has some issues with their coach.

You are entitled to you're opinion, some may agree or disagree, but don't lump people together with a broad brush and try to belittle others who you disagree with.

 

[patfanken]

The NFL has known for decades that players suffered from long term effects from hits to the head, exhibit A being HOF Mike Webster. Then a few years ago high profile players got behind Daryl Johnston and brought it to the public's attention. Right around the same time, a method was developed for measuring a player's baseline brainwave activity, which changes when a player has a concussion.

What are you saying? Are you contending that its was like a state secret that no one knew that there are long term effects from severe and continued head trauma? Get real. This wasn't a conspiracy by the NFL. There are physical risks to many jobs, and people take those jobs and the more risk involved the higher the pay. NFL players have always been paid well (relatively of course), for play a game that had obvious health risks. It was a choice they made, and it should be a choice they should live with.

That being said, I have always supported the league and its "union" to give back more to those who built the game to the level where it is now. If a player was misused by his team, or wasn't give sound medical advice, he should absolutely seek compensation. However you make it seem like suddenly it was uncovered and no one could suspect that long term hits to the head might be harmful.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Goodell also instituted a policy in 2011 for penalizing teams whose players repeatedly are cited and fined for illegal hits. The player discipline hasn't been arbitrary, they have been developing and refining standards for a couple of seasons now. And Roger only took over in 2006. Like me he probably always figured there was a correlation, only the science to back up what my eyes told me lagged until fairly recently. As did the concept of changing the culture of football. Just ask Bill. He grew up in it. Knocking Goodell for trying to change it now is akin to killing the messenger.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...r-illegal-hits/2011/05/24/AFZRbgAH_story.html

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-08-26/nfl-says-its-serious-about-illegal-hits

 

[Rusty Coupe]

What are you saying? Are you contending that its was like a state secret that no one knew that there are long term effects from severe and continued head trauma? Get real. This wasn't a conspiracy by the NFL. There are physical risks to many jobs, and people take those jobs and the more risk involved the higher the pay. NFL players have always been paid well (relatively of course), for play a game that had obvious health risks. It was a choice they made, and it should be a choice they should live with.

That being said, I have always supported the league and its "union" to give back more to those who built the game to the level where it is now. If a player was misused by his team, or wasn't give sound medical advice, he should absolutely seek compensation. However you make it seem like suddenly it was uncovered and no one could suspect that long term hits to the head might be harmful.

This is you're incorrect interpretation of what I wrote.

What the measured baseline of players brainwaves presents correctly/incorrectly is a huge potential liability to the NFL. There is the potential for billions in lawsuits facing the league because now there is a physical tool that can show where a player's level of brain activity started before playing, and where it is after being injured.

Goodell and the NFL's attorneys see this and have started his very well publicized(not by accident) initiative for player safety. And where does all the blame fall? Squarely on the players.

There is no conspiracy(as you state - roll eyes) It is simply an attempt by the NFL to move the potential liability away from the league and it's owners.

 

[DaBruinz]

Couldn't find a recent relevant thread to the whole ridiculous 'Bountygate' nonsense so i'm posting this here.

Judge in bounty case scrutinizes key factual claim made by NFL | ProFootballTalk

Long story short, it appears as if Roger Goodell has been caught in a lie with regard to the player suspensions, more specifically whether he already determined the level of player discipline by the time the non-players were being suspended.

I don't think i'm alone in being worried about the direction this a-hole is taking the league with his two-faced double speak on player safety - "less practice, more games!!!".

From the offset this felt like another 'Spygate' re-run where Roger was willing to take advantage of the media's love of scandal, and your average fans love of piling on a proven winning franchise.

Where are the facts?

All i've ever heard are suppositions and half-baked claims about who said what into a microphone.

I'm hoping this spells the end of the era of Goodell as Commisioner.

A few things:
First and foremost, your opinion on where the league is headed doesn't mean anything. The OWNERS believe that Goodell is acting in their best interest and rewarded the guy with a contract extension not to long ago.

Next, like ausbacker, I didn't conclude that the Goodell was caught in a lie based on what the Judge said. I can see where Florio would want you to believe that based on how he wrote the article. But, the reality is that the judge is trying to determine whether or not the NFLPA actually asked for time to conduct its own investigation, when that occurred and when did Goodell have the determination for the punishments for the players. I think that the determination for the players was completed at the same time as the non-players. It would make plenty of sense.

 

[Rusty Coupe]

Goodell also instituted a policy in 2011 for penalizing teams whose players repeatedly are cited and fined for illegal hits. The player discipline hasn't been arbitrary, they have been developing and refining standards for a couple of seasons now. And Roger only took over in 2006. Like me he probably always figured there was a correlation, only the science to back up what my eyes told me lagged until fairly recently. As did the concept of changing the culture of football. Just ask Bill. He grew up in it. Knocking Goodell for trying to change it now is akin to killing the messenger.

NFL to fine teams over players’ illegal hits - The Washington Post

NFL says it's serious about illegal hits - NFL - Sporting News

On some levels I agree that Godell is just the messenger, but like with most things lawyers and dollars get mixed up in the message. There has been some ideas that going back to leather helmets might be a possible way to decrease the risk of injury, there are no easy answers.

Which town attorney will be the first will be the first to advise his/her client that High School football isn't worth the potential liability, or small colleges in the NCAA?

But despite the many fines James Harrison received in 2010 and 2011, as far as I know the Steelers themselves haven't been fined. Fining the team itself would bring this one step closer to the owners.

 

[DaBruinz]

The NFL has known for decades that players suffered from long term effects from hits to the head, exhibit A being HOF Mike Webster. Then a few years ago high profile players got behind Daryl Johnston and brought it to the public's attention. Right around the same time, a method was developed for measuring a player's baseline brainwave activity, which changes when a player has a concussion.

It was at this point that Godell began to issue arbitrary fines to players, using no methodology or standard to what kind of hit would constitute a fine or for how much. Yes, one can look at the hit Merriweather put on the Vikings TE and clearly see he was headhunting, that however was one of the few clearcut cases, most others are not.

It's amazing how you take one issue and mix it with another and come out totally wrong.

The Head Trauma issue started long before Goodell was in charge. It was well known by Tagliabue AND by Gene Upshaw. THEY were the ones who quashed it. Not Goodell. As was the Daryl Johnston case. LONG before Goodell was in any position of authority in the NFL. So, your attempt to tie that to Goodell issuing fines for blows to the head is just laughable.

What Godell's office has done is set up an arbitrary board, with unlimited power, and says look the league is doing something about safety. Yet, the only people being held responsible are the players. The league and the owners are kept out of the equation, until now the Saints, who Goodell has some issues with their coach.

You are entitled to you're opinion, some may agree or disagree, but don't lump people together with a broad brush and try to belittle others who you disagree with.

This is total garbage on your part and 100% wrong. Do yourself a favor and go read the CBA. You know. The one that was agreed to by the PLAYERS and the LEAGUE.

As for this situation, you have so many facts wrong it's hard to find a place to start.

1) The Saints were caught with their bounty program back in 2008. They were issued a warning and told to stop it.

2) Two years later, the league got reports that the bounty program hadn't stopped. They did their investigation and found that it, indeed, had not stopped. Benson and Loomis came out and apologized to the league saying that they had failed to stop the bounty program when first told.

3) The NFL said that it would announce the punishments for players and non-players at the same time. Then, at the 11th hour, the NFLPA asked them not to. (This is what is in question by the Judge). The league had already decided on the punishments it would issue to the players but was WILLING to listen to the NFLPA's recommendations. The league announced the punishment for just the non-players on March 21st.

4) The league, after waiting 6 weeks for the NFLPA to submit something in terms of its recommendations, announced the unmodified punishments of the players.

5) Vilma (16+ games), Hargrove (8), Fujita (3), and Will Smith (4) were the only 4 of a possible 22 players that were punished. I say 16+ in the event that the Saints make the play-offs. Vilma is shocked by the announcement. Says that he expected something like 8 games, but not an entire season.


It is my opinion that the NFLPA was scared by the punishments handed out by the NFL to non-players and decided to play a waiting game and attempt to fight this in court.. Something that they shouldn't be able to do based on the CBA.

It is also my opinion that if Vilma was expecting an 8 game suspension, then he knew he was involved and that the league had enough on him. It's only because of it being a 16+ game suspension that he's fighting it.

 

[Deus Irae]

Goodell's an asshat, but this seems like a case of the hometown judge essentially trying to be the lawyer for the Saints.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

This is you're incorrect interpretation of what I wrote.

What the measured baseline of players brainwaves presents correctly/incorrectly is a huge potential liability to the NFL. There is the potential for billions in lawsuits facing the league because now there is a physical tool that can show where a player's level of brain activity started before playing, and where it is after being injured.

Goodell and the NFL's attorneys see this and have started his very well publicized(not by accident) initiative for player safety. And where does all the blame fall? Squarely on the players.

There is no conspiracy(as you state - roll eyes) It is simply an attempt by the NFL to move the potential liability away from the league and it's owners.

Player Safety has always been an issue. They've been making rules that cover player safety since the beginning of the league.

The players' contention has been that the league has known that the head trauma situation has always been worse than was advertised. I believe that to be false. I believe that it's only been in the last 15 years that the medical profession has really started to put a focus on concussions and the long term effects. And, in the past 15 years, as new technology has developed, the NFL has tried it's best to push teams, vendors and players to accept the new technology. But, when you hear about players refusing to wear a type of helmet because it feels different and they go back to one that is of lesser quality, that is solely on the player.

Leigh Steinberg disagrees with your assessment of Goodell and the Concussion situation. Steinberg actually hails Goodell as being a pioneer in modern concussion enlightenment. And he did this because of Goodell instituting the baseline brain scan requirement. Something that was unheard of in the mid 90s.

NFL continues to tackle concussion issue headon

But, the Concussion issue is not what Bountygate is about. It's about players willfully targeting other players with the intent to injure that player. Which is well outside the normal rules of the game.

 

[Ring 6]

The NFL has known for decades that players suffered from long term effects from hits to the head, exhibit A being HOF Mike Webster. Then a few years ago high profile players got behind Daryl Johnston and brought it to the public's attention. Right around the same time, a method was developed for measuring a player's baseline brainwave activity, which changes when a player has a concussion.

It was at this point that Godell began to issue arbitrary fines to players, using no methodology or standard to what kind of hit would constitute a fine or for how much. Yes, one can look at the hit Merriweather put on the Vikings TE and clearly see he was headhunting, that however was one of the few clearcut cases, most others are not.

What Godell's office has done is set up an arbitrary board, with unlimited power, and says look the league is doing something about safety. Yet, the only people being held responsible are the players. The league and the owners are kept out of the equation, until now the Saints, who Goodell has some issues with their coach.

You are entitled to you're opinion, some may agree or disagree, but don't lump people together with a broad brush and try to belittle others who you disagree with.

This was collectively bargained.

 

[Rusty Coupe]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

Player Safety has always been an issue. They've been making rules that cover player safety since the beginning of the league.

The players' contention has been that the league has known that the head trauma situation has always been worse than was advertised. I believe that to be false. I believe that it's only been in the last 15 years that the medical profession has really started to put a focus on concussions and the long term effects. And, in the past 15 years, as new technology has developed, the NFL has tried it's best to push teams, vendors and players to accept the new technology. But, when you hear about players refusing to wear a type of helmet because it feels different and they go back to one that is of lesser quality, that is solely on the player.

Leigh Steinberg disagrees with your assessment of Goodell and the Concussion situation. Steinberg actually hails Goodell as being a pioneer in modern concussion enlightenment. And he did this because of Goodell instituting the baseline brain scan requirement. Something that was unheard of in the mid 90s.

NFL continues to tackle concussion issue headon

But, the Concussion issue is not what Bountygate is about. It's about players willfully targeting other players with the intent to injure that player. Which is well outside the normal rules of the game.

The NFL this week cleared the Redskins,and I think Bills(wherever Gregg Williams used to coach) from having a bounty system. This is simply not believable. From so many places in the league former players have come foward and said the bounty system has been in place forever.

What happened to the Saints is akin to driving with the flow of traffic on the Mass Pike with 31 other cars at 85mph, the black and gold car with the fleur de lis got pulled over for doing 20 over the speed limit. I don't know, maybe the statie's wife decorated the new bathroom in back and gold and he hates it, but it was the Saints who got pulled over.

The CBA is written on the same brand of toilet paper that non guaranteed contracts are. The one's who control the money own the casino, litigate all you wan't and it will be tied up in court for decades. A CBA however doesn't preclude the law of the land, how a court chooses to interpret written laws varies unfortunatly.

As far as Godell is concerned about the head injuries, I'm going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Joker]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

Player Safety has always been an issue. They've been making rules that cover player safety since the beginning of the league.

The players' contention has been that the league has known that the head trauma situation has always been worse than was advertised. I believe that to be false. I believe that it's only been in the last 15 years that the medical profession has really started to put a focus on concussions and the long term effects. And, in the past 15 years, as new technology has developed, the NFL has tried it's best to push teams, vendors and players to accept the new technology. But, when you hear about players refusing to wear a type of helmet because it feels different and they go back to one that is of lesser quality, that is solely on the player.

Leigh Steinberg disagrees with your assessment of Goodell and the Concussion situation. Steinberg actually hails Goodell as being a pioneer in modern concussion enlightenment. And he did this because of Goodell instituting the baseline brain scan requirement. Something that was unheard of in the mid 90s. ....and something Goodell was well aware of when he took over as Commisoiner in 2006, and something Goodell did his best to keep under wraps and quash at every turn until forced into taking up remedial action in 2009

NFL continues to tackle concussion issue headon

But, the Concussion issue is not what Bountygate is about. It's about players willfully targeting other players with the intent to injure that player. Which is well outside the normal rules of the game.

Paying the Piper: NFL

Goodell..pioneer....just wow....studies on concussive issues related to football began back in the 80's. The pioneers are the doctors and researchers who have been working on this all along....NOT Roger Goodell, who tried to downplay the issue until it blew up in his face in 2009. There seems to be no end to the revisionist history when it comes to the near deification of Goodell by his supporters.Seems there is only one side to any discussion involving Roger Goodell...total, unequivocal, 100% approval. Any attempt to question his motives or tactics are met with near Nazi like propaganda.Roger Goodell is NOT a lawyer, yet he is hailed here as a never wrong arbiter of all things legal pertaining to the NFL. Roger Goodell is certainly no medical professional, in fact,one has to question anything he's involved with concerning the medical issues that the league is dealing with.Pioneer? this is so ludicrous it defies understanding.

 

[ClevTrev]

Re: OT: Goodell caught with hands in cookie jar

But, the Concussion issue is not what Bountygate is about. It's about players willfully targeting other players with the intent to injure that player. Which is well outside the normal rules of the game.

And that's the key point in all this, "players willfully targeting other players with the intent to injure that player." The fact that was occurring with cash incentives is a direct and flagrant violation of the rules of the game.

Interesting conversation in the courtroom, and I've not read it all, but it doesn't appear that the element of players injured as a direct result of Bountygate and; therefore, having their ability to make a living put in jeopardy due to injuries incurred, doesn't seem to bother the NFLPA or the judge.