Hypothetical Patriots HOF

[lurker1965]

Would you put Welker in the Patriot's HOF?

If he is a Patriot for a few more years, he is a lock. (I'm talking PATRIOTS HOF.) If he is cut or gets a ridiculous offer and plays his last year as a shadow of himself, OK. If he turns away a decent offer and plays for another team and has the catch that eliminates the Patriots from the playoffs, I'd have to think about it.

What say you?

 

[everlong]

He needs 4 receptions to be the all time franchise leader.

262 yards he'll only trail Stanley Morgan.

He's the all time leader in the NFL in 100 reception seasons at 4. He's tied with Chris Carter at 2 with 120+ reception seasons and all of these seasons happened as a Patriot.

He's 7th in punt return yards.

If his 2012 season is another 100+, 1000+ then I don't see how he doesn't make it.

 

[BradyFTW!]

If Welker never played another snap for the Pats, he would still belong in their HOF.

 

[TyronePoole]

he's already a lock imo, I think it's sad that some would even question it

 

[Ron Sellers]

If he turns away a decent offer and plays for another team and has the catch that eliminates the Patriots from the playoffs, I'd have to think about it.

What say you?

Personally I am going to disagree, specifically with this portion.

When it comes to the team's Hall of Fame, players should be judged solely on their performance on the field as a member of the Patriots.

A player should not be penalized because another team offered more money, and he accepted that offer. That's on the Patriots front office to match that offer; it's not on the player to accept a lower salary.

 

[goheels22002]

I think the question is whether he will make the NFL HOF.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I think the question is whether he will make the NFL HOF.

Some here can't fathom that. But if he has another 100+ reception season he's going to be in the discussion and if he wins a ring here the discussion won't be much of an argument. Not a first ballot or anything, but a guy who gets in eventually. HOF voter Peter King spoke to that a few month ago in one of his columns. The consistency of his career as a starter and the fact that he's done it with and without Brady and with an evolving cast of characters as opposed to as Randy's beneficiary or the TE's beneficiary. The HOF is supposed to be about dominance at your position, not just accumulated empty yardage as a result of longevity or perception based on team accomplishment.

 

[nukin]

Let me ask you this, has Wes won a Super Bowl? Let's see what happens. :-O

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Let me ask you this, has Wes won a Super Bowl? Let's see what happens. :-O

Players don't win Super Bowls, teams do. Just ask Dan Marino. Guys make one in a million freak catches and score TD's and land on the street in a year or two and won't sniff even their teams HOF unless they buy a ticket.

 

[Ron Sellers]

Let me ask you this, has Wes won a Super Bowl? Let's see what happens. :-O

Based on that logic then you must also believe that John Hannah, Andre Tippett, Steve Grogan, Drew Bledsoe, Sam Cunningham, Jim Nance and several other current members do not deserve to be in the Patriots HoF.

 

[peterforpats]

drew bledsoe won a super bowl

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Of course he belongs in the Pats HOF.

He should also get serious consideration for Canton if he can put up three more seasons like his last three.

HOF WR stats are all over the place, as you might expect, given how the game has changed.

They range from Jerry Rice, Art Monk and Steve Largent at the top of the heap:
Rice: 1,549 receptions, 22,895 yards, 197 TD's
Monk: 940, 12,721, 68
Largent: 819, 13,089, 100

to players like Tommy McDonald (495 receptions, 8,410 yards, 84 TD's) and John Stallworth (537, 8,732, 63)

The most recent contemporary WR enshrinee was Shannon Sharp:
Receptions: 815
Yards: 10,060
TD's: 62.

Welker now has 650 Receptions, 7,226 yards and 32 TD's.

I did some quick math and if he put up three more seasons at his average production from the last three years, he would end up at:
Receptions: 981
Yards: 10,991
TD's: 52.

It would be hard to argue that he didn't belong if he can give three more years at a high level and end up with those stats, unless you want to quibble about the TD number. I couldn't find any WR in Canton with less than 60, but it could be explained as the downside of playing alongside Randy Moss, Gronk and Hernandez.

Sharpe retired at 35 and Wes is still only 30. Monk retired at 38, Largent at 35. So, barring injury or concerns raised by our increased awareness of the dangers of head trauma, it's definitely possible to make a strong case for Wes to join them in Canton after three more years at a high level.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Of course he belongs in the Pats HOF.

He should also get serious consideration for Canton if he can put up three more seasons like his last three.

HOF WR stats are all over the place, as you might expect, given how the game has changed.

They range from Jerry Rice, Art Monk and Steve Largent at the top of the heap:
Rice: 1,549 receptions, 22,895 yards, 197 TD's
Monk: 940, 12,721, 68
Largent: 819, 13,089, 100

to players like Tommy McDonald (495 receptions, 8,410 yards, 84 TD's) and John Stallworth (537, 8,732, 63)

The most recent contemporary WR enshrinee was Shannon Sharp:
Receptions: 815
Yards: 10,060
TD's: 62.

Welker now has 650 Receptions, 7,226 yards and 32 TD's.

I did some quick math and if he put up three more seasons at his average production from the last three years, he would end up at:
Receptions: 981
Yards: 10,991
TD's: 52.

It would be hard to argue that he didn't belong if he can give three more years at a high level and end up with those stats, unless you want to quibble about the TD number. I couldn't find any WR in Canton with less than 60, but it could be explained as the downside of playing alongside Randy Moss, Gronk and Hernandez.

Sharpe retired at 35 and Wes is still only 30. Monk retired at 38, Largent at 35. So, barring injury or concerns raised by our increased awareness of the dangers of head trauma, it's definitely possible to make a strong case for Wes to join them in Canton after three more years at a high level.

It's not just about cumulative stats though, any more than it's about rings. It's about consistent excellence and essentially dominance at a position for an extended period of time. Wes has been the dominant slot receiver in the league for the last 5 years and has put up stats aside from TD's that rival most of his receiver peers, wide or slot.

Bedard had something in his Sunday Notes that resonates. Wes was always more than some short waterbug guy who might find a niche in the right system. He was a guy systems were adapted for...

With mandatory veteran minicamps getting under way next week, the NFL “dead period’’ will soon commence. Nearly the entire NFL world takes vacation from the end of June until the beginning of training camp. It’s the only vacuum in the schedule (something I’m sure the league is working on).

So I encourage you to do a little reading. And if you want to understand the nuances of the game a bit better, you should start with “Take Your Eye Off the Ball’’ by Pat Kirwan, then follow up with the just-released “The Essential Smart Football’’ by Chris B. Brown.

Brown’s book, which features some of his work from Grantland.com and also his smartfootball.com blog, is a bit more advanced, and I can’t recommend it highly enough.

Patriots fans will be interested in the chapters involving their team: on how the Patriots use Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez to thwart the Jets; on Tom Brady and the no-huddle attack; and how they can use Vince Wilfork to play two different styles of defense — one-gap and two-gap — during the same play.

There is also mention of Hernandez in the chapter about Urban Meyer’s offense at Florida, and of Wes Welker in a section describing the rise of the innovative version of the Air Raid offense by then-Texas Tech coach Mike Leach. Leach replaced the running back in the BYU Air Raid offense with a slot receiver who just happened to be Welker.

“Indeed, a lot of the evolution of Leach’s offense at Tech was designed around ways to play to Welker’s strengths, whether it was running stick concepts to his side . . . or using four vertical [routes] with an immediate read element to play to his natural ability to find creases in the defense wherever they are,’’ Brown wrote.

Sound familiar? That’s exactly how Welker thrives in the Patriots offense

 

[lurker1965]

Of course he belongs in the Pats HOF.

He should also get serious consideration for Canton if he can put up three more seasons like his last three.

HOF WR stats are all over the place, as you might expect, given how the game has changed.

They range from Jerry Rice, Art Monk and Steve Largent at the top of the heap:
Rice: 1,549 receptions, 22,895 yards, 197 TD's
Monk: 940, 12,721, 68
Largent: 819, 13,089, 100

to players like Tommy McDonald (495 receptions, 8,410 yards, 84 TD's) and John Stallworth (537, 8,732, 63)

The most recent contemporary WR enshrinee was Shannon Sharp:
Receptions: 815
Yards: 10,060
TD's: 62.

Welker now has 650 Receptions, 7,226 yards and 32 TD's.

I did some quick math and if he put up three more seasons at his average production from the last three years, he would end up at:
Receptions: 981
Yards: 10,991
TD's: 52.

It would be hard to argue that he didn't belong if he can give three more years at a high level and end up with those stats, unless you want to quibble about the TD number. I couldn't find any WR in Canton with less than 60, but it could be explained as the downside of playing alongside Randy Moss, Gronk and Hernandez.

Sharpe retired at 35 and Wes is still only 30. Monk retired at 38, Largent at 35. So, barring injury or concerns raised by our increased awareness of the dangers of head trauma, it's definitely possible to make a strong case for Wes to join them in Canton after three more years at a high level.

I agree with you, but for argument's sake say his last three years are even better, but spends them with the Jets (via a bad trade).

I'd put him in Canton, but the Patriots HOF is a different question. I admit that part of it would be how butt hurt I'd be - 10 years is there for a reason.

That leads to another poll question.

 

[DarrylS]

The Patriots HOF is essentially a popularity contest, Wes is very popular and it depends who he is up against.. if he retires the same time as Brady, will have to wait at least a year.

Against someone else, depends on who it is..

 

[Ron Sellers]

Since the game has changed so much over time comparing stats between players from different eras is useless. In addition many positions have few if any relevant stats in comparison to other sports (although WR is not one of them).

A better way to look at it is to see how a player compared with his peers. For how many years was the best at his position, or one of the top three or top five.

Where did that player rank over his top five, top six, top eight seasons? This creates a minimum for players with very short careers, while players with very long careers are not given too big of an advantage.

Last consideration is how important he is to his team's success. A quarterback ranks high in this regard; a right guard or punter not so much.



In Welker's case the only area up for debate is how long he has played at an elite level: five years. I would say that this should be enough to get him into the team's hall of fame because the relatively short time is more than offset but the extremely high level of production during that time. To get into the NFL HoF it's likely going to take at least one, perhaps as many as three more very good seasons.

 

[Ron Sellers]

I agree with you, but for argument's sake say his last three years are even better, but spends them with the Jets (via a bad trade).

I'd put him in Canton, but the Patriots HOF is a different question. I admit that part of it would be how butt hurt I'd be - 10 years is there for a reason.

So basically you are saying how well a player does with another team determines whether or not he deserves to get into the Pats HoF?

Why should a player be penalized for the team deciding to trade him?

Would you apply the same standard to Tom Brady if the Pats traded him a year or two from now?

 

[lurker1965]

So basically you are saying how well a player does with another team determines whether or not he deserves to get into the Pats HoF?

Why should a player be penalized for the team deciding to trade him?

Would you apply the same standard to Tom Brady if the Pats traded him a year or two from now?

Yes. If I'm left butthurt I don't vote for him in the Poll on Patriots.com

You find that confusing?

Yes, if Tom Brady suddenly gets mad and shoots his way out of town - I better add that is an unlikely scenario - and has fifteen productive years with the Jets as he becomes the bane of the Patriots. (I said fifteen because he has 10 with us, not 5 like Welker [my math maybe off].)

That you'd give him a pass then I find confusing. No I don't. I'd find you disagree with me.

I bet we probably disagree on Parcells too.