Believing Baloney

[AzPatsFan]

I am amazed that Patriot fans here on these boards ares starting to buy in to the biggest baloney that I have ever heard. It is getting repeated so much that even we fans who ought to KNOW BETTER are starting to begrudgingly say the same nonsense in our posts.

The best example of this phenomenon are the Bolts and Colts.
The NONSENSE is that these teams have MORE TALENTED players.

Just because the Bolts let two loudmouth OLBs, ignore the run, ignore the pass in the flat, and madly rush the QB and manage between the two of them to get a dozen or more sacks for each of them, we say they are better than the OLBs playing for the Patriots. Nothing but Freeneys!

The Patriots OLBs are only allowed to play fundamental defensive football. They are coached to read-and-react, check the run, check the flat pass and screen, and only then rush the passer. Three guys split the assignments and so each end up with a half dozen or so sacks, but the defensive PR is 66 and the Running defense is 3.5 YPC.

Why do you sophisticated fans buy in to the idea the asses playing selfish OLB for the Bolts are better? They aren't !!!

I maintain its harder to play fundamental defense and stop the run and pass and still get a half dozen sacks apiece for the season, than to get gaudy and meaningless sacks when you yield a PR of 77, and a 4.2 YPC rushing average.

Another example. The Colts have great WRs. But if you look at their stats Wayne 95, and Harrison 86, got all but a small handful (< 10) of the WR catches.

For the Pats six WRs split the receptions, making the Pats have great depth, the possibility of a breakout by a new guy like Jabbar Gaffney, and have the ability to withstand injury. Its the Patriot system under Belichick.

Are the Colts receivers all that much better? Or do they simply play in a system that gives them essentially ALL the WR receptions and inflate their statistics?

I pointed out that Red Auerbach never had a single player in the top ten in scoring in the NBA. But he did have 12 in the balance of top forty. Spread it around. No single injury save Russell could prevent their winning 11 in 13. (Russel WAS hurt in the single other year.) If a Sam Jones has an off night, or someone was in foul trouble, any one of the others could pick up and take over the scoring. The machine rolls on. Red and Bill use the same strategy.

You guys should KNOW BETTER. The Belichick system minimizes startling and gaudy stats for the good of T-E-A-M and depth. Don't buy into the idea that other Teams have "better talent". Its mostly bunk!

 

[Oswlek]

1) NE players are read and react when that is their responsibility in the play call. There are plenty of times that NE LBs and DLs rush the passer without considering the run. While I feel that you are minimizing the talent that Phillips and Merriman do have, I do agree with you that people will gravitate to, and exaggerate the importance of certain individual statistics.

2) Wayne and Harrison are most certainly better than anyone NE has trotted out there this season. If anything the fact that they dominate the catches compared to their NE counterparts is evidence of this. Don't overlook the fact that Indy has been missing Stokely and Clark for much of the season, which increases the focus on Wayne and Harrison.

I think what you are saying is that individual statistics are lousy predictors of team success. I agree wholeheartedly with that point. I also agree with the fact that NE has done a better job of spreading talent throughout their roster than any other team in the league.

I do think that, in trying to make those points, you minimized the ability of NE's opponents though.

 

[hwc]

Are the Colts receivers all that much better?

Uhhh. Yes.

IMO, Marvin Harrison is the best wide receiver in the NFL. Have you watched him play? He is amazing.

Defenders can know exactly what route he's running and they can't stop him.

 

[Fanfrom1960]

Good post and a way of looking at it that I don't think I've seen. About the Celtics, I would like to point out that, maybe he didn't have any leaders in scoring, but Red had about seven hall of famers on those teams, eight if you include him. They didn't all play together, as Cousy and Sharman were replaced by Sam and KC (no relation) Jones, and Ramsey and Havlicek didn't overlap much. Interesting that the Patriots dynasty will probably put less people in the hall of fame than any of the prior ones: Browns, Packers, Steelers, 49ers and Cowboys. Is that because of the salary cap, or Belichick genius? Probably some of each.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Good post and a way of looking at it that I don't think I've seen. About the Celtics, I would like to point out that, maybe he didn't have any leaders in scoring, but Red had about seven hall of famers on those teams, eight if you include him. They didn't all play together, as Cousy and Sharman were replaced by Sam and KC (no relation) Jones, and Ramsey and Havlicek didn't overlap much. Interesting that the Patriots dynasty will probably put less people in the hall of fame than any of the prior ones: Browns, Packers, Steelers, 49ers and Cowboys. Is that because of the salary cap, or Belichick genius? Probably some of each.

Sam Jones was a scorer. If Red wanted him to shoot, shoot and shoot some more, he could have averaged in the forties every game.

Red didn't want that and Sam was enough of a TEAM player to play with in the parameters that Red wanted. It wasn't until the talent elsewhere declined, that Hondo was unleashed. For years he "invented" the "sixth man" and embodied that position.

 

[shirtsleeve]

I am amazed that Patriot fans here on these boards ares starting to buy in to the biggest baloney that I have ever heard. It is getting repeated so much that even we fans who ought to KNOW BETTER are starting to begrudgingly say the same nonsense in our posts.

The best example of this phenomenon are the Bolts and Colts.
The NONSENSE is that these teams have MORE TALENTED players.

Just because the Bolts let two loudmouth OLBs, ignore the run, ignore the pass in the flat, and madly rush the QB and manage between the two of them to get a dozen or more sacks for each of them, we say they are better than the OLBs playing for the Patriots. Nothing but Freeneys!

The Patriots OLBs are only allowed to play fundamental defensive football. They are coached to read-and-react, check the run, check the flat pass and screen, and only then rush the passer. Three guys split the assignments and so each end up with a half dozen or so sacks, but the defensive PR is 66 and the Running defense is 3.5 YPC.

Why do you sophisticated fans buy in to the idea the asses playing selfish OLB for the Bolts are better? They aren't !!!

I maintain its harder to play fundamental defense and stop the run and pass and still get a half dozen sacks apiece for the season, than to get gaudy and meaningless sacks when you yield a PR of 77, and a 4.2 YPC rushing average.

Another example. The Colts have great WRs. But if you look at their stats Wayne 95, and Harrison 86, got all but a small handful (< 10) of the WR catches.

For the Pats six WRs split the receptions, making the Pats have great depth, the possibility of a breakout by a new guy like Jabbar Gaffney, and have the ability to withstand injury. Its the Patriot system under Belichick.

Are the Colts receivers all that much better? Or do they simply play in a system that gives them essentially ALL the WR receptions and inflate their statistics?

I pointed out that Red Auerbach never had a single player in the top ten in scoring in the NBA. But he did have 12 in the balance of top forty. Spread it around. No single injury save Russell could prevent their winning 11 in 13. (Russel WAS hurt in the single other year.) If a Sam Jones has an off night, or someone was in foul trouble, any one of the others could pick up and take over the scoring. The machine rolls on. Red and Bill use the same strategy.

You guys should KNOW BETTER. The Belichick system minimizes startling and gaudy stats for the good of T-E-A-M and depth. Don't buy into the idea that other Teams have "better talent". Its mostly bunk!

:yeahthat:
Amen.

But to discredit their starting WR's is not altogether fair. Granted, TB's fovorite receiver is the (semi) open one, but with those two starting, our team could score 42, at will, every game. With those two, who do you cover in our offense????? The TE's and Faulk would eat every defense for breakfast if they focused on those two. If they didn't, those two would be in the end zone on every possession.

But you have our team exactly right.

 

[unoriginal]

Your OLB point is strong, because Rosy Colvin was clearly the best outside linebacker, or perhaps just linebacker, on that field. His side of the field was on lockdown, plus he made a great play on Rivers' pass. That and both San Diego OLB's were/got injured.

Harrison and Wayne, however, are no joke. They have been doing what they do for a long, long time. If they were pretenders the league would have figured them out by now.

 

[Fogbuster]

I am amazed that Patriot fans here on these boards ares starting to buy in to the biggest baloney that I have ever heard. It is getting repeated so much that even we fans who ought to KNOW BETTER are starting to begrudgingly say the same nonsense in our posts.
....
You guys should KNOW BETTER. The Belichick system minimizes startling and gaudy stats for the good of T-E-A-M and depth. Don't buy into the idea that other Teams have "better talent". Its mostly bunk!

You go, dude. That's EXACTLY the difference between a *TEAM* that wins and wins *CONSISTENTLY* and those who flash for a season or two, then disintegrate when their superstars have a bad year -- or drive their motorcycles into cars in the off-season.

I'll take the BB-Auerbach approach every time. I like winning, and I don't care who gets the final shot as long as it goes in.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Your OLB point is strong, because Rosy Colvin was clearly the best outside linebacker, or perhaps just linebacker, on that field. His side of the field was on lockdown, plus he made a great play on Rivers' pass. That and both San Diego OLB's were/got injured.

Harrison and Wayne, however, are no joke. They have been doing what they do for a long, long time. If they were pretenders the league would have figured them out by now.

I purposely chose that comparison with the Colts WRs for a reason. To generate some startled controversy and stimulate some thinking.

There's two of them, as WRs in Indy, (yes Stokley is injured; Gabriel is gone!)not a half dozen as the Pats used. They have been good for a long time; do you think that Caldwell & Gaffney will be better, when they have played with Brady for three or five more years, like the (fading?) dynamic duo in Coltsland?

 

[hwc]

do you think that Caldwell & Gaffney will be better, when they have played with Brady for three or five more years...?

No.

As I said, Marvin Harrison is the best WR in the NFL and one of the best WR to ever play the game. He's that good. He makes Peyton Manning look that good.

 

[Richter]

Uhhh. Yes.

IMO, Marvin Harrison is the best wide receiver in the NFL. Have you watched him play? He is amazing.

Defenders can know exactly what route he's running and they can't stop him.

I've watched him play all season. He's isn't the same guy anymore. Wayne has surpassed him, he's not even the best WR on his own team. Plus, he wasn't doing too much against the Chiefs or Ravens. Maybe he'll blow up, he's still a very good, talented player, but I'm far more worried about the guy that lines up on the other side of the field.

 

[mgteich]

I have no idea what this thread is about. Perhaps I just disagree.

The colts have by far the best receivers in football. Our receivers can play for the next ten years with Brady. That will not then as good as Harrison, Wayne, Stokely, Clark and Utrecht, and Morehead and whoever else.

If these are simply mediocre receivers, then Manning is the best QB in NFL, hand down. Their offense has been incredible. Personally, I believe that the talent is not just at QB.

And for years, posters said that Edge was the key. Well, Rhodes and Addai did as well this year.

We've said that the Colts five, four, three, two and one year ago were in cap he$$ and they are this year and next. This is utter nonesense to convice us of I don't know what. We diss their coaching and quarterback on a routine basis. And then we wonder where Proehl came from, and how come they can play with only two receivers.

I think that we are a better team than the colts and better than the chargers. To me, it doesn't make us better to consider that these are poor teams. For me, the top six in the afc were all better teams than anyone in the NFC except for New Orleans.

I don't understand the attitude that there is only good team in the NFL. If that's the case, winning doesn't mean very much.

When we beat the colts, we will have beaten the second or third best team the NFL, something to be proud of.

 

[arrellbee]

You have to be a little careful when you attach a status to Wayne and Harrison. Don't get me wrong - they are top WRs. But in terms of dominance, even with the huge emphasis that the Colts and especially Manning put on passing, Wayne has a reception percentage of 63% and Harrison 64% [footballoutsiders.com]. In the top 15 productive WR, 5 had receiving percentages greater than that. Reche Caldwell was at 60% even with the process of getting on the same page with Brady.

Certainly outsiders list Wayne and Harrison as the most productive receivers by their productivity stat evaluation. But you still have to consider that we certainly know that Manning intentionally uses the passing game for his productivity and, as AzPatsFan indicates, those two WR get virtually all of the WR plays. I guess it seems like you just have to be careful over-hyping Wayne and Harrison as individual talents even while recognizing that they are top WRs. And since the Patriots scored 46 total TDs, very close to Indy's 50, I'm not sure just how much more Wayne and Harrison could and would add to the Patriots production. Just some considerations.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

1) NE players are read and react when that is their responsibility in the play call. There are plenty of times that NE LBs and DLs rush the passer without considering the run. While I feel that you are minimizing the talent that Phillips and Merriman do have, I do agree with you that people will gravitate to, and exaggerate the importance of certain individual statistics.

2) Wayne and Harrison are most certainly better than anyone NE has trotted out there this season. If anything the fact that they dominate the catches compared to their NE counterparts is evidence of this. Don't overlook the fact that Indy has been missing Stokely and Clark for much of the season, which increases the focus on Wayne and Harrison.

I think what you are saying is that individual statistics are lousy predictors of team success. I agree wholeheartedly with that point. I also agree with the fact that NE has done a better job of spreading talent throughout their roster than any other team in the league.

I do think that, in trying to make those points, you minimized the ability of NE's opponents though.

This is the truth. Also, the fact is that we make due with less talent and/or just plain older players. But that is at the top end of the roster. We have a solid middle class of B+ level players, and we have a handful of truly talented and young top players, but most certainly less than the Chargers.

The fact is that we are making the best we can out of what we have while teams like the Chargers are making a mess out of what they have, and in five years I fully believe that the Chargers will still be waffling around. As an organization, they act a lot like Miami when Miami is good. They think they are entitled to a superbowl, and therefore ultimately fail to move on in the playoffs. It would take a serious miracle to make that team humble enough to get the job done the right way. Loudmouth football doesn't work as well as it used to because teams are too closely matched. You need to play your cards closer to your chest in this era of the salary cap. Talent no longer trumps teamwork.