Making sense of Goodell

[ivanvamp]

I agree re/ Spygate. My guess is that other teams did this; but the Pats were the only ones caught. Again, Goodell's penalty severity was assigned not based on the "merits" of the underlying infraction (Goodell's not stupid--I've got to believe that at a minimum, he had strong suspicions that the Pats weren't unique here, and I'm sure he believed that any advantage gleaned from the taping was marginal at best). Rather, the severity was assigned based on potential PR damage to the league.

Spygate stinks because of how it continues to be perceived by the masses outside of Patriot Nation. We see it as something like this: we're all on a highway, and a lot of people are speeding - maybe not everyone, but a fair number. Another guy who is speeding calls 911 and a cop comes by and pulls us over - and only us. We are not merely handed a $100 ticket - we are fined $20,000 and spend a week in jail. And that goes on our permanent criminal record.

That's how we feel. Like, geez, yes, ok, the Pats violated a minor rule. But a lot of other people (including the guy that ratted us out) were doing it too, so why are the Pats being singled out, and, moreover, why is everyone treating this like the Pats paid off officials or something? It's the knowledge that a lot of people feel that NE's championships are tainted that bothers us, because we know they aren't, and we don't want the accomplishments of our favorite team being stained.

As far as Goodell is concerned, I think he's shown himself to be a serious hypocrite. Calling for all these changes for the sake of player safety, but then pushing for an 18-game season. It shows that he's all about the influx of more money for the NFL (which, as the commish, is probably his job). He may, or may not, care about safety. But what he really cares about is that the public believes that he is cleaning up the game - rooting out "cheating" (e.g., spygate), changing the rules on hard hits (helmet to helmet, launching yourself at a receiver, etc.), and coming down so severely on Bountygate (I hate the "gate" at the end of everything). He's trying to give the public the perception that the NFL takes all these things seriously, wanting to provide a great athletic contest and great entertainment free from the stain of corruption and, of course, free from the possible concussion-related lawsuits potentially staring the league in the face.

Goodell knows that so much of this has been around long before he got involved in the league, but he's being the sherriff and is cleaning it up. That's the message he is trying to send, anyway.

 

[The Gr8est]

Spygate stinks because of how it continues to be perceived by the masses outside of Patriot Nation. We see it as something like this: we're all on a highway, and a lot of people are speeding - maybe not everyone, but a fair number. Another guy who is speeding, calls 911 and a cop, who coincidentally happens to be the brother-in-law of the guy calling in the complaint, comes by and pulls us over - and only us. We are not merely handed a $100 ticket - we are fined $20,000 and spend a week in jail. And that goes on our permanent criminal record.

That's how we feel. Like, geez, yes, ok, the Pats violated a minor rule. But a lot of other people (including the guy that ratted us out) were doing it too, so why are the Pats being singled out, and, moreover, why is everyone treating this like the Pats paid off officials or something? It's the knowledge that a lot of people feel that NE's championships are tainted that bothers us, because we know they aren't, and we don't want the accomplishments of our favorite team being stained.

As far as Goodell is concerned, I think he's shown himself to be a serious hypocrite. Calling for all these changes for the sake of player safety, but then pushing for an 18-game season. It shows that he's all about the influx of more money for the NFL (which, as the commish, is probably his job). He may, or may not, care about safety. But what he really cares about is that the public believes that he is cleaning up the game - rooting out "cheating" (e.g., spygate), changing the rules on hard hits (helmet to helmet, launching yourself at a receiver, etc.), and coming down so severely on Bountygate (I hate the "gate" at the end of everything). He's trying to give the public the perception that the NFL takes all these things seriously, wanting to provide a great athletic contest and great entertainment free from the stain of corruption and, of course, free from the possible concussion-related lawsuits potentially staring the league in the face.

Goodell knows that so much of this has been around long before he got involved in the league, but he's being the sherriff and is cleaning it up. That's the message he is trying to send, anyway.

Fixed your analogy.

 

[ivanvamp]

Fixed you analogy.

Much obliged.

 

[Gumby]

Fixed you analogy.

too funny (the greatest humor is based 100% on truth) ; if it weren't so sad too.

Goodell knows that so much of this has been around long before he got involved in the league, but he's being the sherriff and is cleaning it up. That's the message he is trying to send, anyway.

Agree somewhat with this and the insulation from lawsuits argument by the OP. And those two arguments for WHY? are even more applicable to the dramatic increases in fines for bad hits etc.

But as far as camera-gate and bounty-gate (I too dislike 'gate'); the dominant reason for the heavy hand is really the napoleonic, corporate-don attitude of Goodell. He feels his position is challenged by anyone who APPEARS TO DISREGARD HIM. So even though Pats weren't the only team disregarding the infamous 14 month old memo; Pats were the ones with the hand in the cookie jar when he walked in the door. So he threw the hammer down. Particularly because he was a new commish. he wanted to establish his legitamacy and make himself invulnerable to contradictary voices.
At that point too, he knew that there was enough jealousy in the league that no one would step up to the plate for the pats. (kind of like a hitler strategy- pick on the most despised minorities first; gypsies, then go for the jews, then go for the political opponents and then the christians)

With bounty-gate it seems like more info is coming out that brings the "fully orchestrated program" into question. But the punishment is really all about his order to stop. N.O. didnt stop it so he will hammer them too. More for blowing his authority off than for the act itself. And that is why he will NEVER investigate any other team for the offense (nor for cameras either) because he thinks he scared the heck out of everyone.

 

[Off The Grid]

I agree re/ Spygate. My guess is that other teams did this; but the Pats were the only ones caught. Again, Goodell's penalty severity was assigned not based on the "merits" of the underlying infraction (Goodell's not stupid--I've got to believe that at a minimum, he had strong suspicions that the Pats weren't unique here, and I'm sure he believed that any advantage gleaned from the taping was marginal at best). Rather, the severity was assigned based on potential PR damage to the league.

Goodell and the league may fully understand how misinformed and misguided mob/public perception can be, but they'll still go to great lengths to cater to it. With Spygate, they feared that the public perception of an uneven playing field and illegitimate championships would spread like wildfire.

Their response was proportional to the threat of that public perception evolving, rather than the damage done by the actual underlying act. Ultimately I think that's the main reason you guys got the penalty you did.

I think you give that Sewage FAR more credit than he deserves.

It was only BECAUSE that vile, despicable SCUM imposed such a LUDICROUS penalty, that the vast majority of authority-figure-worshiping morons deduced that we MUST have done something awful, otherwise why would good old Roger the Sewage ~ GOD, I hope he DIAF's!! ~ impose such an harsh penalty???

Had the penalty been FAIR ~ proportionate ~ it would've been a 3rd day Pick at MOST, seeing's how that's what teams get hit with when they're caught Tampering.

What a lump of greasy SEWAGE Goodell is.

Great Thread, by the way!!

 

[lillloyd]

I think you give that Sewage FAR more credit than he deserves.

It was only BECAUSE that vile, despicable SCUM imposed such a LUDICROUS penalty, that the vast majority of authority-figure-worshiping morons deduced that we MUST have done something awful, otherwise why would good old Roger the Sewage ~ GOD, I hope he DIAF's!! ~ impose such an harsh penalty???

LOL, it's crazy to say this on a Pats board, but here goes: I think you could legitimately go out and share a beer with James Harrison on this issue. (Technically, Harrison never said he wanted Goodell to DIAF...but he is on record saying if Goodell were *already* on fire, that he wouldn't piss on him to put it out).

In all seriousness though, you make a good point--but I would add that this isn't applicable only to Pats fans and Spygate. Basically, you can't simply look at fines and punishments levied by Goodell in today's NFL and determine the actual severity of the underlying crime, because the underlying act is only a modest part of the calculus used to determine the penalty.

In the Pats' case, you got docked a bunch of money and were stripped of a high draft pick...so you must have done something *really* wrong (or so the non-Pats fans' logic goes). A non-Pats fan isn't going to dive into the details, and realize that something else (i.e. league agenda and PR, for lack of a better term) beyond the actual "crime" is factoring heavily into this punishment.

Take Dunta Robinson's $40K fine in 2010. There was nothing particularly unique about Robinson's hit, that sets it apart from countless other ugly-looking hits in previous years and decades (most observers agreed that Robinson's hit was by far the least egregious of the infamous trio of penalized hits that day). Robinson simply picked the wrong time to do it, on a day when the NFL abruptly and dramatically changed the fine and suspension structure, and in the midst of a coordinated league push for an 18-game schedule. But if you were another team's fan looking only at the fine itself, you'd likely assume he'd made a *historically* vicious hit...and maybe was a historically dirty player to boot.

That's just the way it is nowadays. You can't just look at a penalty, and accurately deduce the true severity of the underlying "crime". Nowadays, the league and Goodell inflate penalties (sometimes, dramatically so) by baking in their own message and agenda into every punishment. Worse still, since there's almost no transparency given to the reasoning behind their punishments, it's easy for a casual observer to completely miss what's been added by the league for its own purposes. This is a shame; in addition to doling out punishments, the league is effectively villainizing the parties it punishes. And while this is arguably deserved in some cases, in many cases it may not be...and it's almost never the black-and-white issue the league would have you believe.

All of which of course leads back to the very problem you brought up in your post: i.e. a casual non-Pats fan saying, "the Pats got a big penalty; therefore Spygate must have been *really* bad...I'll bet that's the reason they won all those championships!"

 

[ausbacker]

So what you're saying is....... Its about money.
Perhaps you meant its less about the cost of the lawsuits, and more about revenue lost by damaging the product ie., looking bad to the public or being without marquee names due to injury?
I believe the OP touched on that as well though

No, that's not what I said. I made it abundantly clear what my position was.

The initial, major escalation in the fine and suspension structure in 2010 wasn't based on actual rules changes; the league actually went out of its way to say that it was simply enforcing rules already in existence. Why the abrupt, dramatic emphasis? I believe (and as other posters have suggested on this thread) that this is because the league knew they had to shore up their position on player safety in a very public way, in order to their aggressive push for the 18 game season that year.

BTW I'm not saying that Goodell or his NFL colleagues are terrible people, or that they're exclusively about dollars and cents. But the NFL is a big business, and IMHO it would be naive to think that financial considerations are n't always at or near the forefront of their minds. If the NFL were a publicly owned company, and I were a major shareholder, I would probably be pushing Goodell to take exactly the sort of actions he's been taking, because the player safety issue is a legitimate threat to the league.

So I disagree with your point--I think the recent rules changes--and in particular, the *timing* of the recent rules changes--outlawing certain types of contact are absolutely and fundamentally about financial issues. That's not to say these changes shouldn't be made--no one wants players dying or suffering due to head trauma, including Goodell (who's not an ogre)--but the reality is that this sort of thing has been going on for a long, long time. One of our own all-time Steelers greats, Mike Webster, suffered dementia and depression, likely due to brain damage...and he played in the 70s. He's hardly the only example. It strains credulity to suggest that not a single member of the NFL business has been able to put 2 and 2 together until now.

The NFL starting handing out severe fines and punishment well before 2010. Conversely, Goodell's agenda items have taken place in conjunction with an escalation of punishments.

In a sense of the manner, all you've done is repeat what I've said; the NFL moved (and moved publicly as you pointed out) to protect its brand.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I agree re/ Spygate. My guess is that other teams did this; but the Pats were the only ones caught. Again, Goodell's penalty severity was assigned not based on the "merits" of the underlying infraction (Goodell's not stupid--I've got to believe that at a minimum, he had strong suspicions that the Pats weren't unique here, and I'm sure he believed that any advantage gleaned from the taping was marginal at best). Rather, the severity was assigned based on potential PR damage to the league.

Goodell and the league may fully understand how misinformed and misguided mob/public perception can be, but they'll still go to great lengths to cater to it. With Spygate, they feared that the public perception of an uneven playing field and illegitimate championships would spread like wildfire. Their response was proportional to the threat of that public perception evolving, rather than the damage done by the actual underlying act. Ultimately I think that's the main reason you guys got the penalty you did.

Actually what got Goodell really mad about Spygate was that Belichick tried to out lawyer the league's top lawyer - Goodell.

Goodell's 2006 memo specifically stated that sideline taping was prohibited for the use "on gameday."

Belichick never used tapes for gameday. He used them for post game analysis to get ready for the next matchup with that team to learn more about a team's play calling tendencies. It defies logic to think that he could film a signal, decipher it, determine how that deciphered code worked into game planning, adjust his play calling accordingly, all during halftime.

So Belichick probably figured, that given all that, he could simply take Goodell at his badly worded rule and be relatively safe if and when he was called on it.

Goodell, for his part, wasn't going to let a football coach out lawyer the league's top lawyer - him - and handed down a highly punitive decision to teach Belichick a lesson.

Unfortunately he also didn't see the point of trying to convinced the "shocked" clueless fans and even more clueless non-football fan public that signal filming had been going on since the 1950s and was the norm. He much preferred to let clueless fans think that signal stealing was rare and uncommon because he felt admitting the truth would undermine perceptions of the game.

So he just allowed the perception that Belichick was the exception and not the rule remain - and the high punishment he handed down to Belichick for mocking the commissioner exacerbated that perception.

Goodell knew that most fans weren't smart enough to ask why coordinators routinely cover their mouths when calling in plays - as they continue to do today, raising the point that signal stealing and filming continues today, as it's still allowed under the rules.

Was Belichick wrong to mock Goodell by taking his rule literally? Probably - but we have also seen Belichick continue to mock Goodell's injury reporting policy as it puts his players at risk and puts him at a strategic disadvantage by telling other teams where his players are weak and vulnerable. Belichick has been repeatedly reprimanded for that but hasn't really changed

On that issue Belichick has been provien right and Goodell must be hoping that fans don't notice that his own injury reporting policies and fines for coaches who refuse to put their players at risk were a factor in Bountygate.

My guess is that little nugget of info won't escape the lawyers considering a concussion lawsuit against the league though.

 

[Off The Grid]

I think you give that Sewage FAR more credit than he deserves.

It was only BECAUSE that vile, despicable SCUM imposed such a LUDICROUS penalty, that the vast majority of authority-figure-worshiping morons deduced that we MUST have done something awful, otherwise why would good old Roger the Sewage ~ GOD, I hope he DIAF's!! ~ impose such an harsh penalty???

Had the penalty been FAIR ~ proportionate ~ it would've been a 3rd day Pick at MOST, seeing's how that's what teams get hit with when they're caught Tampering.

What a lump of greasy SEWAGE Goodell is.

Great Thread, by the way!!

LOL, it's crazy to say this on a Pats board, but here goes: I think you could legitimately go out and share a beer with James Harrison on this issue. (Technically, Harrison never said he wanted Goodell to DIAF...but he is on record saying if Goodell were *already* on fire, that he wouldn't piss on him to put it out).

In all seriousness though, you make a good point--but I would add that this isn't applicable only to Pats fans and Spygate. Basically, you can't simply look at fines and punishments levied by Goodell in today's NFL and determine the actual severity of the underlying crime, because the underlying act is only a modest part of the calculus used to determine the penalty.

It doesn't really matter what Goodell's rationale is.

Not to me.

If it's not based on Justice ~ and Justice clearly had nothing to do with his motivations behind SpyGate, REGARDLESS of what those motivations were ~ then I don't give a rat's @$$ what his motivations were.

He STOLE from us.

And he stole such a big CHUNK from us that it probably cost us Championships.

And he STOLE from us because we committed a MISDEMEANOR, one that MANY teams were committing, including the vile SCUM who ratted on us, even after we didn't rat on THEM.

For what at MOST was a 7th Rounder level infraction, he stole a FIRST Rounder.

I don't care if he did it because he had a tantrum, or because he's too stupid to realize that creating doubt about the legitimacy of our Championships in the minds of millions of morons actually HURT the brand, or simply because he's a Jets fan.

He is SCUM.

He is lying, cheating, sanctimonious, despicable, filthy, disgusting SCUM.

Other'n that, I have no strong feelings on the subject.

I just became an ENORMOUS James Harrison fan, by the way!!

Seriously: I DO really enjoy reading your posts, Brother Lloyd.

But I am incapable of Empathy or other considerations, where Goodell is concerned.

 

[ausbacker]

It doesn't really matter what Goodell's rationale is.

Not to me.

If it's not based on Justice ~ and Justice clearly had nothing to do with his motivations behind SpyGate, REGARDLESS of what those motivations were ~ then I don't give a rat's @$$ what his motivations were.

He STOLE from us.

And he stole such a big CHUNK from us that it probably cost us Championships.

And he STOLE from us because we committed a MISDEMEANOR, one that MANY teams were committing, including the vile SCUM who ratted on us, even after we didn't rat on THEM.

For what at MOST was a 7th Rounder level infraction, he stole a FIRST Rounder.

I don't care if he did it because he had a tantrum, or because he's too stupid to realize that creating doubt about the legitimacy of our Championships in the minds of millions of morons actually HURT the brand, or simply because he's a Jets fan.

He is SCUM.

He is lying, cheating, sanctimonious, despicable, filthy, disgusting SCUM.

Other'n that, I have no strong feelings on the subject.

I just became an ENORMOUS James Harrison fan, by the way!!

Seriously: I DO really enjoy reading your posts, Brother Lloyd.

But I am incapable of Empathy or other considerations, where Goodell is concerned.

OTG, I generally enjoy your special brand of posting but think from an administrator's position rather than a fan's perspective when evaluating the decisions Goodell and his cronies make. We don't have to agree (and I largely don't) with the changes in the game nor the punishments handed out (and yes Spygate was overblown) but there's generally obvious and not so obvious reasons to the decisions and actions taken by those at the top.

 

[Joker]

yes...see Roger the Great show that despicable Bill Belichick what happens when you fool around with one of Lord High Omish's edicts!!

yes, tear those violent men down there in N.O. a new azzole for urging their players to smash the opposition...rip their team apart!!!

go Roger the Great...tear that Pac Man Jones apart and ruin his career...way to show everybody who's boss!!



Roger Goodell Has Reviewed Roger Goodell’s Decision On Terrelle Pryor And Ruled In Roger Goodell’s Favor..you tell 'em Rog!!!!

Roger Goodell makes like little Nancy Ants-in-her-pants and cringes like an embarrassed parent as the wild, run amok,******ed rhinoceroid known as Wrecks Cryan tears a swath of deviance, debauchery,outright sanctioned in game tripping,profanities and a torrent of empty big mouthed boasts and bragging on a nearly daily basis, giving the league a huge black eye the world over and reinforcing the "Ugly American" stereotype for the next fifty years.

oh wait!....how'd that last one get in here....????

 

[ausbacker]

I thank you for your kind words, Brother Backer.

But ~ and this IS respectfully submitted ~ I have an hard time believing you actually read my post, considering that it already addressed every word of your response to it:

I read your post, all of it (generally because they're entertaining). I just don't agree that so much hatred and angst needs to be directed toward Goodell. I certainly agree that he makes many questionable judgements and I'm not a huge fan of the level of financial punishment, the stripping of draft picks etc, but it's the easiest way to demonstrate ownership publicly. It always has been and it always will be.

Have a look at some of the posts towards Bountygate here. People complain about other teams hanging on the Patriots for Spygate yet routinely chastize the Saints for Bountygate. Basically, we all want to see others punished but we don't want to cop our own serving of medicine. (Different level of "issue" I understand, the premise is the same).

The underlying point for me is I'm just not that fussed anymore. The Patriots made a mistake, were punished (and probably unfairly) and you move on. I can rationalize why Goodell did it (I don't like it) and I can rationalize why he's moving in the direction that he is (that doesn't mean I have to agree with it).

I find too many people are willing to criticise rather than offer their own course of action with administrators. That's not confined to the NFL, we're experiencing the same thing in Australia with our CEO, Andrew Demetriou in the AFL. The game is in a magnificent state, more people are watching, dollars are coming through yet people still complain and pine for the old days. I remember the old days vividly, they were **** compared to now.

People are never pleased it seems.

 

[Off The Grid]

OTG, I generally enjoy your special brand of posting but think from an administrator's position rather than a fan's perspective when evaluating the decisions Goodell and his cronies make.

We don't have to agree (and I largely don't) with the changes in the game nor the punishments handed out (and yes Spygate was overblown) but there's generally obvious and not so obvious reasons to the decisions and actions taken by those at the top.

I thank you for your kind words, Brother Backer.

But don't presume to tell me how to think.

I never do that to anyone. Let's see if you can manage that same fundamental courtesy.

And I have an hard time believing you actually read my post, considering that it already addressed every word of your response to it:

It doesn't really matter what Goodell's rationale is.

Not to me.

If it's not based on Justice ~ and Justice clearly had nothing to do with his motivations behind SpyGate, REGARDLESS of what those motivations were ~ then I don't give a rat's @$$ what his motivations were.

He STOLE from us.

And he stole such a big CHUNK from us that it probably cost us Championships.

And he STOLE from us because we committed a MISDEMEANOR, one that MANY teams were committing, including the vile SCUM who ratted on us, even after we didn't rat on THEM.

For what at MOST was a 7th Rounder level infraction, he stole a FIRST Rounder.

I don't care if he did it because he had a tantrum, or because he's too stupid to realize that creating doubt about the legitimacy of our Championships in the minds of millions of morons actually HURT "The Brand", or simply because he's a Jets fan.

He is SCUM.

He is lying, cheating, sanctimonious, despicable, filthy, disgusting SCUM.

Other'n that, I have no strong feelings on the subject.

Forgive me if I don't give a rat's @$$ about the "administrator's position."

And even if I did...

Based, alone, on the damage that this idiot unilaterally did to "The Brand", he should be fired.

 

[ausbacker]

I thank you for your kind words, Brother Backer.

But don't presume to tell me how to think.

I never do that to anyone. Let's see if you can manage that same fundamental courtesy.

And I have an hard time believing you actually read my post, considering that it already addressed every word of your response to it:

Forgive me if I don't give a rat's @$$ about the "administrator's position."

And even if I did...

Based, alone, on the damage that this idiot unilaterally did to "The Brand", he should be fired.

Divergent opinions are welcomed. I addressed your post above for your reading as it were.

 

[Off The Grid]

My Apologies for anyone's confusion resulting from my actions: I Reposted.

Have a look at some of the posts towards Bountygate here. People complain about other teams hanging on the Patriots for Spygate yet routinely chastize the Saints for Bountygate.

Basically, we all want to see others punished but we don't want to cop our own serving of medicine.

Please, Aus.

You've GOT to be kidding, here.

Are you SERIOUSLY comparing a technical violation ~ an unhidden and uniformed Cameraman on the SideLine whose videos afforded ZERO competitive advantage ~ to a coordinated conspiracy to incentivize players to BASH HEADS, break bones, and potentially CRIPPLE people, for the express purpose of paving the way to 3 Super Bowls, one of which they actually reached and won???

Are you SERIOUSLY placing those two in the same BALLPARK??

The underlying point for me is I'm just not that fussed anymore.

The Patriots made a mistake, were punished (and probably unfairly) and you move on.

"Moving On" is ONE thing.

But criticizing me for getting angry when it's brought up is GARBAGE.

No TRUE Patriots fan FAILS to feel The Rage whenever this comes up.

If you think you don't, then you're either not a REAL fan, and are just along for the ride because we're winning...or you're just kidding yourself.

Goodell RAPED us, and then scolded us publicly, essentially saying that "We Asked For It".

You don't think that DeSean Jackson, Matt Forte, or Ray Rice, added to this team with #32 in 2008, would've made the difference that would've let us win it all in 2010 AND 2011??

Maybe that horrific reality is so unspeakable to you that you're in Denial about the whole thing, preferring to believe that we deserved it, because facing up to your Rage ~ and the fact that there's nothing we can do to make it right ~ is more than you dare to cope with.

I don't know.

And I don't care.

If you have to go into denial to deal with this reality, I perfectly understand.

But if you're not passionate about this magnificent team, I feel sorry for you.

And please note: I didn't initiate this exchange by lecturing YOUR emotional level. :snob:

In any case: feel free to SPARE ME the smug, condescending "I've Moved On. Why don't you?" load.

 

[The Gr8est]

My Apologies for anyone's confusion resulting from my actions: I Reposted.



Please, Aus.

You've GOT to be kidding, here.

Are you SERIOUSLY comparing a technical violation ~ an unhidden and uniformed Cameraman on the SideLine whose videos afforded ZERO competitive advantage ~ to a coordinated conspiracy to incentivize players to BASH HEADS, break bones, and potentially CRIPPLE people, for the express purpose of paving the way to 3 Super Bowls, one of which they actually reached and won???

Are you SERIOUSLY placing those two in the same BALLPARK??



"Moving On" is ONE thing.

But criticizing me for getting angry when it's brought up is GARBAGE.

No TRUE Patriots fan FAILS to feel The Rage whenever this comes up.

If you think you don't, then you're either not a REAL fan, and are just along for the ride because we're winning...or you're just kidding yourself.

Goodell RAPED us, and then scolded us publicly, essentially saying that "We Asked For It".

You don't think that DeSean Jackson, Matt Forte, or Ray Rice, added to this team with #32 in 2008, would've made the difference that would've let us win it all in 2010 AND 2011??

Maybe that horrific reality is so unspeakable to you that you're in Denial about the whole thing, preferring to believe that we deserved it, because facing up to your Rage ~ and the fact that there's nothing we can do to make it right ~ is more than you dare to cope with.

I don't know.

And I don't care.

If you have to go into denial to deal with this reality, I perfectly understand.

But if you're not passionate about this magnificent team, I feel sorry for you.

And please note: I didn't initiate this exchange by lecturing YOUR emotional level. :snob:

In any case: feel free to SPARE ME the smug, condescending "I've Moved On. Why don't you?" load.

I agree with most of this post, and certainly wholeheartedly agree with the heartfelt lothing of the Omissioner.

I just have a small quibble which may, in the end, be a distinction without a difference; I suspect that rather than picking a player with that stolen 1st round choice, BB was more likely to invest it in the "Golden Goose Diversified Fund", which would have provided multiple players, rather than just one, but would still have possibly meant the difference of another championship or two.

 

[ausbacker]

My Apologies for anyone's confusion resulting from my actions: I Reposted.

Please, Aus.

You've GOT to be kidding, here.

It seems one of us is rather irrational when the topic of Roger Goodell is approached.

Are you SERIOUSLY comparing a technical violation ~ an unhidden and uniformed Cameraman on the SideLine whose videos afforded ZERO competitive advantage ~ to a coordinated conspiracy to incentivize players to BASH HEADS, break bones, and potentially CRIPPLE people, for the express purpose of paving the way to 3 Super Bowls, one of which they actually reached and won???

You asked me to extend you the courtesy of reading your response properly. I read it properly the first time. Clearly, you did not read my response and have allowed your zealous rage for Goodell to overcome you.

1. I have not proposed that Spygate and Bountygate are the same.
2. I have not proposed that the punishment for Spygate was appropriate and in fact agreed it was excessive.

Are you SERIOUSLY placing those two in the same BALLPARK??

No, I'm not.

"Moving On" is ONE thing.

But criticizing me for getting angry when it's brought up is GARBAGE.

I'm not criticizing you. Once again, you've misinterpreted general comment as a personal attack.

No TRUE Patriots fan FAILS to feel The Rage whenever this comes up.

When did you become the judge for what is considered a true Patriots fan? How many 1, 2, and 4 AM games have you woken up to when the Patriots are playing on international television? How many NFL Rules and Formation books have you bought and researched to self teach yourself to gain a greater understanding of a game you happened to pass upon and took an interest in despite no connection to your native country? I've done all of these plus more and I don't think that makes me any more committed than any other fan who follows the Patriots. It just makes me a fan. Nothing more nothing less.

If you think you don't, then you're either not a REAL fan, and are just along for the ride because we're winning...or you're just kidding yourself.

It appears that my lack of outrage and want to move on from Spygate makes me less a fan of the Patriots than that does you. Bit of a sad contention really, I wouldn't have thought you'd propose this.

Goodell RAPED us, and then scolded us publicly, essentially saying that "We Asked For It".

Goodell did hand out harsh punishment (it was ridiculous). I have agreed with this point.

You don't think that DeSean Jackson, Matt Forte, or Ray Rice, added to this team with #32 in 2008, would've made the difference that would've let us win it all in 2010 AND 2011??

They probably would have. In fact, they probably should have. The fact is, I'm not going to continually cry over revisionist history and pain myself with what could have been.

Maybe that horrific reality is so unspeakable to you that you're in Denial about the whole thing, preferring to believe that we deserved it, because facing up to your Rage ~ and the fact that there's nothing we can do to make it right ~ is more than you dare to cope with.

I don't know.

And I don't care.

If you have to go into denial to deal with this reality, I perfectly understand.

Not really, I was outraged at the time given the circus that surrounded Spygate, the implications on the Patriots and the implications on Bill Belichick and his staff. The news of the NFL investigators spending time with the Patriots coaching staff pre-Superbowl 42 pissed me off no end. As time has come to pass, I don't give it that much thought because nothing I think now is going to change any of the events that occurred 4 years ago.

But if you're not passionate about this magnificent team, I feel sorry for you.

I'm very passionate about the Patriots. In fact, I love the Patriots dearly.

And please note: I didn't initiate this exchange by lecturing YOUR emotional level. :snob:

In any case: feel free to SPARE ME the smug, condescending "I've Moved On. Why don't you?" load.

It appears that your investment level in the Patriots is far beyond mine. There's really only one issue here, I've moved on from Spygate and you still hold a grudge. If you're going to allow that cloud your judgement of everything Goodell does, then I'd love to hear your analysis of the entirety of Paul Tagliabue's reign.

And OTG, there's no issue on my behalf. We're having a discussion from opposing points of view on a singular matter. I never allow that to fully affect the opinions I have on the quality of work put forward by any poster.

 

[Off The Grid]

It seems one of us is rather irrational when the topic of Roger Goodell is approached.

That's an interesting snide comment. Proof??

I won't be holding my breath.

Apparently, when you get called out, you start the personal attacks. Noted.

You asked me to extend you the courtesy of reading your response properly. I read it properly the first time.

Evidently not.

I'm not criticizing you. Once again, you've misinterpreted general comment as a personal attack.

When someone quotes me, I tend to think they're responding to me.

I'm funny like that.

The fact is, I'm not going to continually cry over revisionist history and pain myself with what could have been.

More personal attacks.

Evidently, you do cry, or you wouldn't've projected that act to me.

Crying is evidence of Grief, not Rage.

This exchange is deteriorating rapidly, my friend.

I think I'll just walk away from it. Peace.

 

[ausbacker]

That's an interesting snide comment. Proof??

I won't be holding my breath.

Apparently, when you get called out, you start the personal attacks. Noted.


Evidently not.


When someone quotes me, I tend to think they're responding to me.

I'm funny like that.

More personal attacks.

Evidently, you do cry, or you wouldn't've projected that act to me.

Crying is evidence of Grief, not Rage.

This exchange is deteriorating rapidly, my friend.

I think I'll just walk away from it. Peace.

At no point in this post have you offered anything coherent or of substance. Good night Grid, hopefully you will have come to your senses tomorrow.

 

[goheels22002]

Excellent off-season thread, gentlemen and ladies.

Goodell's a tough Commissioner which the NFL needs as it confronts some tough issues under the brightest spot light in US professional sports. The question of whether intentionally injurying a fellow player, especially in light of the concussion lawsuit, is an issue bigger than Goodell and even the NFL. A court case on this question has huge implications for professional hockey and baseball as well.

I thought Spygate should have been handled behind closed doors, but Eric Mangini dictated that it would be a very public affair. The penalty seemed proportionate to the offense - a 1st-round draft pick (the money was unimportant to the team's competitiveness.) The long-term damage to the Patriots (or Cheatriots, as some of my out-of-town friends call them) was done by Mangini when he chose to publicly go to the NFL. That could have been done quietly, by the owner to the Commissioner who could have told Bob Kraft to get his guy to knock it off. The Commissioner showed restraint by burying the tapes.

I think he handles the drug use really well and the off-field thuggery (Ben Roethlisberger, the Cincinnati Bengals, etc.) pretty well. Goodell embarrasses those guys, suspends them and reminds them where they work and who is boss.

The New Orleans thing is a different kettle of fish. Nailing the coaches and the team for team infractions make perfect sense. It's like OSHA violations. Dangerous workplace practices merit fines and remedies. Coal mine owners get nailed and licenses pulled. Management who put the workers at risk get fired.

The union employee suspensions do not. I do not like Jonathan Vilma, but he has a very legitimate legal case to demand evidence and force the NFL's hand in court. Suspensions are huge fines, in essence, and a game suspension is a very different matter if you are Peyton Manning or if you are the rookie special teamer - millions of dollars of difference.

I thought Goodell should have met with the player, the team and the union to present his evidence, ask his questions and ask for recommendations on player suspensions or outright fines like they did with head-to-head hits at first. The union bought in because they have an interest in player safety. He could rule, the union could appeal through the NLRB if they want to, and there'd be a sense of due process.

That did not happen with the New Orleans players.

Goodell is a lawyer and a smart guy. He probably wants the courts to get involved. The problem is that the courts should not be determining the extent of his powers as Commissioner, which is what could be the result.