Are the 2012 Patriots team more talented than the 2007 Pats?

[AzPatsFan]

That defense at the start of the season? Maybe it was top 5. But by the end - Harrison, Vrabel, Bruschi, Seau (RIP), were all on the very end of the back 9 of their careers. Losing Colvin is an underrated blow as well.

The Cassel year shows the trend that defense was taking, and it started in 2007, but was hidden by the explosive offense at times.

Y'all give way too much credit to the 07 Defense. Ys it had hallowed names. But if you remeber it blew a 20 point lead inthe 06 AFCCG. A surefire way ot measurre a Defesne is to look at turnovers. Older slower teams gradually have their turnovers decline, despite more experience. Young speedy Defenses have high turnver ratios,as young fast players can make the occasional talent revealing play.

The last two Patriots defenses had very high turnver numbers. In 2010 they had only 31 sacks. In 2011 they produced just over 40, which for a Read and react Defesne is phenomenal, and the equal of any 21st century Pats D. Plus you forget that, 5, five, the number after 4, starting secondary players were removed in the 2011 season for mostly injury reasons. We get two or three back, and drafted two more in Tavon and Alfonzo, and signed another ex-starter in FA.


Even so, that Defense ended up in the top half of the league in Points Allowed. I predict it will spring forward this season. Finally, after 4 years of rebuilding, there is good depth everywhere on D, including LBs and pass rushers.

 

[BradyFTW!]

RIght, but by the end of the year, you're missing Colvin - huge piece. You got Vrabel basically being a ghost in the Super Bowl. Harrison just not strong enough on the Tyree play. Bruschi just missing on a 4th and 1 play.

These guys were just a little too old and a little too gassed as of February 2008, which is, unfortunately, what matters most when evaluating that defense.

I agree - for the first half of that season, that defense was a beast and part of the reason why we just rolled over everyone. Adalius was also playing at a very high level for that whole season really.

True, but comparing the end of 2007 to the beginning of 2012 doesn't make much sense. By the end of this season, the Patriots will be similarly diminished by injuries. Remember, going into last season we were all pumped about how Bodden, Barrett and Ty Warren were going to add a whole new dimension to the Patriots' defense.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Y'all give way too much credit to the 07 Defense. Ys it had hallowed names. But if you remeber it blew a 20 point lead inthe 06 AFCCG. A surefire way ot measurre a Defesne is to look at turnovers. Older slower teams gradually have their turnovers decline, despite more experience. Young speedy Defenses have high turnver ratios,as young fast players can make the occasional talent revealing play.

The last two Patriots defenses had very high turnver numbers. In 2010 they had only 31 sacks. In 2011 they produced just over 40, which for a Read and react Defesne is phenomenal, and the equal of any 21st century Pats D. Plus you forget that, 5, five, the number after 4, starting secondary players were removed in the 2011 season for mostly injury reasons. We get two or three back, and drafted two more in Tavon and Alfonzo, and signed another ex-starter in FA.


Even so, that Defense ended up in the top half of the league in Points Allowed. I predict it will spring forward this season. Finally, after 4 years of rebuilding, there is good depth everywhere on D, including LBs and pass rushers.

Pretty much the entire uptick in sacks came from Andre Carter and Mark Anderson, which isn't quite consistent with your "youth = better" point.

 

[patsfan13]

Well the D has a young core with experience, questions at all levels due to experience, but a LOT of talent and Upside. I felt the D would be imporved before the draft if some of the draftees can fill roles with the team it could be much better than last year and a top 5 scoring d.

The o may set the all time scoring record.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Definitely not. The only thing about this team that's better is Gronknandez. The '07 Pats had much better receivers in Moss/Welker/Stallworth/Gaffney. O-line is probably a push, but that one was more experienced. On defense, the '07 team had a corps that had won 3 Super Bowls, and while older, were still championship-caliber. This defense could rank anywhere from 1 to 32 and no one would really be surprised.

Also, Kevin Faulk in '07 was a great third-down back. If Woodhead can regain his form, then this team will be very difficult on third down, but otherwise, that is an area of weakness relative to '07.

 

[goheels22002]

The offense is better in my estimation due to what you wrote plus the importance of bringing in two guys who will compete for a critically important Fullback position.

Tony Fiammetta and Spencer Larsen are two experienced blocking fullbacks. Neither will carry the ball much. Both can lead block and both are good at picking up a blitz.

The offense needed that guy who could pick up blitzers and give Brady time in the passing game, and lead-block for the RBs. A compact FB was a crucial missing piece in 2007 and last year as well. One of these guys will make the team and be a big part of the blocking scheme.

I think this offense is frightening to defend against. With Lloyd and Welker in the seams, CBs and safeties can't take the risk of crowding the box and blitzing lest they get torched by Gaffney, Branch, or Ochocinco/Stallworth.

Linebackers will have to account for the TEs and whatever is coming out of the backfield.

Basically, defenses will have to leave the front four to defend the running game against a good to great line and now the fullback who will help out.

If you blitz, Brady will pick you apart with that receiving group. If you stay home, you have safeties and linebackers trying to account for Welker and the tight ends. This will be like last year - The Pats score 28 to 30 and the other guys have to try and keep up.

 

[IllegalContact]

That defense at the start of the season? Maybe it was top 5. But by the end - Harrison, Vrabel, Bruschi, Seau (RIP), were all on the very end of the back 9 of their careers. Losing Colvin is an underrated blow as well.

The Cassel year shows the trend that defense was taking, and it started in 2007, but was hidden by the explosive offense at times.

LOL......the 2007 defense is 10x better than the pats defense now. it allowed 300 yards passing to one team all year. 2007 ty warren and 2007 richard seymour were 10x better than anyone the pats have.......vrabel and thomas were 10x better than anyone the pats have

sorry....you're making a horrible argument

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

If the OL holds up, I would take the '12 offensive lineup over '07 anyday. Far more weapons.

If we're talking about teams overall, I'd go with '07. Studly DL, and a legit #1 CB. Less ??'s in the secondary. And as alluded to earlier, the OL play was amazing that year. Still remains to be seen if Vollmer returns to pre-injury form or if Solder is ready to be a full time T.

 

[PatsDeb]

On paper, the offense certainly is but paper doesn't win you games.

Defense? No way.

I have a sick feeling though that we're going to experience a major injury this year. Maybe it's because of what happened the last time we lost a SB to NYG...

Good God man! No jinx, no jinx, no jinx!!!!

 

[Don Kipines]

I think on paper the 2012 team looks very close to the 2007 team.

Remember that the 2011 team wasn't that far from the 2007 team offensively. They scored 32.1 PPG versus 36.8 PPG in 2007. Brady had 39 touchdowns versus 50, and he threw for more yards last year than in 2007.

The major difference is that there's no Randy Moss on this team. But ask yourself: would you rather have Moss, Welker, Gaffney, and Ben Watson, or Lloyd, Welker, Hernandez and Gronkowski? There are four dynamic pass-catchers on our current squad versus two in 2007, and I'm also not sure that Gronk's future as a TD-maker isn't up there with Moss in his prime.
Gronk is an ascending talent and it's not crazy to imagine he'll have a 20 TD season someday.

The offensive line talent on the current team is at least equal to the 2007 team, with a major upgrade at right tackle. The backs will almost certainly be better than the backs on the 2007 team -- Sammy Morris was really the best runner on that team, and the speed out of the backfield wasn't close to what they should have this year. Otherwise, the tight ends are far better, the WRs a bit worse, and Brady this year is older.

Where the rubber meets the road here will be on defense. If the Pats can turn the ball over and get a few more possessions, they can challenge the 2007 squad. Obviously it's far more likely that they won't challenge that team's output, but on paper, it definitely looks possible.

 

[condon84]

 

[BradyManny]

True, but comparing the end of 2007 to the beginning of 2012 doesn't make much sense. By the end of this season, the Patriots will be similarly diminished by injuries. Remember, going into last season we were all pumped about how Bodden, Barrett and Ty Warren were going to add a whole new dimension to the Patriots' defense.

Very good points, hard to argue there.

 

[BradyManny]

The '07 Pats had much better receivers in Moss/Welker/Stallworth/Gaffney.

3 out of 4 of those guys are back on the squad this year - and Moss is replaced by an admittedly less deadly, albeit productive, wide receiver. So I don't know how you can say much better. If Belichick opts to keep more pure WRs, the depth beyond that group will get much better with one or two of Branch/Gonzalez/Edelman/Ocho.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I am hoping the Pats overcome the Super Bowl loser jinx that has been going on for 40+ years now.

 

[Don Kipines]

3 out of 4 of those guys are back on the squad this year - and Moss is replaced by an admittedly less deadly, albeit productive, wide receiver. So I don't know how you can say much better. If Belichick opts to keep more pure WRs, the depth beyond that group will get much better with one or two of Branch/Gonzalez/Edelman/Ocho.

Right, the "much better" is basically the difference between Lloyd and Moss. That's a big difference -- a historically great, physically dominant wideout in his prime versus an overachieving journeyman with average measurables. But the difference between Watson/Brady and Gronkowski/Hernandez is just as big.

The 2011 team was one of the best offensive teams ever with literally nobody to throw to on the outside. We bring that team back, virtually intact, and add two very solid outside receivers in Lloyd and Gaffney.

However you look at it, they're going to be fun to watch.

 

[YearbookCurfew]

Too soon to tell. My first reaction is no. Only time will tell!

 

[andrewgarrr]

Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Bruschi, Vrabel, Seau, Thomas, Samuel, Wilson, Sanders, Meriweather

LoL

 

[patsinthesnow]

The 2012 Pats are more talented on offense than the 2007 Pats.

People are saying stuff like, "haha the 12 defense will never be close to the 07 defense, no way harharhar"

-07 blows 12 out of the water in the DL department. Seymour-Wilfork-Warren...I do think Deaderick can become as good as Warren but the line still isn't even close to the starters or depth of 2007.

-It would be a tough choice between the old man stud LB core (Thomas, Bruschi, Seau, Vrabel, Colvin) and the young stud LB core (Hightower, Spikes, Mayo, Ninkovich). Wash IMO

-2007 CBs: Samuel, Hobbs, Gay, Spann.
2012 CBs: Mccourty, Arrington, Dowling, Moore, Dennard

IMO, 2012 is deeper and arguably better. (Arrington or Dowling would be the #2 CB on 2007, and if Mccourty can regain his dominance, than he's better than Samuel, add that Moore/Dennard are young talents)

07 is better in the safety department, but featured a 34 year old Rodney, rookie bangclock, young Sanders, and Wilson, it was nothing great.
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And if you want that logic Andrewgarr

Wilfork, Mayo, Spikes, Ninkovich, Arrington, Dowling, Hightower, Chung, Mccourty, Jones, Deaderick, Moore

LoL

 

[stcjones]

time will tell......

Hear me out here. The Pats offense has been building up to juggernaut status for a while now. 30+ ppg is routine for this offense. Not only is Gronk coming off a record setting year, but the Pats added new weapons and old with the additons of Brandon Lloyd, Stallworth, and Gaffney. I think we are poised to see an explosion in 2012.

Let's compare the rosters:

2012 Offense (roster):
QB Brady - coming off a 5,000 yard passing season in 2011. Broke Marino's record although Brees set a new one and thus grabbed the headlines.

OL - Solder. More athletic, bigger and longer than Light. Could be a huge upgrade at the LT position. Vollmer. If healthy gives Brady enormous protection at RT. In addition to great size, has the athleticism of an LT. LG and RG. Mankins and Waters. Pro bowl quality players. C Koppen/Connolly. Solid if unspectacular. Overall this unit is very talented from top to bottom and should be able to give Brady the time he needs to pick apart NFL defenses.

WR - Welker, Lloyd, Ochocinco, Branch, Gaffney, Stallworth, Gonzalez. An embarrassment of riches. This group reminds me of the Saints superbowl winning group of receivers. Each one of them can contribute to the offense in their own way. Whoever gets cut from this group ends up with a job on another team. Lloyd and Stalloworth add deep threat elements to the O. Welker is a beast. Nuff said.

TE - Gronkowski, Hernandez, Fells. The Pats are blessed with two of the top 10 tight ends in the NFL. Gronk is a record breaking, defender smashing beast. Hernandez is a matchup nightmare. Fells will provide breathers for our staters.

RB - Ridley, Vereen, Woodhead. Ridley looks to be a starter quality RB with a good mix of power and speed. Vereen has good hands out of the backhead but has not seen much play time yet. Woodhead is a great threat on 3rd downs. His only drawback is lack of size makes pass blocking a challenge for him. The re-addition of fullbacks Fiametta, Kettani suggest to me that the Pats are looking to have more balanced O in 2012 and pound the ball on 3rd/4th and shorts.

2007 Offense (roster):

QB Brady - In this season Brady proved that he wasn't just a game manager but also a gamebreaker at the QB position. His 50 TD record still stands but records are meant to be broken.

OL - Light and Kaczur at bookends. Neal and Mankins at G. Koppen at Center. Light was a solid bookend but Kaczur and Neal don't look as talented as Vollmer and Waters. This group did their job very well in the pass-first attack though as attested by their record breaking results. Neal's lack of health hurt once the playoffs started as the interior broke down against the Giants pass rush unit.

WR - Moss, Welker, Gaffney, Brown, Stallworth. Moss in his prime is a HOF talent. He caught a ridiculous 23 touchdowns in 2007. Welker was Welker although not nearly as much a focus of the offense due to the Randy factor. Randy is a unique talent but I would say overall the Pats receiving group is 'deeper' in 2012.

TE - Watson, Kyle Brady. Watson was quite the athletic tight end but his production on the field and impact never quite matched the numbers he put up in shorts at the combine. I'll take Gronk and company over this group any day.

RB - Laurence Maroney, Kevin Faulk, Sammy Morris. Maroney wasn't asked to do much in a pass first offense, and he didn't. But it was enough to provide a distraction. The oft injured Morris was good, when he wasn't injured. Faulk was a reliable 3rd down option much like Woodhead is for the Pats. Again I have to give the edge to the 2012 unit. Ridley has a higher ceiling than Maroney and he doesn't 'dance' at the line of scrimmage.

And that's just talking about the offense! Overall, the Pats look like they are poised to shake the NFL world in 2012 with a good mix of veteran and youthful talent at nearly every offensive position. Overall the Pats look more talented on offense in 2012 than they did in 2007. Now that is a SCARY thought!

We'll compare the defensive units next. Your comments are welcome on the comparisons made so far!

 

[rookBoston]

-It would be a tough choice between the old man stud LB core (Thomas, Bruschi, Seau, Vrabel, Colvin) and the young stud LB core (Hightower, Spikes, Mayo, Ninkovich). Wash IMO

Woah. That is so not a wash. Let's not get too excited. If we're lucky, the 2014 LB unit will be able to compete with 2007, but 2012 is very much a work in progress.