How will the Front 6 look next season?

[Fencer]

Even though we know better, we're again talking more about the base defense than the nickel and dime packages. So to move away from that: What are you expecting for sub package personnel and schemes?

My questions (and answers) start:

1. Should we expect a 4-2-5 nickel?

Sure.

2. Should we expect Mayo to be one of the 2?

Sure. He never comes off the field if BB can help it.

3. Should we expect the DEs to be chosen from (and probably rotated) among Andre' Carter, Chandler Jones, Jake Bequette, and OLBs?

Who else? (I do expect Carter back with the team.)

4. Should we expect the DTs to be a Wilfork/Fanene/Pryor rotation?

Who else, as long as those guys are healthy?

5. Who should we expect as the stand-up LB(s) other than Mayo?

It's tempting to say Dane Fletcher or a big-nickel safety. But I'll say Hightower, in honor of the pre-draft scouting that praises him for stoning receivers before they make a first down.

6. Should we expect a 4-1-6 nickel?

Yes -- interior pass rush is crucial these days. Also, please note the trouble I had naming a second LB for the 4-2-5.

 

[Marqui]

Maybe I'm being picky but I'm not 100% comfortable with that DT rotation. I think they need another impact player there. And I think Belichick wants one too from the way he went hard after Red Bryant early in FA.

 

[patsfaninpa]

THe 4-2-5 might shape up something like this.

SOLB Hightowerk/Ninko/Bequette
DT Wilfork
DT Deaderick/Fanene
Elephant WOLB A. Carter/Chandler Jones

ILB's
Mayo
Spikes

Secondary
McCourty - Wilson/Gregory - Chung - Arrington - Dowling

 

[Ring 6]

Even though we know better, we're again talking more about the base defense than the nickel and dime packages. So to move away from that: What are you expecting for sub package personnel and schemes?

My questions (and answers) start:

1. Should we expect a 4-2-5 nickel?

Sure.

We have always gone that route, except against teams like Indy where we used 3-3-5 as a base.

2. Should we expect Mayo to be one of the 2?

Sure. He never comes off the field if BB can help it.

3. Should we expect the DEs to be chosen from (and probably rotated) among Andre' Carter, Chandler Jones, Jake Bequette, and OLBs?

Who else? (I do expect Carter back with the team.)

Ton of choices here, although I think Carter is a long shot.
Jones, Bequette, Nink, Hightower, Scott, Cunningham.

4. Should we expect the DTs to be a Wilfork/Fanene/Pryor rotation?

Who else, as long as those guys are healthy?

Hopefully we have additions coming. Fanene is the only guy in this group that is good in this role.

5. Who should we expect as the stand-up LB(s) other than Mayo?

It's tempting to say Dane Fletcher or a big-nickel safety. But I'll say Hightower, in honor of the pre-draft scouting that praises him for stoning receivers before they make a first down.

Nink has played this role too, and Spikes has at times also. Carpenter figures to be considered in this role if he makes the team. I think we are deeper and stronger than ever in this spot.

6. Should we expect a 4-1-6 nickel?

Yes -- interior pass rush is crucial these days. Also, please note the trouble I had naming a second LB for the 4-2-5.

[/QUOTE]

Well we wont rush 3, so a 3-2-6 would just be disguise and the other LB would be blitzing. As I said, I like our sub LBs better than I have in a while.

 

[ay-yo]

1. Should we expect a 4-2-5 nickel?

3. Should we expect the DEs to be chosen from (and probably rotated) among Andre' Carter, Chandler Jones, Jake Bequette, and OLBs?

4. Should we expect the DTs to be a Wilfork/Fanene/Pryor rotation?

5. Who should we expect as the stand-up LB(s) other than Mayo?

6. Should we expect a 4-1-6 nickel?

I envision our nickle w/ 1 Big DL, 3 DE's and 2 LB's. It's a copy cat league. BB decides to somewhat copy what the Gints have been successful with. However he is not comfortable w/ no big bodies in there, so he leaves in 1 Big DL.

Fanene and Wilfork (gotta play more than just the 50% base formation) will be the primary big DL. The DE's will be a rotation of Jones, Nink, Bequette and Scott. The 2 LB's will be Mayo and Hightower.

1. With the personnel I described Nink could easily stand up for a 3-3, or Hightower can put his hand down for a 5-1. Hightower and Nink give that group some flexibility and I expect BB to play around with it.

3. I don't expect Carter back. Shadow roster b/c he wouldn't be ready week 1 anyways.

4. I think UDFA Marcus Forston has a chance to make the roster and crack that rotation. Big time HS recruit who had injuries in college. Kinda similar to Pryor but I think more explosive. Someone to keep an eye on.

5. Hightower most likely. Although we could potentially put Tarp or White (please no) in there and have Hightower w/ his hand on the ground. This is the one are our LB corps is still lacking.

6. If Barrett can stay healthy and looks good.

 

[notex]

On the run - but just wanted to add that that I wouldn't rule out:

deaderick / love / warren / brace

Especially Kyle love - I think he should definitely be in the mix.

 

[VrabelJr]

In the nickel you generally want your LBs to be faster. Mayo is an obvious choice but the spot next to him in the nickel could be Tracy White or Jeff Tarpinian, at least on third downs anyway.

PS: a "4-1-6" nickel is called a dime

 

[Fencer]

In the nickel you generally want your LBs to be faster. Mayo is an obvious choice but the spot next to him in the nickel could be Tracy White or Jeff Tarpinian, at least on third downs anyway.

PS: a "4-1-6" nickel is called a dime

Oopsie on the typo!!

I'm hoping one of the "main" LBs has enough speed/cover ability to stay on the field in sub packages. Otherwise we're talking about Tarpinian or whoever being penciled in for around half of all snaps, which probably is not an ideal outcome.

 

[Fencer]

A couple of the beat writers seem to expect the other LB in sub packages to be a safety, perhaps even Wilson. IIRC, Bedard pretty much said that, and somebody else (or else Bedard in another piece) mentioned Wilson's versatility among CB, S, and LB.

As for the Giants' 3 light DEs scheme -- it takes a fairly special light DE to also be an interior rusher. One or the other pundit seems to think Chandler Jones could do that. I don't know who else would be a good candidate.

I'm thinking that the interior pass rushers are likely to be "big DL", not "little DL".

Edit: Actually, BB sees Jones as an end-of-line player, not interior. Also, he expects to mix odd and even fronts next year.

 

[Fencer]

Highlighting Warren & his value - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Warren evidently played a lot of sub DT last year, in Pryor's (and Wright's) absence.

 

[Ring 6]

Highlighting Warren & his value - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Warren evidently played a lot of sub DT last year, in Pryor's (and Wright's) absence.

Yeah, thats his best role at this stage.

 

[mayoclinic]

Some thoughts from Doug Kyed at NE Patriots Draft on where Hightower might fit:

If you wanted to compare Hightower to a current Patriots defensive player, I’d say he’s a very rich man’s Dane Fletcher. Fletcher can play inside or out, he’s an underrated pass rusher, and he can cover, but struggles in man. Fletcher has also been known to put his hand in the dirt as an interior lineman, but in those situations he’ll typically (always) drop back into coverage. Sounds a lot like our new linebacker.

Those are all fine comparisons, but the one I immediately thought of was an offensive player. Dont’a Hightower can be the Aaron Hernandez of the defense.

Opposing defenses always have to be on edge when Hernandez is on the field, which at this point is nearly every snap. Hernandez can line up out wide as a split end, he can line up in line as a tight end, he can line up as a joker, an H-Back, a fullback, a halfback, in the slot, he can run the ball, catch the ball, run block, and very rarely, pass block. He’s the player that is almost impossible to account for. If the Patriots have three WRs, Gronk and Hernandez on the field, you’d assume a passing play was coming. But since Hernandez can also run the ball out of the backfield, you can never be entirely sure.

With Hightower on the field, similar deception can be employed. Hightower can be used at SILB, WOLB and SOLB in a 3-4, and MLB, SLB and DE in a 4-3 alignment. In nickel and sub packages, he can play linebacker in a zone cover role and he can rush standing up or with his hand down. Since we’ve seen it from Fletcher, I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw Hightower line up at DT at least once as well.

I’m certainly not saying that offenses preparing for Hightower will be like defenses preparing for Hernandez, but it is similar. Offenses won’t know where Hightower is coming from, or whether he’s blitzing at all, dropping back in coverage, setting the edge, etc.

Hightower’s size/speed combo is part of what allows him to have so much versatility. He’s 6-2/265 and ran a 4.68 40 at the combine. His versatility allows the Patriots to throw out a number of different defensive sets and personnel and it allows there to always be an extra experienced blitzer on the field when necessary.

What the Patriots typically employed last season was a hybrid 3-4/4-3. The alignment was Love at the nose, Wilfork and Shaun Ellis/Brandon Deaderick at 5-tech and Andre Carter in an elephant DE/OLB role. Mayo was at WLB/WILB, Spikes at MLB/SILB and Ninkovich at SLB/SOLB. Hightower will likely switch between that Ninkovich role and Spikes role depending on the situation. He could likely also fill that elephant role, but it’s more likely we’ll see Chandler Jones/Jake Bequette fill it.

Who Is Dont’a Hightower’s Player Comp? | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2013 NFL Draft

Some good thoughts. I loved Dane Fletcher's versatility, and the way the Pats used him to "spy" Joe Flacco in the 2010 Ravens game. I was hoping for a big leap from him in 2011, but his thumb injury was a factor. Hightower, Ninkovich and Fletcher are 3 guys with extraordinary versatility, giving BB tremendous flexibility on defense.

The other newcomer who should get lots of playing time will be Jonathan Fanene. He'll slot into Shaun Ellis' position in a hybrid 3-4/4-3 scheme, and also has terrific positional versatility:

Fanene's versatility important to Patriots

 

[mayoclinic]

Bump. The national and local media don't seem to escape from the 3-4 vs. 4-3 conundrum. ESPN's John Clayton considers the "roster competition" between Dont'a Hightower and Brandon Spikes:

Spikes was a second-round pick in 2010. If Bill Belichick keeps the Patriots in a 4-3 defense, then Hightower will battle Spikes for playing time. If both do well, Belichick could switch back to a 3-4 and use both players.

NFL -- Top 10 training camp matchups - ESPN

And Mike Reiss' commentary:

Clayton is in tune with the pulse of New England, as one of the big questions since the Patriots made Hightower the 25th overall selection in the draft is where he fits. If he's an inside linebacker in the 3-4 defense, would he beat out Spikes to play next to Jerod Mayo? Or could he help as an outside linebacker in that alignment, leaving the Spikes/Mayo pairing intact on the inside?

Spikes vs. Hightower on NFL radar - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

I don't think Clayton's in tune at all. Hightower will certainly play some MLB in 4-3 schemes and some SILB in 3-4 schemes. But he will play a much more diverse role than that, whereas Spikes will be essentially a 2-down 4-3 MLB and 3-4 SILB. That won't preclude Hightower from being used in other roles at the same time. And the Pats will use a front 6 much more often than a front 7, where Spikes really doesn't fit. Reiss seems to acknowledge as much:

Bill Belichick noted that Hightower has Mike Vrabel type versatility -- he could be inside, outside, in a two-point stance or a three-point stance.

The other factor to consider is the rising percentage the Patriots are in a sub defense (5 or more defensive backs), which was in the 65-70 percent range in 2011, according to personnel director Nick Caserio. Hightower figures to be part of that mix in some way, as he was at Alabama. That is an area that Spikes, who has been viewed more as an early-down player as a run-stuffer, has not always been called upon.

Maybe Reiss is just trying to be diplomatic and not call his ESPN national colleague a moron.

 

[Fencer]

Good points, MayoClinic.

And by the way, Hightower could do well as a rookie and still "only" take 65% of the snaps -- i.e., the nickel/dime ones.

 

[mayoclinic]

Good points, MayoClinic.

And by the way, Hightower could do well as a rookie and still "only" take 65% of the snaps -- i.e., the nickel/dime ones.

I think Hightower will probably be a "3 down player" fairly soon. He has too much versatility and utility across different schemes. BB will find ways to get him on the field as much as possible. Besides his versatility, I think he'll also provide some leadership and intensity for the defense. But you're right, he could get "eased in" and only play in "nickel" formations and still see the field most of the time as a rookie.

 

[jah]

Some thoughts from Doug Kyed at NE Patriots Draft on where Hightower might fit:



Who Is Dont’a Hightower’s Player Comp? | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2013 NFL Draft

Some good thoughts. I loved Dane Fletcher's versatility, and the way the Pats used him to "spy" Joe Flacco in the 2010 Ravens game. I was hoping for a big leap from him in 2011, but his thumb injury was a factor. Hightower, Ninkovich and Fletcher are 3 guys with extraordinary versatility, giving BB tremendous flexibility on defense.

The other newcomer who should get lots of playing time will be Jonathan Fanene. He'll slot into Shaun Ellis' position in a hybrid 3-4/4-3 scheme, and also has terrific positional versatility:

Fanene's versatility important to Patriots

I'm as big a fan of Fletcher as anyone, but is he really that flexible on defense? I've only seen him play ILB in a 3-4 or MLB in a 4-3. It looks like he just replaces Spikes on passing downs.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm as big a fan of Fletcher as anyone, but is he really that flexible on defense? I've only seen him play ILB in a 3-4 or MLB in a 4-3. It looks like he just replaces Spikes on passing downs.

Agreed. Many people thought that since he was a DE in college he was going to be a 34 OLb, but that has never happened. He really is too small for that spot.
I think he is versatile in the sub, but in the base, not so much.

 

[Ring 6]

I think Hightower will probably be a "3 down player" fairly soon. He has too much versatility and utility across different schemes. BB will find ways to get him on the field as much as possible. Besides his versatility, I think he'll also provide some leadership and intensity for the defense. But you're right, he could get "eased in" and only play in "nickel" formations and still see the field most of the time as a rookie.

Based solely on his skillset there is not a single alignment where he isn't one of our best X number (X beiing how many LBs we use) of LBs.
The real question is how quickly he adapts to making the jump to the NFL.

 

[Fencer]

I think Hightower will probably be a "3 down player" fairly soon. He has too much versatility and utility across different schemes. BB will find ways to get him on the field as much as possible. Besides his versatility, I think he'll also provide some leadership and intensity for the defense. But you're right, he could get "eased in" and only play in "nickel" formations and still see the field most of the time as a rookie.

Pretty much my views.

 

[Fencer]

Based solely on his skillset there is not a single alignment where he isn't one of our best X number (X beiing how many LBs we use) of LBs.
The real question is how quickly he adapts to making the jump to the NFL.

Right.

For once, we agree.