What About the Defense?

[ATippett56]

fanene, scott, and gregory all play defense.

also, there's the draft.

Marquice Cole also plays cornerback.

 

[ATippett56]

Well we could play that game the other way too. The Super Bowl, for example. The Pats led 17-15 until the Giants' final drive. The D had given up only 13 of those points. Great job, right? Bailed out the offense, right? Well, that is, until the Giants shredded them in the last 2 minutes to win the game.

Rob Gronkowski and Logan Mankins played through injuries in the Super Bowl. Dan Koppen was placed on injured reserve early in the 2011 NFL Season. The three aforementioned players have been AFC Pro-Bowlers at one time or another.

 

[Ronin]

I am looking forward to the draft, rest of free agency, cuts from other teams, and the continuity of the young defense to all come together for offseason mini-camps/training camp. Because of the strike prior to last season, Belichick did the best he could during the season to prepare the young defense. I know there are a lot of questions regarding the defense, but with some key additions through the draft and free agency, Belichick is building depth and a quality team to challenge the AFC next year.

 

[supafly]

Well we could play that game the other way too. The Super Bowl, for example. The Pats led 17-15 until the Giants' final drive. The D had given up only 13 of those points. Great job, right? Bailed out the offense, right? Well, that is, until the Giants shredded them in the last 2 minutes to win the game.

The Pats defense held the NYG to one touchdown in the first 59:01 of the Super Bowl. That is certainly a great job. They held vaunted WR Cruz to 25 yds on 4 catches.

The key play of the last NYG drive was the incredibly perfectly throw pass from Manning to Manningham. I don't know if you could honestly blame the defense.

The offensive production of the last 2 losing SB's has been 14 pts and 17 pts, which is obviously pathetic.

The defense played pretty well in the playoffs, and also down the stretch last yr when the injured players returned and the safety position was shored up.

It's quite possible Belichick is addressing both (it seems that way), but is counting more on the draft to fill the needs of the few positions/depth on defense.

 

[PatsFan2]

To quote the Son of the Cleveland Cavaliers owner at the NBA Draft Lottery when they got the #1 Selection.

"What not to like"

 

[supafly]

Before we get too much deeper into a "defense vs offense--who's to blame more?" discussion, let's remember that it was a team effort.

That said, there were some positions on the offensive side of the ball that needed addressing too, actually there still are.

With the LM ACL injury, the probable retirement of Light, the lack of any type of stretch the field/outside the #'s WR, the need of a 3rd TE, and the loss of BJGE, the offense certainly had some needs to be addressed too.

After all, the offense will always be our bread and butter, at least in my opinion while Brady's still around. The defense needs to be able to play well enough to keep us in games, and show improvement. If they can allow something in the area of 18-19 pts allowed on average, that by all accounts should be good enough to allow us to compete at an awfully high level.

The defense will continue to be addressed via the draft and FA, and since the secondary was probably our worst area last yr, I would expect that side of the ball to be better this yr.

 

[patfanken]

I just want to know who our pass rushers will be ...............

Good question Bob with lots of possible answers. First is that since he didn't go on a single visit, even though he had a better year than Anderson, Andre Carter seems like he's likely to want to come back. He had his most winning experience ever. He comfortable in the defense, and he loved the organization. I'd go up to $4MM for a year - give him $8MM for 2, guarantee $4MM, and make it so if he or the team doesn't want the 2nd year it will be a painless split.

However don't look for this signing to come much before camp. A guy his age, coming off an injury doesn't need to participate in OTA's Right now he needs rest and rehab.

After that who knows who BB might bring in. When they signed Anderson and Carter, they weren't thought of as locks to make the team, let alone account for half our sacks.

Patience Bob, as disappointed as I was not to get Anderson back, I'm really feeling good about the way this defense played at the end of the year and who we will be adding to it from the IR and FA....so far. I'm thinking that it might not be a Texan-like turnaround, but it could be damned close.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Well we could play that game the other way too. The Super Bowl, for example. The Pats led 17-15 until the Giants' final drive. The D had given up only 13 of those points. Great job, right? Bailed out the offense, right? Well, that is, until the Giants shredded them in the last 2 minutes to win the game.

You are playing with something alright.

I'd recommend actually watching the Super Bowl.

If you actually watch the game, you might notice a key Welker drop late in the 4th quarter that would have sealed the game.

Your problem is you are intellectually committed to something dumb...and while I admire committment in general, it can also drive one to get stuck on stupid.

1.) In general, it's not good to give up come from behind game wining TD's. What you and many others can't quite seem to grasp is that a review of recent Eli Manning history shows that Eli Manning has had several come from behind 4th quarter wins. If someone does something to everybody then nobody who had it done is noticeably bad.

Based on this the 49er defense also sucks.

Bill loses a game of "21". Therefore, he must suck as a basketball player. Yeah, but he lost to Micheal Jordan in his prime. So what? He lost so he sucks.

As the Douche says.....context.

2.) The defense bailed the offense out plenty. Between the post safety TD and the final drive....six points....including three after the INT. The offense had plenty of chances to put the game away and didn't. This culminated in the Welker drop.

Offense bailed out? Plenty...just not EVERY time.

3.) Another thing you can't grasp is the inherent concept of offense and defense. By definition, offenses are proactive and offensive ....that's why we call then offenses. Defenses are reactive and defensive....that's how they got the name defenses.

The reality of football and life is if you give anybody enough chances to do offense, they will be successful at some point. That's why the blind squirrel will eventually find the nut.

If you give a top 10 offense like the Giants enough chances, they will score. Sorry that bursts your world but it's simply reality.

4.) The reality of football is once a defense hits the 50 snap total. The balance goes to the offense. That's why you put games away as soon as possible. If you let someone hang around, bad things happen.

This is a real problem if the hanger around is a top 10 offense that has a QB with a record amount of 4th quarter come from behind wins.

This is reality.

We straight?

 

[BlueThunder]

Pats don't need a big splash on defense.....some solid vets signed that have a lower learning curve is fine. Having Ras-I back should help also. BB has grabbed the players on D that give better depth so we hopefully won't have Edelman on D or even Brown playing. If Sergio makes the roster, it will be ST only. Makes sense to give Carter healing time and sign him at the last minute.

Let the draft fill in any needs. I don't see any defensive players from the draft starting unless BB pkgs picks to move up and grab one in top 11-15 and I can't see that happening knowing BB's draft MO.

Enjoy the rest of FA and the Draft and quit worrying ! :rocker:

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

The Pats defense held the NYG to one touchdown in the first 59:01 of the Super Bowl. That is certainly a great job. They held vaunted WR Cruz to 25 yds on 4 catches.

The key play of the last NYG drive was the incredibly perfectly throw pass from Manning to Manningham. I don't know if you could honestly blame the defense.

The offensive production of the last 2 losing SB's has been 14 pts and 17 pts, which is obviously pathetic.

The defense played pretty well in the playoffs, and also down the stretch last yr when the injured players returned and the safety position was shored up.

It's quite possible Belichick is addressing both (it seems that way), but is counting more on the draft to fill the needs of the few positions/depth on defense.

The main thing that we can take away from this offseason is that based on the signings.....we are going to be as Bernard Pollard proof as possible.

What alot of people don't fully appreciate is that when one team wins, the amount of fate and luck required is huge.

If Gronk doesn't get hurt, we win by 2-3 scores.

Fumble recovery should be 50/50. What if we get one of the fumbles?

It's about the moment's execution and universal concepts.

Based on March and April activity, what fans should appreciate is the chance to let fate be.

Based on history and 2012 activity, we are in excellent position.

As the Polish general who surrendered Warsaw in 1939 said,...."A wheel always turns."

 

[Keyser Söze]

Giants shortest drive was 9 plays. Our defense didn't force a single 3 and out. We had the lead with the game on the line and the Giants went down the length of the field for the win. This defense needs serious help.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Giants shortest drive was 9 plays. Our defense didn't force a single 3 and out. We had the lead with the game on the line and the Giants went down the length of the field for the win. This defense needs serious help.

The smoking gun that proves patsfaninpittsburgh is 100% correct.

ivanramp

There is nothing more brutal than having this guy agree with you.

 

[patsfan-1982]

when guys like Cortland Finnegan get 10 million and mark Anderson gets 7 million the only way to build the defense is through the Draft

 

[Arrington Planet]

when guys like Cortland Finnegan get 10 million and mark Anderson gets 7 million the only way to build the defense is through the Draft

Pretty much this, we all would like to make all those big name signings, but we can't just waste all the money in 1/2 guys like that. I mean, look at Lloyd, he's our "biggest" FA acquisition and he's signed 4M/year (e.g. half of what the Redskins are paying Garçon). If we don't have the chance to sign any big names... what? We still have the draft, and with this awful awful defense we were 1 minute away from winning the SB last season.

 

[ivanvamp]

You are playing with something alright.

I'd recommend actually watching the Super Bowl.

If you actually watch the game, you might notice a key Welker drop late in the 4th quarter that would have sealed the game.

Your problem is you are intellectually committed to something dumb...and while I admire committment in general, it can also drive one to get stuck on stupid.

1.) In general, it's not good to give up come from behind game wining TD's. What you and many others can't quite seem to grasp is that a review of recent Eli Manning history shows that Eli Manning has had several come from behind 4th quarter wins. If someone does something to everybody then nobody who had it done is noticeably bad.

Based on this the 49er defense also sucks.

Bill loses a game of "21". Therefore, he must suck as a basketball player. Yeah, but he lost to Micheal Jordan in his prime. So what? He lost so he sucks.

As the Douche says.....context.

2.) The defense bailed the offense out plenty. Between the post safety TD and the final drive....six points....including three after the INT. The offense had plenty of chances to put the game away and didn't. This culminated in the Welker drop.

Offense bailed out? Plenty...just not EVERY time.

3.) Another thing you can't grasp is the inherent concept of offense and defense. By definition, offenses are proactive and offensive ....that's why we call then offenses. Defenses are reactive and defensive....that's how they got the name defenses.

The reality of football and life is if you give anybody enough chances to do offense, they will be successful at some point. That's why the blind squirrel will eventually find the nut.

If you give a top 10 offense like the Giants enough chances, they will score. Sorry that bursts your world but it's simply reality.

4.) The reality of football is once a defense hits the 50 snap total. The balance goes to the offense. That's why you put games away as soon as possible. If you let someone hang around, bad things happen.

This is a real problem if the hanger around is a top 10 offense that has a QB with a record amount of 4th quarter come from behind wins.

This is reality.

We straight?

Not really sure why you are being so venomous. My original post in this thread gave two seasons' worth of evidence that the pats' offense has carried the team, and when the offense has come up small *over the course of an entire game*, as it did in the Super Bowl and three other occasions in the past 2 years (which is to say, not very often), the defense hasn't put up the big-time effort to win the game. In other words, I would love to see the Pats' defense step up on a day when the Pats' otherworldly offense can only muster up 17 points and hold the opposition to just 10-13. But in the last two years, that has not happened once. That is a fact. No spin, no conjecture. Actual fact.

It doesn't mean the defense hasn't had good games or hasn't made big plays. Of course it has. And I do confess to being a bit arbitrary with the "when the Pats score fewer than 20 points" cutoff point, because it's true that the defense made a huge play (Sterling Moore) to stop the Ravens, for example. But in the four games that the Patriots have scored fewer than 20 points over the past two seasons, they've lost all four. And that means that the Pats' defense hasn't filled the gap for the offense in those games. It hasn't taken the game on its shoulders and said, that's ok, you guys are having a bad game, we're winning this.

I'm not trying to be obtuse or deny that the defense has had it's positive moments, but what I am stating are actual facts....that are not really disputable. You may dispute what those facts mean, but you can't dispute the facts.

 

[billdog3484]

if i told you the defense last year out performed the offense in the last two most important games of the year would you believe me?

i would say i have to disagree with you. time of posession vs. giants was 38 mins to 22 minutes. i could be wrong but its close. we have trouble getting off the field. this leads to less possessions, devalues our offense by limiting possessions. puts more pressure on them to score points every single time. i would also ask how giving up 95 yards in the final 2minutes of the super bowl is performing well

 

[billdog3484]

1.) Mario Williams aside, what great defenders were missed out on?

2.) What players, on either side of the ball, were overpaid?

3.) The team has brought in 3 players for the defensive secondary and 2 players for the front seven.

4.) The draft is still to come.

5.) Free agency isn't over yet.

6.) There will likely be more veteran cuts to look at in the future.

1. I never said we needed a Mario Williams type. However, I think acquiring depth players like we have done on offense would have better suited our needs. Fanene, Scott and Gregory will help I hope. But id rather have seen 3 more of those type of moves as opposed to picking up some of the guys we got on offense (which by the way, all things being equal, I am very excited about.

2. When did I say anything about over paying anyone in my post you quoted (or anywhere else). I can assure you I never did

3. Yes. I agree and am happy with them. But like I said, id rather see more of those type of moves than offensively

4. Very Very Excited!!!!

5. Very true.

6. Yah, could be interesting I think

 

[DonBlackmon55]

when guys like Cortland Finnegan get 10 million and mark Anderson gets 7 million the only way to build the TEAM is through the Draft

fixed. 10 charr

 

[billdog3484]

Were you hibernating in 2011?

The Patriots lost 4 games. 3 1/2 were due to the offense.

Go back and watch the games and then discuss.

Ok, lets discus.

Loss 1 - Buffalo 34 New England 31. Offense Scores 31. We blow 21 points lead. Yes, TB12 threw pick 6 which made difference. Defense does not stop Buffalo on last drive, including long FJax play

Loss 2 - Pitt 25 NWE 17. Pitt goes 10-16 on 3rd Down (or 63%-HORRIBLE). Patriots OFfense only scores 17 points. HOWEVER, lets look at the fine print. Pats offense has ball for a grand total of 20 mins, while the Steelers have the ball for 40 minutes.

Loss 3 - NYG 24 NWE 20. Defense plays great, 0 points, in first half. Gives up 24 points in 2nd half, including the inability to stop the Giants from going 80 yards in the last 2 minutes of game.

Loss 4 -NYG 21 NWE 17. Giants control ball for 38 minutes, Pats Offense has ball for 22 minutes. We lose super bowl after NYG go 95 yards on final play.

I think we have recurring themes here.

1. Inability to get off field during game (albeit holding opponents in check in red zone, but at some killing the total number of possessions and time of possession.
2. Inability to stop teams in 4th quarter.


So, maybe you were hibernating during the season. Especially if you think our Defense was good.

Our defense played better (A relative term) in the second half of the season. however, we played the Jets (sanchez), chiefs (palko-backup), eagles (vince young-backup), colts (whoever they had- backup), Washington (scrub), Denver (tebow), miami (matt moore) and bills (fitzpatrick).

we played better in the playoffs and were able to hang out. but dont try to insult me when you dont have the facts

 

[billdog3484]

4.) The reality of football is once a defense hits the 50 snap total. The balance goes to the offense. That's why you put games away as soon as possible. If you let someone hang around, bad things happen.

This is a real problem if the hanger around is a top 10 offense that has a QB with a record amount of 4th quarter come from behind wins.

This is reality.

We straight?

just so you understand. while it is true that once a defense's snap count increases they tire and theres an advantage to offense. but in the case of the patriots, this is not the offenses fault. the patriots D gives up 3rd down after 3rd down. their own inability to make stops keeps them on the field. watch the games, look at the stats. over the last 2 years we have been atrocious.

2011 - 28th Ranked 3rd Down Defense @43.1%
2010 - 32nd Ranked 3rd Down Defense @47.1%

This is a major part of the reason our D is on the field so long.

Based on the quote I snipped, here is your reasoning: "the patriots defense is not bad because our offense doesnt put teams away early."

It makes no sense.