What do we do regarding Hoyer?

[MoLewisrocks]

We have gone into seasons with Cassell, Guetirrez, Occonell, Davey, and Hoyer as #2s with them never having played. BB knows as much about Mallett as he did about them before they played, anectodal stories about 'watching a guy since HS' notwithstanding.

The point about the dynamics changing was exactly intended to imply we will keep both.

Cassel played in his rookie year, even though he was #3 and Flutie was #2. Miami game... He became Brady's lone backup the next season, although they eventually signed Vinnie on as a backup too.

KOC became a #2 by default only after Brady was injured. He never started a season as Brady's backup... Gutierrez was never more than a #3 here, or anywhere for that matter. You're going back to Rohan Davey? Bill has learned a lot since then. And Rohan was a third string backup in 2002 and 2003 - behind Damon Huard and the MVP of the NFLE before he backed Brady up in 2004...and never again. Cassel displaced him mercifully.

Hoyer was the first backup to take over cold. And with Brady coming off an ACL. Even Brady started out as a 4th stringer, although he was 2nd string by the end of that season.

 

[Ring 6]

Cassel played in his rookie year, even though he was #3 and Flutie was #2. Miami game... He became Brady's lone backup the next season, although they eventually signed Vinnie on as a backup too.

KOC became a #2 by default only after Brady was injured. He never started a season as Brady's backup... Gutierrez was never more than a #3 here, or anywhere for that matter. You're going back to Rohan Davey? Bill has learned a lot since then. And Rohan was a third string backup in 2002 and 2003 - behind Damon Huard and the MVP of the NFLE before he backed Brady up in 2004...and never again. Cassel displaced him mercifully.

Hoyer was the first backup to take over cold. And with Brady coming off an ACL. Even Brady started out as a 4th stringer, although he was 2nd string by the end of that season.

I should have said 'as much' not 'less' and what you just listed kind of shows that. Mostly we have #2s who have not, or barely seen the field, and never really competitively. Surely Cassells play against Miami with the backups in 06 doesn't separate him much from a guy who was here all camp and all season but didn't play.
I think we are stuck in semantics here. The point being a very inexperienced #2 is not something BB wouldn't consider.

 

[Ring 6]

As I said, it's just a guess. That being said many head coaches and general managers that are in a 'must improve now' hot seat mentality, so they may not be too concerned about a 2013 2nd round draft pick. If you compare to players that might project to that area in this upcoming draft (e.g., Kirk Cousins, Brock Osweiler, Nick Foles), is it really that much of a reach that some team may consider a player that has had two years of understudy work in a quality program in the NFL to be a preferable alternative?

I'm guessing at this point Hoyer would be more prepared than those draftees to step in right away if necessary. With the number of starting quarterbacks who don't make it through a season whether it be due to injury or ineffectiveness, a capable Plan B is the difference between keeping your job and being fired for many NFL head coaches. There are also a lot of teams that would like to bring in a quarterback to push an average to below average incumbent for training camp competition.

There will be a lot of teams in need of a quarterback that don't end up with Manning, Luck or Griffin. There also a lot of teams that saw what happened when the starter went down, from the Colts on one extreme to the Texans on the other, that could have benefitted from a better alternative at backup.

If a 2012 3rd or 2013 2nd is indeed too steep for Hoyer, what is the right price? A 2012 4th or 2013 3rd? If so and we assume Mallett has sufficiently progressed, should the Pats pull the trigger on such an offer?

I think where we differ is I don't see any way a team would consider Hoyer as a possible starter. I can't think of a team that he would be certain to beat out what they have, partly because he has never played meaningful NFL minutes, so there is a lot of guesswork involved.

Secondly, it isn't trade a 2nd for Hoyer or draft a QB in the 2nd but Hoyer or someone else. I don't think Hoyer is anywhere near the top of the list of available QBs that teams would pursue to start, but perhaps I am wrong.

 

[JMarr]

I agree with whoever said our QB situation is about as good as you can ask for right now. No need to rock the boat just for the sake of possibly picking up a mid-round draft pick. Brady's getting up there in age and the nagging injuries are starting to add up.

Hoyer knows the system well but is unknown quantity on the field. I'd like to have Hoyer and a guy with the upside of Mallet around this year should the unthinkable happen again. Viable options at backup QB should be a priority.

 

[Spiral]

Like others have said, he's a backup with limited experience. Next year as an UFA, he's going to walk with only a late-pick in the 2014 draft as compensation. The Patriots have a lot of holes in their 2012 draft slate. My guess is that BB would take a fifth for him.

 

[Banjo]

trade him for a third to Seattle or Cleveland

 

[IllegalContact]

hoyer's value is near zero. nobody is going to trade for him. if you tender him with anything but the lowest, he won't be going anywhere.

the primary need of the pats at QB is no longer to have backups for brady. if foresight is used the way so many around here claim, the pats are thinking future starter for the post-brady years. hoyer does not project to be that. the jury is out for mallett as tehre is a lack of data for what his top end might be.

I would suggest that hoyer is likely gone by the end of the first preseason game. the main reason is to provide the snaps and development attention to mallett. if it appears that mallett is not the one, he will be replaced by the 2013 draft.

 

[Deus Irae]

Like others have said, he's a backup with limited experience. Next year as an UFA, he's going to walk with only a late-pick in the 2014 draft as compensation. The Patriots have a lot of holes in their 2012 draft slate. My guess is that BB would take a fifth for him.

Scotch?...

 

[Uncle Rico]

Interesting: Greg Bedard, who you'll remember came to the Globe from covering the Packers for a few years, tweeted this:

If I lose out on Manning, I'm not getting into a bidding war for Matt Flynn. I'd rather sign Pats RFA QB Brian Hoyer to an offer sheet ...

It would be much, much cheaper. How far would the Patriots go in matching? I'm guessing not very far at all. Do it now before UFA next year

Very similar, Hoyer has much better arm RT @tonygoodrich84: Hoyer as good as Flynn or nearly as good and way cheaper?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

If I lose out on Manning, I'm not getting into a bidding war for Matt Flynn. I'd rather sign Pats RFA QB Brian Hoyer to an offer sheet ...

Seriously, if a team offered Hoyer, 2 years/$5M and offered the Pats a 2 or 3, the Pats would send someone to pack up his stuff and drive him to the airport.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Interesting: Greg Bedard, who you'll remember came to the Globe from covering the Packers for a few years, tweeted this:

Bedard may suffer from the same up close and personal view we cool aid Pats fans have of Hoyer and over estimate how another team may look at him vs a Flynn.

If the Pats tender BH at a 2nd, which I think they will, and a team offers a 2012 2nd or 3rd, which I think they won't, I'd take it in a minute. I am assuming that the Pats see the needed development in their 2011 3rd round pick.

A 2nd window for trading BH is at the end of camp. Again assuming The Hammer shows capability, the Pats might shop Hoyer to some team who just lost their QB for the season. I would not expect a 2013 pick better than 5th.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Seriously, if a team offered Hoyer, 2 years/$5M and offered the Pats a 2 or 3, the Pats would send someone to pack up his stuff and drive him to the airport.

In order to sign him to an offer sheet you have to part with the 2...or the 1...or whatever the tender calls for. The Patriots would likely never match a sheet, and it would be for more than 2 years and $5M or Hoyer wouldn't bother signing it. Freakin' Kerry Collins got 2 years and double digit millions with $4M up front guaranteed...

What Bedard is saying is that Hoyer is better than Flynn and Flynn is going to end up with a 5 year $50M deal with $15M guaranteed...because of the law of supply and demand.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Bedard may suffer from the same up close and personal view we cool aid Pats fans have of Hoyer and over estimate how another team may look at him vs a Flynn.

If the Pats tender BH at a 2nd, which I think they will, and a team offers a 2012 2nd or 3rd, which I think they won't, I'd take it in a minute. I am assuming that the Pats see the needed development in their 2011 3rd round pick.

A 2nd window for trading BH is at the end of camp. Again assuming The Hammer shows capability, the Pats might shop Hoyer to some team who just lost their QB for the season. I would not expect a 2013 pick better than 5th.

Or he may just be right... Ah, fond memories of the old Matt Cassel is crap and belongs bagging at Walmart days here. The Hammer...LOL

 

[E Belichick Unum]

without knowing off hand the $$ difference between the 1 and 2 tender, I'd go with the 1 because I'd be terrified of some team taking him for a 2.

I believe that the difference between the two tenders is about $700K ($1.2M vs $1.9M). As for the draft pick, I would bet that BB would take a second for him today and smile about it. Remember he was undrafted, he has played only a handful of plays in three years and he is at best a reach for any team signing him.

If he can get a 2 for him, take it and sign a veteran backup to come in and play scout team QB.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I believe that the difference between the two tenders is about $700K ($1.2M vs $1.9M). As for the draft pick, I would bet that BB would take a second for him today and smile about it. Remember he was undrafted, he has played only a handful of plays in three years and he is at best a reach for any team signing him.

If he can get a 2 for him, take it and sign a veteran backup to come in and play scout team QB.

The difference is about right (~$800K), but the tenders aren't:

First-round tender $2.74M
Second-round tender $1.93M
Original-round tender $1.26M

 

[DW Toys]

I cant imagine anyone is going to give that up to get Brian Hoyer. I know most Patsfans are high on his come out of nowhere to look good in preseason persona, but he hasn't really done anything convincing since going undrafted, other than gain his coaches confidence. No one has seen real evidence on the field to judge him one way or the other.

I can't imagine any team will feel its worth a 2nd or 3rd to have to have him today as their backup (surely no one will hand him a starting job) when waiting a year means they can get him for free.

I'd like to think he has been well trained, but we really are just guessing.

I would have to go with the Mod. You may be correct, who will spend a second, but a Team like the Jags who have a definite maybe at QB or I can't believe Jackson in Seattle throws fear into the enemy, they might second a second or if BB see's value in a third, fine. I thought he might be easier to move if we use him to a Team like the Jags or Hawks to move up the board. No pick used and we get value.
DW Toys

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Ian Rapaport is reiterating today what he has heard for months. The Patriots love Hoyer and have no intention of losing him and may be planning on using the first round tender and not the second to make sure they don't. But he's probably just suffering from too up close to the situation phobia like Bedard...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The difference is about right (~$800K), but the tenders aren't:

First-round tender $2.74M
Second-round tender $1.93M
Original-round tender $1.26M

And we just added twice that in free cap space...

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Ian Rapaport is reiterating today what he has heard for months. The Patriots love Hoyer and have no intention of losing him and may be planning on using the first round tender and not the second to make sure they don't. But he's probably just suffering from too up close to the situation phobia like Bedard...

Remember the reports of how the Pats loved Guttierez?

Paying almost $3M for Hoyer, plus The Hammer and then Brady is a LOT of cap space spent on QB

EDIT: Correction upon research vs top of the head emotion, The Hammer has a tiny cap hit ~ $500K

 

[Deus Irae]

Remember the reports of how the Pats loved Guttierez?

Paying almost $3M for Hoyer, plus The Hammer and then Brady is a LOT of cap space spent on QB

EDIT: Correction upon research vs top of the head emotion, The Hammer has a tiny cap hit ~ $500K

Here's one thread that's a blast from the past:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/101977-i-can-not-see-how-gutierrez-not-far-2-qb-now.html


Good times...