Safeties

[Sciz]

Wasn't this what we were left with when the Defense failed in the SB again? I hope BB has a better plan than this. Even if it consists of signing and drafting Safeties that he can subsequently convert on the fly so that they're proficient or even excellent by Seasons end.

It's the same safety group, but my assumption is that Belichick would draft another CB if McCourty moves to FS, because there are a lot of pretty good CBs in this draft. So while the safeties would be the same, the CB group looks to be improved with the healthy of Dowling, the drafting of a new CB, and Moore's progression.

 

[mgteich]

1) Yes, this is where we left off when we failed in the Super Bowl.

2) I agree that we should work to improve the secondary.

3) I don't think that there will be much opportunity to improve at safety. Therefore, we should accept that our safeties will be about the same and tryo to improve elsewhere. BTW, safety play could improve as McCourty has a year of experience at the position. Barrett could also be more a factor than the #4 safety. After all, he was a developin starter when he was healthy. He wasn't doing well, but there may be potential.

4) We SHOULD indeed focus on improving the secondary, at the CORNER position. We start with Arrington, Moore, and Molden. We add Dowling. We should add 2-3 more in free agency and in the draft.

BOTTOM LINE
S Chung, McCourty, Ihedigbo, Barrett
CB tbd, Arrington, Dowling, Moore, Molden/tbd
DB tbd

There are lots of possibilities at improving the corners. This will give us an improved secondary.

Wasn't this what we were left with when the Defense failed in the SB again? I hope BB has a better plan than this. Even if it consists of signing and drafting Safeties that he can subsequently convert on the fly so that they're proficient or even excellent by Seasons end.

 

[Deus Irae]

....4) We SHOULD indeed focus on improving the secondary, at the CORNER position. We start with Arrington, Moore, and Molden. We add Dowling. We should add 2-3 more in free agency and in the draft....

McCourty is a cornerback

 

[resdubwhite]

I am hoping there are a few cap casualties at the safety position this year.

Well I can hope.

 

[patfanken]

Landry's probably the best available:

2012 NFL Free Agents: DB

I don't think so. He's the best "name" out there, and even if you ignore the injury concerns, he's not a coverage safety. In fact coverage is one of his weaknesses. At this point he's more in the category of a July vet minimum FA signing, than a March high end guy.

 

[patfanken]

I was against the moving of McCourty to FS, even though I thought he could be very good at it based off his brief showing this season. My feelings were that by the end of the season, he was closer to being the all pro CB we saw in 2010, than the ineffective player we saw for a good part of the season in 2011.

HOWEVER, part of the reason for NOT moving McCourty (short of an injury situation), was that we solve the coverage safety position in FA. I would have been very happy with either Griffith or DeCoud, but now we know neither of those 2 guys are coming.

The draft also paints a bad picture. Barron, and Smith are the 2 highest rated S's in this weak class, and both look like more the SS type, than the coverage guy we are looking for. The draft is much deeper at the CB position, so with Dowling coming back, and the fact that its easier to transition a CB into the league than a S, I'm beginning to think moving McCourty to FS at the start of the season is beginning to make more sense.

Richard Marshall was a binky back when he was a potential draft pick out of Fresno. People have made a nice case for him as a FS guy who has some CB skills as well. Sounds like a good pick up as well as an economical one. The more I think about it, I'm warming up to the idea. What about Reggie Nelson. He was a high pick of the Jags and started out strong, but I've lost track of his career the last few seasons. What's his situation? Would he be a better pick up that Marshall?

As for drafting a FS type this season, I really don't want to, especially early. I don't see a rookie S having a big impact on the field in his first year. Much too much to learn, absorb, and communicate. However I wouldn't hate picking up a CB like Gilmore early or Tru Johnson later as guys who have the potential to transition in Safeties down the road. In fact I would love grabbing Gilmore strictly as another CB

BTW- as weak as THIS class is going to be at S, next year's class should be a great one, with at leas 5 coverage guys who are going to get first or 2nd round grades.

 

[ATippett56]

BOTTOM LINE
S Chung, McCourty, Ihedigbo, Barrett
CB tbd, Arrington, Dowling, Moore, Molden/tbd
DB tbd

There are lots of possibilities at improving the corners. This will give us an improved secondary.

Anyone would be better than James Ihedigbo or Sergio Brown, even the return of a well motivated James Sanders.

 

[mgteich]

I agree that McCourty is a cornerback. However, he also seems to be our #2 safety, even playing out of position.

I suppose we could bring back Sanders to start at safety for a season. After all, the 2013 draft class has lots of top safeties.

As of now, the situation is indeed bleak. We have Chung and Barrett. Ihedigbo is a free agent. There is no one in the draft who should be expected to start. There may or may not be some minor help in free agency.

I would be fine with allocated $5M-8M of cap money to free agent safeties, if they were available. We would then be in reasonable shape at corner with Arrington, McCourty, Moore, Dowling and Molden. Of course, we would draft an upgrade if he were available.


BOTTOM LINE
Where is the help coming from at safety?

McCourty is a cornerback

 

[supafly]

I was against the moving of McCourty to FS, even though I thought he could be very good at it based off his brief showing this season. My feelings were that by the end of the season, he was closer to being the all pro CB we saw in 2010, than the ineffective player we saw for a good part of the season in 2011.

HOWEVER, part of the reason for NOT moving McCourty (short of an injury situation), was that we solve the coverage safety position in FA. I would have been very happy with either Griffith or DeCoud, but now we know neither of those 2 guys are coming.

The draft also paints a bad picture. Barron, and Smith are the 2 highest rated S's in this weak class, and both look like more the SS type, than the coverage guy we are looking for. The draft is much deeper at the CB position, so with Dowling coming back, and the fact that its easier to transition a CB into the league than a S, I'm beginning to think moving McCourty to FS at the start of the season is beginning to make more sense.

Richard Marshall was a binky back when he was a potential draft pick out of Fresno. People have made a nice case for him as a FS guy who has some CB skills as well. Sounds like a good pick up as well as an economical one. The more I think about it, I'm warming up to the idea. What about Reggie Nelson. He was a high pick of the Jags and started out strong, but I've lost track of his career the last few seasons. What's his situation? Would he be a better pick up that Marshall?

As for drafting a FS type this season, I really don't want to, especially early. I don't see a rookie S having a big impact on the field in his first year. Much too much to learn, absorb, and communicate. However I wouldn't hate picking up a CB like Gilmore early or Tru Johnson later as guys who have the potential to transition in Safeties down the road. In fact I would love grabbing Gilmore strictly as another CB

BTW- as weak as THIS class is going to be at S, next year's class should be a great one, with at leas 5 coverage guys who are going to get first or 2nd round grades.

I would love the signing of Richard Marshall. I would also ponder the signing of Reggie Nelson at the right price of course. There's no doubt that Marshall is much better talent-wise, and also provides versatility at both CB and S, something that Nelson does not bring.

It's a great point that the safety position can very well be upgraded by bringing in one more versatile CB like Marshall. That would now make 4 potential CB/S hybrids, who provide versatility at both positions.

1.McCourty--could play CB in base, and move to S in subs.

2.Dowling--many here called for his possible switch to safety. I disagree, and think he's a much better CB. I also don't want to put him in a position where one tends to get injured more than CB. I think Dowling is one of our starting CB's next yr, BUT he can provide versatility in a pinch at free safety.

3.Moore--we've seen him play both, and he looked decent (as far as 1st yr's go) doing it. He definitely provides versatility at both secondary positions.

4.Marshall--definitely a decent CB, and looked good filling in at S last yr in ARZ. More versatility at both positions.

-----------

This isn't even taking into acct using the NFL's leading INT guy, Arrington in the 'star' position. He can surely be just fine playing slot CB.

That also leaves our best SS, Patrick Chung.

The secondary would now look like the following for 2012:

1.McCourty
2.Dowling
3.Arrington
4.Moore
5.Marshall
6.Chung
7.High round draft pick (rounds 1-3)
8.Ihedigbo
9.Barrett/Brown or low level FA acquisition

That now potentially solves the problem, simply by adding more versatility in the mix of Richard Marshall (should be financially sound move, approx. 6 or so million a year), AND adding another CB or S in the draft.

Problem solved. Now we have improved talent, improved competition, and better depth. Better yet, even more versatility, and potentially could even set a new standard of using the 'hybrid' CB/S, which is brilliant in itself with the high-passing NFL.

And to go one step further, the entire secondary combined, as in BOTH CB/S would be incredibly cheap and cost efficient. I think this is the way to go. Regardless, there's no way it's anywhere as bad as it was in 2011.

 

[ATippett56]

The secondary would now look like the following for 2012:

1.McCourty
2.Dowling
3.Arrington
4.Moore
5.Marshall
6.Chung
7.High round draft pick (rounds 1-3)
8.Ihedigbo
9.Barrett/Brown or low level FA acquisition

Re-signing safety James Ihedigbo does not improve the defensive secondary whatsoever. I would rather expend two draft picks on safeties or cornerback to safety conversions as opposed to the proposed one.

Unfortunately, Sergio Brown survived all the roster cuts that occurred during the 2011 NFL Season, so the New England Patriots coaching staff value him on special teams. That said, Sergio Brown offers no value to the New England Patriots defensive improvement going forward.

 

[supafly]

Re-signing safety James Ihedigbo does not improve the defensive secondary whatsoever. I would rather expend two draft picks on safeties or cornerback to safety conversions as opposed to the proposed one.

Unfortunately, Sergio Brown survived all the roster cuts that occurred during the 2011 NFL Season, so the New England Patriots coaching staff value him on special teams. That said, Sergio Brown offers no value to the New England Patriots defensive improvement going forward.

Ihedigbo offers some ST presence, and could be a depth guy that we'd hopefully not see too much. Regardless, he does know the system and could be here for depth. We'll have to see in the coming weeks if BB and the front office value him at all or not. I definitely agree that I don't want to see him starting.

As far as my proposed depth chart goes:

Why would you not want to see 4 to 5 potentially hybrid guys who could possibly play BOTH CB and S?

Dowling
McCourty
Moore
Marshall
High draft pick (rds 1-3)

That also leaves Arrington for the star position, where he is best utilized, and Chung as our starting SS.

Out of the top 5 hybrids, surely 2 can play outside CB, and one could be our FS.

That would leave 2 depth guys who don't make the cut as our 2 outside CB's and 1 FS (say, Moore and the draft pick as depth for the positions) + lower level on the list guys of Ihedigbo (if they see fit), and ONE of Barrett/Brown (or another low level draft pick or low level FA signing)

------------

That's certainly ONE way to tackle the problem. And the only reason why I am even suggesting it, is due to the lack of any 'good' FA safeties + the need for a hybrid CB/S in a pass heavy NFL.

The other way to combat it, of course, is signing a pure FS such as Reggie Nelson. Landry is closer to a SS, so that really doesn't solve the problem in my opinion.

I think they should sign a decent FA CB like Marshall, who offers such versatility, and then take a S in the draft.

 

[ATippett56]

Ihedigbo offers some ST presence, and could be a depth guy that we'd hopefully not see too much. Regardless, he does know the system and could be here for depth. We'll have to see in the coming weeks if BB and the front office value him at all or not. I definitely agree that I don't want to see him starting.

As far as my proposed depth chart goes:

Why would you not want to see 4 to 5 potentially hybrid guys who could possibly play BOTH CB and S?

Dowling
McCourty
Moore
Marshall
High draft pick (rds 1-3)

That also leaves Arrington for the star position, where he is best utilized, and Chung as our starting SS.

Out of the top 5 hybrids, surely 2 can play outside CB, and one could be our FS.

That would leave 2 depth guys who don't make the cut as our 2 outside CB's and 1 FS (say, Moore and the draft pick as depth for the positions) + lower level on the list guys of Ihedigbo (if they see fit), and ONE of Barrett/Brown (or another low level draft pick or low level FA signing)

------------

That's certainly ONE way to tackle the problem. And the only reason why I am even suggesting it, is due to the lack of any 'good' FA safeties + the need for a hybrid CB/S in a pass heavy NFL.

The other way to combat it, of course, is signing a pure FS such as Reggie Nelson. Landry is closer to a SS, so that really doesn't solve the problem in my opinion.

I think they should sign a decent FA CB like Marshall, who offers such versatility, and then take a S in the draft.

James Ihedigbo is an unrestricted free agent, and the New England Patriots already have enough special teams safeties on the roster:

Matt Slater (unrestricted free agent)
Sergio Brown
Ross Ventrone
Malcolm Williams

I'm not against the acquisition of Richard Marshall, cornerback from Fresno State, but what would be the salary cap charge for the 2012 NFL Season and whether that acquisition prohibits the upgrade at the wide receiver position in unrestricted free agency aside from 2011 New England Patriots wide receivers Deion Branch, Chad "Ochostinko" Johnson, Tiquan Underwood.

Cornerbacks
McCourty
Dowling
Arrington
Moore
2012 NFL Draft Pick

Safeties
Chung
Marshall
2012 NFL Draft Pick
Slater (special teams)
Brown (special teams)

 

[supafly]

James Ihedigbo is an unrestricted free agent, and the New England Patriots already have enough special teams safeties on the roster:

Matt Slater (unrestricted free agent)
Sergio Brown
Ross Ventrone
Malcolm Williams

I'm not against the acquisition of Richard Marshall, cornerback from Fresno State, but what would be the salary cap charge for the 2012 NFL Season and whether that acquisition prohibits the upgrade at the wide receiver position in unrestricted free agency aside from 2011 New England Patriots wide receivers Deion Branch, Chad "Ochostinko" Johnson, Tiquan Underwood.

Cornerbacks
McCourty
Dowling
Arrington
Moore
2012 NFL Draft Pick

Safeties
Chung
Marshall
2012 NFL Draft Pick
Slater (special teams)
Brown (special teams)

I know that Ihedigbo is a FA, that's why I said we'll have to see if BB and the front office value his return or not. Regardless, you don't like him here, and that's fine with me. I think he may (or may not) offer a ST and depth role at safety. I am certainly not advocating using him too often, and only as a true backup and depth options. But if we've seen guys like Slater and Ventrone playing depth safety before, there's really no reason for me to think they wouldn't value a guy like Ihedigbo who knows the system and has played for an entire yr, mostly as a starter. In my opinion, they will certainly at least 'consider' the re-upping at a very minimal price.

Good point on the ST safeties on the roster, but I would argue that:

1. It didn't seem to matter last yr at all
2. Slater is certainly not a 'real' safety, and should never see the field
3. Malcolm Williams is a CB, who was never mentioned as anything near a safety until a recent ESPN article from Reiss 2 weeks ago. Even that could be speculation. Or it could be that Belichick will throw all leftovers into the FS position, and see if something sticks. But he was drafted as a CB, and was a CB on the practice squad last yr.

The only place we really seem to disagree is that you'd have Slater on your depth chart, while I'd probably have Ihedigbo. I don't think either one of us would want to see either one of them actually playing...

As far as the WR's go, that's a different issue altogether, and I am not personally expecting a bigger-type move there. I don't see any kind of BB coached/managed team taking up 20% of the salary cap in 2 WR positions. That's just my theory though, and I certainly hope that I am wrong.

I could see a middle of the road guy as an upgrade. Who that'll be is the question of the next week/10 days. I'm assuming that they go hard at Llyod (hopefully), but am afraid that he may cost too much. I see him asking about 5-6 million per, but we'll have to see. I think either a guy like Wayne, who will come a lot cheaper and offer an instant upgrade (plus BB seems to really value and respect him from all accounts), or a guy like Meachem.

To bottom line it though, don't be surprised to see BB refuse to make any big waves at the WR position. He may once again go against the grain of public thinking or assuming, and have his own way of handling it. Or he may actually feel that Ochocinco may somehow still offer use here, who knows? He may also be totally fine with what we currently have.

I guess we'll all debate about it for the next week--two weeks, but then we should have a better picture about what will happen moving forward. I think that the Welker situation is limiting them somewhat, and that if Wes had signed an extension by now, we may have seen something a bit more aggressive.

 

[supafly]

Of course, BB may also surprise us and target a TE; thus moving Hernandez to more of a pure WR role. I doubt it myself, but I do think that these kind of outside the box thinking situations should be explored when trying to assess what Belichick will do.

I think in a realistic sense, we may see a WR core similar to the following:

1. Welker
2. FA target to stretch the field, and make plays outside the numbers--not necessarily a big name though
3. Branch/Ochocinco
4. The loser of that battle
5. Edelman
6. Draft pick

To me, that's really not that big of a change, but should provide some type of an upgrade at the most cost efficient way that we'd expect.
-----------

The "real" WR/TE targets will still be as follows: (and this is more important)

1. Welker
2. Gronkowski
3. FA target to stretch the field, + make plays outside the numbers more
4. Hernandez
5. Branch/Ochocinco

There's also the chance that Belichick is valuing a guy like Vereen to be the "#5" option, thus moving one of Branch/Ocho down to an actual #6.

I still don't think that this position is going to take up anywhere near the cost that most seem to think. That would leave money to try and either make a splash with a 'big name' FA like Mario Williams, or spend it accordingly on a guy like Marshall (or the like) in the secondary. I would assume that R.Marshall would come for somewhere close to the Leigh Bodden deal, at 5-6 million per.

Eric Wright may be another CB/S target too, for somewhere approximately close to the same kind of mid-tier money.

 

[ATippett56]

I know that Ihedigbo is a FA, that's why I said we'll have to see if BB and the front office value his return or not. Regardless, you don't like him here, and that's fine with me. I think he may (or may not) offer a ST and depth role at safety. I am certainly not advocating using him too often, and only as a true backup and depth options.

James Ihedigbo was one of the worst starting safeties in the NFL this past season:

0 Forced Fumbles
0 Quarterback Sacks
0 Pass Interceptions
1 Pass Defensed

I have seen enough of James Ihedigbo and an immediate upgrade is necessitated.

But if we've seen guys like Slater and Ventrone playing depth safety before, there's really no reason for me to think they wouldn't value a guy like Ihedigbo who knows the system and has played for an entire yr, mostly as a starter. In my opinion, they will certainly at least 'consider' the re-upping at a very minimal price.

The New England Patriots need to vastly improve the defense and not maintain the status quo.

Good point on the ST safeties on the roster, but I would argue that:

1. It didn't seem to matter last yr at all
2. Slater is certainly not a 'real' safety, and should never see the field
3. Malcolm Williams is a CB, who was never mentioned as anything near a safety until a recent ESPN article from Reiss 2 weeks ago. Even that could be speculation. Or it could be that Belichick will throw all leftovers into the FS position, and see if something sticks. But he was drafted as a CB, and was a CB on the practice squad last yr.

Bill Belichick values players on the kickoff coverage and punt coverage teams, Sergio Brown and Matt Slater.

The only place we really seem to disagree is that you'd have Slater on your depth chart, while I'd probably have Ihedigbo. I don't think either one of us would want to see either one of them actually playing...

I placed Slater and Brown as special teams safeties for no other reason than for roster designations.

As far as the WR's go, that's a different issue altogether, and I am not personally expecting a bigger-type move there. I don't see any kind of BB coached/managed team taking up 20% of the salary cap in 2 WR positions. That's just my theory though, and I certainly hope that I am wrong.

I could see a middle of the road guy as an upgrade. Who that'll be is the question of the next week/10 days. I'm assuming that they go hard at Llyod (hopefully), but am afraid that he may cost too much. I see him asking about 5-6 million per, but we'll have to see. I think either a guy like Wayne, who will come a lot cheaper and offer an instant upgrade (plus BB seems to really value and respect him from all accounts), or a guy like Meachem.

The main issue is the 2012 NFL salary cap especially considering the following New England Patriots free agents:

Wes Welker - franchise tag (done)
Bryan Hoyer (RFA)
Kyle Love (ERFA)
Dan Connolly
Dan Koppen
Deion Branch
BenJarvus Green-Ellis
Tracy White
Matt Slater
Andre Carter

In addition, the New England Patriots have two first round draft picks, two second round draft picks, one third round draft pick, and one fourth round draft pick to allocate towards the 2012 NFL salary cap.

 

[UK_Pat37]

James Ihedigbo is a decent depth guy. i don't see the need to make a replacement at SS and make any big signings at that position. He's a strong safety who was forced to play more of a roaming free safety next to Chung with injuries.

 

[supafly]

James Ihedigbo was one of the worst starting safeties in the NFL this past season:

0 Forced Fumbles
0 Quarterback Sacks
0 Pass Interceptions
1 Pass Defensed

I have seen enough of James Ihedigbo and an immediate upgrade is necessitated.

The New England Patriots need to vastly improve the defense and not maintain the status quo.

Bill Belichick values players on the kickoff coverage and punt coverage teams, Sergio Brown and Matt Slater.

I placed Slater and Brown as special teams safeties for no other reason than for roster designations.

The main issue is the 2012 NFL salary cap especially considering the following New England Patriots free agents:

Wes Welker - franchise tag (done)
Bryan Hoyer (RFA)
Kyle Love (ERFA)
Dan Connolly
Dan Koppen
Deion Branch
BenJarvus Green-Ellis
Tracy White
Matt Slater
Andre Carter

In addition, the New England Patriots have two first round draft picks, two second round draft picks, one third round draft pick, and one fourth round draft pick to allocate towards the 2012 NFL salary cap.

All fine points.

I think there's several different ways of improving the secondary. One is what we spoke of with the addition of a guy like Marshall or E.Wright (etc). Choose your player. Someone who can provide a bit more versatility to possibly play any of the secondary positions (outside, inside, FS, SS, nickle slot, etc).

Another is to simply draft a player and choose a stright up safety. Maybe a guy like a Sean Jones (again, choose your version of who you'd like), or even take a chance on a guy like Reggie Nelson.

I do think that we are in agreement for about 90% of it, with the only exception coming from 'who' we view as the bottom tiered depth chart guys.

You may be good with Brown, Ventrone, or either of them; while I may still be okay with a guy like Ihedigbo (I provided 2 great quotes from media sources last week who claimed that he played way beyond expectations...as much as I don't agree. I do think he was 'servicable' though).

Any way that you look at it, I think BB makes the necessary changes, and that we see the upgrade that we need to see. After all, the secondary was looking a lot better towards the 2nd half of the yr, and through the playoffs.

I agree with you about the upgrades, but I think some of these upgrades (safety, wide receiver) are also a bit panic-stricken over rated too.

The team can make something a lot closer to 'minor' changes, and although everyone will be pissed and complain, it should get the job done.

The good thing is that we won't have to wait that much longer to see how it shapes up and comes to play.

 

[supafly]

James Ihedigbo is a decent depth guy. i don't see the need to make a replacement at SS and make any big signings at that position. He's a strong safety who was forced to play more of a roaming free safety next to Chung with injuries.

There are many who agree with you. Me, Mike Reiss etc to name a couple.

The problem is, there are also many who don't agree with that thinking either.

Where I DON'T want to see Ihedigbo, is having to play too often.

Time will quickly tell whether or not Belichick views a guy like him as a possible depth chart guy at safety, that will obviously be the determining factor.

 

[ATippett56]

The team can make something a lot closer to 'minor' changes, and although everyone will be pissed and complain, it should get the job done.

Signing cornerback/free safety Richard Marshall in unrestricted free agency is not a minor change. Selecting a safety and/or cornerback in the first and/or second round of the 2012 NFL Draft is not a minor change. It's a commitment to improving the defensive secondary.

The good thing is that we won't have to wait that much longer to see how it shapes up and comes to play.

2012 NFL key dates - ESPN

March 13, 2012: Start of free agency, 4 p.m. ET

March 13: Beginning of trade period, 4 p.m. ET

March 13: Deadline for submission of qualifying offers by clubs to retain exclusive negotiating rights to their players with fewer than three accrued seasons, 4 p.m. ET

March 13: Deadline for submission of qualifying offers by clubs to retain a right of first refusal / compensation to their RFAs, 4 p.m. ET

 

[supafly]

Signing cornerback/free safety Richard Marshall in unrestricted free agency is not a minor change. Selecting a safety and/or cornerback in the first and/or second round of the 2012 NFL Draft is not a minor change. It's a commitment to improving the defensive secondary.

2012 NFL key dates - ESPN

Yeah, I suppose signing a player such as Marshall, Wright, S.Jones, etc and adding a draft pick shouldn't be considered 'minor,' but when you consider the fact that just about everyone assumes that we'll take a high draft pick of some sort, the only addition would be a "mid-level" guy. That's kind of what I meant.

The draft at this point should be considered almost 100%, at least in the first 3 rds. I think that's assumed by everyone.

The comparison of a mid-level guy (someone in the approx. 4-5-6 mil/per range) would be the 'surprise' that most aren't assuming. I think with all of the talk of the Dashon Goldson's, the Tyvon Branch's, the Michael Griffin's, and the Cortland Finnegan's of the world--many were/are assuming more of a 'major' change.

I see nothing more than the expected draft pick, and a mid-level FA acquisition. It's also my opinion, right or wrong, that we'll see something a lot closer to this on the WR front too.

The point I am trying to make is that neither position may be targeted with all of the 'assumed' talent league/big named players that the majority of the board are expecting.