Greg Cosell discusses impact of Rob Ninkovich, Brandon Spikes on Pats defense

[patfanken]

I think the most important lesson that Ninkovitch can teach us is how LONG it takes for a former college DE to learn the OLB in a 3-4 the way the Pats play it, AND the value of PATIENCE when evaluating the position.

As far as the Vrabel comparison, there are SO many examples. Essentially both were in the league SIX years before they made ANY impact to their teams. Vrabel never had more that 2 sacks in the 4 years he played for the Steelers. Ninko didn't have a sack until he got here.

Things did improve for Vrabel when he came with the Pats, but fans forget that he only had 7 sacks over his first 2 years here. They forget that it wasn't until his SEVENTH season in the league before he became a legitimate rush threat (9.5) AND he only had one double digit sacks in one year (his 7th with the Pats). Compare that to Mike Anderson who did in his first year as a part time player.

The point is that when fans keep praying for the "next" Mike Vrabel, remember that you are praying for a solid OLB who could set the edge, give you some consistent pressure (don't forget that he averaged only 4 sacks/yr over his career), and drop back into coverage.

Well I have news for you, your prayers have been answered. Go back and compare Vrabel's and Ninko's stats for the 2nd and 3rd years on the team. They are almost identical. So before some of you dismiss Ninko as being a "nice little player" who is holding the fort until the "next Mike Vrabel" comes along, check the facts. Vrabel is BACK and his name is Rob Ninkovich.

And to all those people who are ready to jettison Jermaine Cunningham after just two seasons, take into consideration that Cunningham had a MUCH better rookie season than either of these guys. Not even close. So although, in the lockout shortened off season, Cunningham failed to get ready to play, and in an injury plagued season did NOTHING to contribute. The Vrabel/Ninkovich lesson tells us it is WAY to early to simply dismiss him.

It is also a lesson that explains somewhat BB's reluctance to select college DE's who are going to be OLB's in the NFL in the draft. Generally it takes just too long for them to develop in HIS system.

 

[patfanken]

ninkivich is roughly equivalent to matt chatham

That is such an idiotic comment that I'm ashamed that I bothered to comment.

 

[Ring 6]

based on what? I've heard many people like Bedard comment upon how they respect Cosell's analysis.

Based upon my opinion of his comments, viewpoints and analysis.

 

[Rich<3TheWoodhead]

Maybe we can agree on the fact that mayo might be an elite ILB but he is not "clutch". Don't confuse clutch and elite. Most elite players are clutch but some just don't have the gene. Aka Lebron. And please I'm just using that as an example. Mayo is in no way the Lebron of the nfl. Lol!

 

[condon84]

A decent LB makes the pick, or at least batters it down, let alone an "elite" one.

Like a commenter wrote about that play Eli Manning to Victor Cruz Super Bowl XLVI TD Catch vs Patriots - YouTube

How on earth does Mayo not pick this off? Tedy Bruschi or Mike Vrabel picks this every single time.

That's the difference between the old Pats and the new Pats. I love these guys, but they're not the clutch playmakers we're used to seeing.

Getting mad at Mayo for not making that play is like getting mad at Brady for not being able to scramble for first downs.

 

[Rich<3TheWoodhead]

Getting mad at Mayo for not making that play is like getting mad at Brady for not being able to scramble for first downs.

You're kidding right? That's a play a feature LB makes. Think Willis or Ray Lewis blow that opportunity? Possible but unlikely.

 

[Joey007]

A decent LB makes the pick, or at least batters it down, let alone an "elite" one.

Like a commenter wrote about that play Eli Manning to Victor Cruz Super Bowl XLVI TD Catch vs Patriots - YouTube

How on earth does Mayo not pick this off? Tedy Bruschi or Mike Vrabel picks this every single time.

That's the difference between the old Pats and the new Pats. I love these guys, but they're not the clutch playmakers we're used to seeing.

I wouldn't call Mayo not clutch, he did help win the Washington game. I honestly think Mayo's an amazing piece, just young. I don't remember Bruschi being super clutch early on in his career either.

 

[patsfan13]

I think the most important lesson that Ninkovitch can teach us is how LONG it takes for a former college DE to learn the OLB in a 3-4 the way the Pats play it, AND the value of PATIENCE when evaluating the position.

As far as the Vrabel comparison, there are SO many examples. Essentially both were in the league SIX years before they made ANY impact to their teams. Vrabel never had more that 2 sacks in the 4 years he played for the Steelers. Ninko didn't have a sack until he got here.

Things did improve for Vrabel when he came with the Pats, but fans forget that he only had 7 sacks over his first 2 years here. They forget that it wasn't until his SEVENTH season in the league before he became a legitimate rush threat (9.5) AND he only had one double digit sacks in one year (his 7th with the Pats). Compare that to Mike Anderson who did in his first year as a part time player.

The point is that when fans keep praying for the "next" Mike Vrabel, remember that you are praying for a solid OLB who could set the edge, give you some consistent pressure (don't forget that he averaged only 4 sacks/yr over his career), and drop back into coverage.

Well I have news for you, your prayers have been answered. Go back and compare Vrabel's and Ninko's stats for the 2nd and 3rd years on the team. They are almost identical. So before some of you dismiss Ninko as being a "nice little player" who is holding the fort until the "next Mike Vrabel" comes along, check the facts. Vrabel is BACK and his name is Rob Ninkovich.

+1 well said.

And to all those people who are ready to jettison Jermaine Cunningham after just two seasons, take into consideration that Cunningham had a MUCH better rookie season than either of these guys. Not even close. So although, in the lockout shortened off season, Cunningham failed to get ready to play, and in an injury plagued season did NOTHING to contribute. The Vrabel/Ninkovich lesson tells us it is WAY to early to simply dismiss him.

It is also a lesson that explains somewhat BB's reluctance to select college DE's who are going to be OLB's in the NFL in the draft. Generally it takes just too long for them to develop in HIS system.

++++1 re Cunningham. This is a tough D to 'get' for a LB especially coming from a DL position. BTW this speaks very well of Fletcher and his future.

 

[Joey007]

And about our LB situation, If we sign Mario Williams, that'd make our LB core Mayo, Spikes, Ninkovich, and Williams. That'd be a top 5 LB core in the league.

 

[Deus Irae]

Maybe we can agree on the fact that mayo might be an elite ILB but he is not "clutch". Don't confuse clutch and elite. Most elite players are clutch but some just don't have the gene. Aka Lebron. And please I'm just using that as an example. Mayo is in no way the Lebron of the nfl. Lol!

Adam Vinatieri was 1 for 3 in the Carolina Super Bowl. People tend to misunderstand "clutch", by thinking it means "perfect" or even "perfect in all key extra-intense situations", which it doesn't.

 

[Rich<3TheWoodhead]

Adam Vinatieri was 1 for 3 in the Carolina Super Bowl. People tend to misunderstand "clutch", by thinking it means "perfect" or even "perfect in all key extra-intense situations", which it doesn't.

Correct Clutch doesn't mean perfect. The definition is that you seize something I.e an opportunity. Elite players make the right play at important times in the game. Welker is clutch, Brady is clutch. Not perfect but clutch. One play doesn't make or break them because they have shown the clutch gene many times before. When has the clutch gene showed up in Mayo during the playoffs or extra important games? This argument is like figuring out what came first the chicken or the egg. We can agree to disagree.

 

[PittPatriot]

Dislike...button...needed...

Good point. I think we should have the right to click like or dislike. Having only one option is undemocratic.

 

[MSU]

Correct Clutch doesn't mean perfect. The definition is that you seize something I.e an opportunity. Elite players make the right play at important times in the game. Welker is clutch, Brady is clutch. Not perfect but clutch. One play doesn't make or break them because they have shown the clutch gene many times before. When has the clutch gene showed up in Mayo during the playoffs or extra important games? This argument is like figuring out what came first the chicken or the egg. We can agree to disagree.

Welker was super clutch when he dropped that pass in the fourth quarter.

Welker =\= clutch. Brady was clutch, not so much in the playoffs anymore.

 

[Deus Irae]

Correct Clutch doesn't mean perfect. The definition is that you seize something I.e an opportunity. Elite players make the right play at important times in the game. Welker is clutch, Brady is clutch. Not perfect but clutch. One play doesn't make or break them because they have shown the clutch gene many times before. When has the clutch gene showed up in Mayo during the playoffs or extra important games? This argument is like figuring out what came first the chicken or the egg. We can agree to disagree.

adj. Informal

Being or occurring in a tense or critical situation: won the championship by sinking a clutch putt.
Tending to be successful in tense or critical situations: The coach relied on her clutch pitcher.

clutch: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com

In order to 'tend', you have to have enough opportunities for that to be meaningful. Brady's won 3 Super Bowls, had game winning drives in them, and lost 2 Super Bowls after being clutch enough to drive his team for a TD in the last few minutes of the game. Even in his two SB losses, he was clutch. Unfortunately, Eli's responded and gotten the job done himself. Peyton, on the other hand, has repeatedly wet himself in the playoffs and has a sub .500 record largely as a result of that, which is why he's known as a choker.

Mayo, on the other hand, hasn't had enough of the opportunities do be fairly described either way.

 

[PittPatriot]

Correct Clutch doesn't mean perfect. The definition is that you seize something I.e an opportunity. Elite players make the right play at important times in the game. Welker is clutch, Brady is clutch. Not perfect but clutch. One play doesn't make or break them because they have shown the clutch gene many times before. When has the clutch gene showed up in Mayo during the playoffs or extra important games? This argument is like figuring out what came first the chicken or the egg. We can agree to disagree.

Clutch is a made up sensation that we throw around. AV was clutch in our SB years…as was Brady. Recently, I can't recall any "clutch" GAMES by Brady though he tries to get it going late. I love Welker, but I also cannot recall any clutch catches in games…but I do recall his drop.
Mayo is always there to make a tackle, rarely ever out of position - but he is NOT clutch for you? What makes Welker more clutch and Mayo? Is Gronk clutch? How about Gostkowski? Hernandez?

 

[Fencer]

The point is that when fans keep praying for the "next" Mike Vrabel, remember that you are praying for a solid OLB who could set the edge, give you some consistent pressure (don't forget that he averaged only 4 sacks/yr over his career), and drop back into coverage.

Well I have news for you, your prayers have been answered. Go back and compare Vrabel's and Ninko's stats for the 2nd and 3rd years on the team. They are almost identical. So before some of you dismiss Ninko as being a "nice little player" who is holding the fort until the "next Mike Vrabel" comes along, check the facts. Vrabel is BACK and his name is Rob Ninkovich.

Some of Vrabel's popularity came from his extreme versatility and his outstanding team leadership. It's not clear Ninko will match either, or even come close to them. In those respects, Vrabel was indeed truly special.

On the other hand, let's not exaggerate the benefits of Vrabel's versatility. He went from being an outstanding OLB to an adequate ILB when the need arose, but he didn't excel at many positions except Belichick-OLB and goal-line TE.

 

[BradyFTW!]

So are we content with Ninkovich as a starting OLB, or what?

I don't hate the idea. If we get a chance to upgrade and move him to the bench, then by all means take it, but you could do a lot worse. If he continues to improve at something resembling his current pace, all the better.

 

[JackBauer]

I don't hate the idea. If we get a chance to upgrade and move him to the bench, then by all means take it, but you could do worse.

That's pretty much where I'm at. I think upgrading the other OLB position, as well as expending resources to shore up DE/CB/S would be a better use of resources than trying to upgrade Ninkovich.

I think if he's your worst starting linebacker, that's something I can live with. Especially as he seems to be improving continuously as he's out there.

 

[patsinthesnow]

As of right now, I'd call him a good starting OLB. Great, no, but an all around good player that keeps improving.

There are quite a few defenses that would love to have Ninkovich out there starting. (Jets, Eagles, Giants, Saints, Panthers, Bucs, Bills, Colts, etc)

Not every team has a LB core like the 49ers, Steelers, or Ravens.

 

[Rich<3TheWoodhead]

Welker was super clutch when he dropped that pass in the fourth quarter.

Welker =\= clutch. Brady was clutch, not so much in the playoffs anymore.

Just look at welker every 3rd down entire playoffs and season except for the 1 catch that shall not be named here. As I said one play doesnt erase his clutchness from his entire career.