Pioli discusses the evolution of grading players due to changes in the NFL

[Ron Sellers]

Here's an interesting piece in today's Boston Herald. Former Patriots VP of player personnel Scott Pioli discusses changes the Patriots made in the way they grade players due to the changes in the way the game is played today; specifically in regards to how sub packages are so prevalent now that you don't look at certain players, or the positions they play (such as a nickel corner) as a backup.

Rap Sheet » Allow former Patriots VP Scott Pioli to remind us about the Patriots scouting system…

“The last two years at the Patriots, when it came down to stacking the board, Bill and I were getting frustrated with the stacking because the game had changed and evolved,” Pioli said. “We were talking about how the value of the third corner (is) really (that of) 60 percent players. And someone who is a 60 percent player was… the third corner is the starter in today’s game. And it was back then. We were talking about guys who could be third corners and not ranking them high enough. They weren’t given high enough grades.”

Now, with as many teams as are putting their nickel and dime packages on the field for more than 50 percent of the game, they were starters. Pioli and Belichick, for drafting purposes, wanted to make sure a third CB or third WR wasn’t ranked as a backup… since they weren’t.

“The reality is, the third corner, the third receiver, the sub safety, you can’t just say, he’s a backup corner,” Pioli continued. “The value of that backup corner is much greater. What I spent a lot of time doing is re-doing our whole grading system. Thomas (Dimitroff) and I, then spent more time re-doing the grading system. Me, Bill (Belichick), Ernie Adams, and Thomas and then we started using that the last couple years. Then, Thomas leaves and took it down (to Atlanta), Phil (Emery) took it from Thomas. And when I came to Kansas City, I tried teaching this system that’s different. Because everyone essentially uses the same grading system and fortunately Phil knew it. So, when I hired Phil, he came in and he helped teach it.”​

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

Always anticipating or ahead of the curve and always approaching any subject from a value standpoint. I would bet they evaluate veterans and their own roster the same way.

“The last two years at the Patriots, when it came down to stacking the board, Bill and I were getting frustrated with the stacking because the game had changed and evolved,” Pioli said. “We were talking about how the value of the third corner (is) really (that of) 60 percent players. And someone who is a 60 percent player was… the third corner is the starter in today’s game. And it was back then. We were talking about guys who could be third corners and not ranking them high enough. They weren’t given high enough grades.”

Now, with as many teams as are putting their nickel and dime packages on the field for more than 50 percent of the game, they were starters. Pioli and Belichick, for drafting purposes, wanted to make sure a third CB or third WR wasn’t ranked as a backup… since they weren’t.

“The reality is, the third corner, the third receiver, the sub safety, you can’t just say, he’s a backup corner,” Pioli continued. “The value of that backup corner is much greater. What I spent a lot of time doing is re-doing our whole grading system. Thomas (Dimitroff) and I, then spent more time re-doing the grading system. Me, Bill (Belichick), Ernie Adams, and Thomas and then we started using that the last couple years. Then, Thomas leaves and took it down (to Atlanta), Phil (Emery) took it from Thomas. And when I came to Kansas City, I tried teaching this system that’s different.

“It’s not anything that’s genius,” said Pioli, now the Chiefs GM. “It’s not anything. It’s just trying to look at today’s league and understanding matching value vs. just saying the guy’s a starting running back. The value of a third running back or a sub-package running back, a guy who can pick up the blitz – Kevin Faulk – well, he may not be a starter, but he has tremendous value. He’s not really just a backup running back.

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/s...remind-us-about-the-patriots-scouting-system/

 

[nabwong]

Re: Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

The biggest crutch in life is tradition (social pressure). No matter what we do (science, religion, sports, politics, etc), change is always resisted. This is partly why this organization is so successful. BB is a student of history but he knows that he can't implement history. What he studies is the changes throughout history.

 

[condon84]

Re: Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

It's crazy to hear that BB values the nickle corner as essentially another starter yet we've drafted poorly in that area the past few years. Whoever is evaluating the CBs for the scouting department needs to get his ***** together.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

So they're elevating "backup" defensive backs grades because they technically won't be backups. Drafting nickel backs in the 2nd round and wondering why they don't work out. Is this why the drafted Wheatley over Terrell Thomas? Sometimes they out think themselves.

 

[Ron Sellers]

So they're elevating "backup" defensive backs grades because they technically won't be backups. Drafting nickel backs in the 2nd round and wondering why they don't work out. Is this why the drafted Wheatley over Terrell Thomas? Sometimes they out think themselves.

Your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense since those two play the same position.



With the benefit of hindsight anyone can play the 'shoulda' drafted this guy instead' game with all 32 teams.

 

[Fencer]

Similarly, the #4 CB stands on average to play a lot more than the #4 OT, and substantially more than even the #3.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense since those two play the same position.



With the benefit of hindsight anyone can play the 'shoulda' drafted this guy instead' game with all 32 teams.

They play the same position but Wheatley's grade may very well have been artificially elevated because they envisioned him a a "starting nickel back".

I didn't need the benefit of hindsight to know which one to pick, I wanted them to choose Thomas or Godfrey at the time and disliked the Wheatley pick. Pioli just explained the probable reasoning behind the choice.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Pioli tried to use another example but he should have avoided the nickle back at all cost since you guys are now fixated on that...and entirely missing the point of the comments...which of course isn't all that unusual hereabouts.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Pioli tried to use another example but he should have avoided the nickle back at all cost since you guys are now fixated on that...and entirely missing the point of the comments...which of course isn't all that unusual hereabouts.

I made one comment about a player before having to defend it against the always present "benefit of hindsight argument." That hardly constitutes a fixation.

And judging by what Pioli said, what has been invested in the position and the quality of players at the position on the roster are, I would say it's a worthwhile discussion.

 

[Deus Irae]

Your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense since those two play the same position.



With the benefit of hindsight anyone can play the 'shoulda' drafted this guy instead' game with all 32 teams.

This is a message board where people post on the draft for months at a time(if not all year long), and where others spend the draft days posting their opinions about players in real time . The idea that it's all hindsight is just not a valid argument.

 

[Ron Sellers]

They play the same position but Wheatley's grade may very well have been artificially elevated because they envisioned him a a "starting nickel back".

I didn't need the benefit of hindsight to know which one to pick, I wanted them to choose Thomas or Godfrey at the time and disliked the Wheatley pick. Pioli just explained the probable reasoning behind the choice.

Congratulations, you know more about college players than the Patriots entire staff of college scouts do. Please do all fans of this team a favor and convince the Pats to hire you so that we won't ever again have to go through the disappointment of the team drafting the wrong player.

I made one comment about a player before having to defend it against the always present "benefit of hindsight argument." That hardly constitutes a fixation.

And judging by what Pioli said, what has been invested in the position and the quality of players at the position on the roster are, I would say it's a worthwhile discussion.

They both play corner. With Samuel moving on they needed someone else on the outside at the time of the draft. Why the assumption that Wheatley was drafted strictly to play nickel? If they had liked what they saw from Thomas they would have drafted him to play corner opposite Hobbs, then added either a free agent or a later draftee with nickel in mind.

The Pats made a mistake with Wheatley vs your binky Thomas, or Godfrey; it happens unfortunately. I'm not entirely convinced that it would be any different had they graded the players/roles in the traditional way versus giving the roles of sub packages a higher value.

 

[BTTA]

What I'd love to see, and probably never will (unless BB's eventual book is a lot more forthcoming than I expect) is how the positions are rated relative to each other. Is a #3 corner worth more than a #2 guard, for example? Etc.

 

[chris66]

some of those 06,07 picks clearly fall on bellichick. for some reason those 2 drafts he went away from the system he and lombardi had designed. chad jackson was a perfect example. None of the scouts, Pioli or Demitroff wanted him, but BB went away from the system because of his speed.

If you havent read MIKe Holley's "WAR ROOM" yet its a must read.

 

[borg]

I beieve I understand the nickel CB drafting system under BB. Draft JAG WRs and convert them after you eject the 3/4 of the secondary

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Re: Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

It's crazy to hear that BB values the nickle corner as essentially another starter yet we've drafted poorly in that area the past few years. Whoever is evaluating the CBs for the scouting department needs to get his ***** together.

Did we draft poor corners or did we not coach them up and put them in a position to succeed?

Is it fair to Butler, Wilhite and Merriweather to say you have to cover the best WR's in the game for 6 plus seconds because we have no pass rush and we aren't drafting any pass rushers. Oh and to help you DB's out, here is coach Boyer who doesn;t really have a clue what he is doing, but he works hard and puts in tons of hours. Good luck guys.

It all starts up front!

 

[BPF]

Re: Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

CB's are one of the toughest positions to evaluate, let's not pretend that it's not. As far as the Terrell Thomas v Wheatley argument above, it goes to the fact that not every player can play in all schemes. The ideal CB can play press, off & zone. The BIG problem is there aren’t many of those guys around, especially after the top 10-15 slots in the draft. Most players are better in one skill. Many taller CBs have trouble in off coverage because of their size. Shorter CBs with suddenness can do that better but are not as effective in press. So you look at player and see how he fits your scheme if you're drafting in the 2nd, 3rd Rd etc and see if he can perform one specific function well and maybe he can develop his all around game with experience.

In any case the most important trait a CB must have is speed. I'm not talking track speed because plenty of players have succeeded with out that but they need to run the 40 under 4.5. A player may be a great college CB but if he's a 4.6 guy he will not get drafted and he will not be successful as a CB. He may be able to succeed in ST's but not on defense. It's a position where speed comes first then all the other factors, if I were doing the scouting I wouldn't draft any player that ran lower than 4.4 in the first 2 Rds.

 

[condon84]

Re: Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

Did we draft poor corners or did we not coach them up and put them in a position to succeed?

Is it fair to Butler, Wilhite and Merriweather to say you have to cover the best WR's in the game for 6 plus seconds because we have no pass rush and we aren't drafting any pass rushers. Oh and to help you DB's out, here is coach Boyer who doesn;t really have a clue what he is doing, but he works hard and puts in tons of hours. Good luck guys.

It all starts up front!

If these guys end up becoming better players then our coaching staff certainly has to shoulder some of the blame for them not developing. However, BB saw something that these guys lacked in practice and in games and deemed it necessary to cut them and instead play guys that were undrafted like Ihedigbo and Arrington.

 

[manxman2601]

Re: Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

The biggest crutch in life is tradition (social pressure). No matter what we do (science, religion, sports, politics, etc), change is always resisted. This is partly why this organization is so successful. BB is a student of history but he knows that he can't implement history. What he studies is the changes throughout history.

From a philosophical standpoint I'm afraid to say that this so wrong. Tradition is what moulds us. We are the sum of everything that happened before us. Change is not in and of itself a good thing. What tradition, history and custom provide is the natural brake to unfettered and inadvisable change. Evolution is better than revolution.

 

[MaineMan]

I beieve I understand the nickel CB drafting system under BB. Draft JAG WRs and convert them after you eject the 3/4 of the secondary

What "JAG WRs" were drafted and converted to DB?