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Coming up small in big situations


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David Tyree, Jake Ballard, and Mario Manningham. None are great receivers. But in all three games, they made a huge catch that turned out to be the difference. Welker and Branch couldn't do the same.

In our previous Super Bowls, David Patten, Troy Brown, young Deion Branch, and David Givens all made those clutch catches. To me that's been the difference between winning or losing right there.

well, another minute on the clock in either game and we could be talking about both differently....also, the pats executed with patience throughout the game, preferring the other team to make the mistakes.

did brady ever cause a safety in one of those wins?

brady had a 70 rating against the raiders in 2001, his first playoff game......he played better in that game than he did last sunday.

watch both games.......tell me where he looks scared

this team now plays like they are afraid someone is going to take something away.
 
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That's fine, but 97% of teams do not lose the exact same way over and over again.



97% of teams never get in that position in the first place......:rolleyes:
 
97% of teams never get in that position in the first place......:rolleyes:

Very true, but that doesn't negate my point in any way. Getting hurt is great. Losing there sucks. Knowing the team is going to cough the game up due to learned behavior is the worst.

What is the definition of insanity? Repeating the same process over and over and expecting different results.
 
well, another minute on the clock in either game and we could be talking about both differently....also, the pats executed with patience throughout the game, preferring the other team to make the mistakes.

did brady ever cause a safety in one of those wins?

brady had a 70 rating against the raiders in 2001, his first playoff game......he played better in that game than he did last sunday.

watch both games.......tell me where he looks scared

this team now plays like they are afraid someone is going to take something away.

in your imagination
 
David Tyree, Jake Ballard, and Mario Manningham. None are great receivers. But in all three games, they made a huge catch that turned out to be the difference. Welker and Branch couldn't do the same.

In our previous Super Bowls, David Patten, Troy Brown, young Deion Branch, and David Givens all made those clutch catches. To me that's been the difference between winning or losing right there.

Someone mentioned on the radio that the undersized JAG known as Patten made the same exact catch Welker didn't for a critical first down for a touchdown in the EZ for Bledsoe and Brady in the 2001 AFCC and SB games... Actually in both cases he was twisting to adjust and the throw was even a little higher plus he had to keep his feet inbounds, too. It was a different time then, before mustache growing sillyness and twitter accounts so maybe it was easier to just focus on making plays.
 
Someone mentioned on the radio that the undersized JAG known as Patten made the same exact catch Welker didn't for a critical first down for a touchdown in the EZ for Bledsoe and Brady in the 2001 AFCC and SB games... Actually in both cases he was twisting to adjust and the throw was even a little higher plus he had to keep his feet inbounds, too. It was a different time then, before mustache growing sillyness and twitter accounts so maybe it was easier to just focus on making plays.

It boils down to making critical plays in pressure situations. Back then we had key players making critical plays like Brady, Brown, Law, Bruschi, Harrison McGinest, etc. Even supporting players made key contributions like Patten, Givens, Smith and more importantly did their jobs in critical drives. Those game winning drives orchestrated by Brady in the biggest games happened because eveybody did their job from our OL to our receivers. With our team presently, we seem to have a talented roster, but we no longer are able to make the critical plays when we needed to. Mankins whiffing on that block, Welker dropping that pass, Brady under throwing Gronk, and no one in our defense stepping up to make one last game ending play on the Giants last drive. Both our defense and offense just lack that extra something that has prevented us from winning it all.
 
Very true, but that doesn't negate my point in any way. Getting hurt is great. Losing there sucks. Knowing the team is going to cough the game up due to learned behavior is the worst.

What is the definition of insanity? Repeating the same process over and over and expecting different results.

So the Patriots should change their entire structure to specifically beat a team that is in the other conference?

Belichick and Kraft's plan has been to build a competitive team every year, one that has a legitimate chance to get in to the playoffs, and roll the dice from there. Once you get in to the playoffs it's a crapshoot. Consider some of the recent SB winners: 9-7 Giants; 6th seed 10-6 Packers; 9-7 Cardinals were one play away from winning it all; 10-6 5th seed Giants; etc.

Learned behavior? They're 29-6 in the last two seasons. If there is anything they have learned it is how to win, not lose. If the only thing you focus on is those few losses then the only thing you will see is those losses. Obviously there are areas such as pass coverage that need to be improved upon, but this team is far superior to the 2008-09 teams.

If the Pats lost in the Super Bowl the way the Bills did from 1991-93 or the way the Broncos did from 1986-89, then I would say that there is indeed a need for a fundamental shift in the way the team is built. Three losses over five years by a total of 11 points? I don't think so.
 
Since 2007 the Patriots have consistently played small in big games. Their offense has been cautious, TB12 has been ordinary.

If Tom Brady plays ordinary Sunday, the Patriots lose by at least 3 TDs.

If that sounds laughable, I'd point out that the league MVP played a much more ordinary game for a much more complete team and lost on his home field to the Giants by 17.
 
i love me some wes walker but the guy has only had more then 60 yards in one of the 7 playoffs games he has played in with the pats, need to find a way to run the football in big games
 
Funny thing about the OP. The skill player who is the real deal dropped a ball that hit him in the hands, a play he should make no matter what Bedard says.
Manningham was just a jag in NY until he made a catch he never makes.
 
If Tom Brady plays ordinary Sunday, the Patriots lose by at least 3 TDs.

If that sounds laughable, I'd point out that the league MVP played a much more ordinary game for a much more complete team and lost on his home field to the Giants by 17.

I don't care about Green Bay, I only care about how the Patriots play, and they played well enough to lose the biggest game in America. Wes Welker is the teams best offensive player, he is usually a clutch player, but on Sunday he dropped the biggest pass he ever should have caught.

This is a personel issue as much as a pressure issue. Put a burner on the outside who can catch the ball and the outcome is probably different. Put a Champ Baily type player at defensive back or Ed Reed type at safety and the defense probably wins the game. Put a little pressure on Eli throughout the entire game, instead of just in the first quarter and he doesn't have time to hit Manningham on the sidelines.

In the end, it comes down to making plays. The Giants made them when the Patriots didn't. They weren't that much better than the Pats, but when it counted they had players come up big. The Patriots would probably have won the game had Welker made that catch. The pass could have been better, but it wasn't that bad, Welker just plain dropped it.
 
The bottom line is this


You can have all the fun and excitement of scoring frenzy offense almost all season long,but in the end the usual result of the Super Bowl champion is playing lights out defense,having a good running game instead of one dementional and getting turnovers either by force or just being there at the right time and place.

The Giants have done that in both Super Bowls and the Pats failed...its as simple as that.

Defense DOES win championships when all is said and done.

Now it's time to focus on that because McGinest,Vrabel and Harrison are not coming back and have yet to been replaced adequately. - Spikes and Chung have potential to be solid for a long time,but time will tell.
 
I don't care about Green Bay, I only care about how the Patriots play, and they played well enough to lose the biggest game in America. Wes Welker is the teams best offensive player, he is usually a clutch player, but on Sunday he dropped the biggest pass he ever should have caught.

This is a personel issue as much as a pressure issue. Put a burner on the outside who can catch the ball and the outcome is probably different. Put a Champ Baily type player at defensive back or Ed Reed type at safety and the defense probably wins the game. Put a little pressure on Eli throughout the entire game, instead of just in the first quarter and he doesn't have time to hit Manningham on the sidelines.

In the end, it comes down to making plays. The Giants made them when the Patriots didn't. They weren't that much better than the Pats, but when it counted they had players come up big. The Patriots would probably have won the game had Welker made that catch. The pass could have been better, but it wasn't that bad, Welker just plain dropped it.

I kind of find it funny when people say that if we had a burner on the outside we might have won.

I distinctly remember having a burner in the 2007 Super Bowl called Randy Moss.....and we even had a better defense then but we didn't win that game either.....Why? Because even that 2007 defense failed to hold the lead.

In the end it comes down to running the ball effectively,playing great D,consuming time off the clock and creating or jumping on turnovers.

You can win 12-14-16 games every regular season but if you game goes the way it has in the past 2 Super Bowls it's likely to have similar results.

It's time for a change of philosophy in the playoffs,less on Brady's shoulders to will the team to victory for god sakes is a start.
 
I kind of find it funny when people say that if we had a burner on the outside we might have won.

I distinctly remember having a burner in the 2007 Super Bowl called Randy Moss.....and we even had a better defense then but we didn't win that game either.....Why? Because even that 2007 defense failed to hold the lead.

In the end it comes down to running the ball effectively,playing great D,consuming time off the clock and creating or jumping on turnovers.

You can win 12-14-16 games every regular season but if you game goes the way it has in the past 2 Super Bowls it's likely to have similar results.

It's time for a change of philosophy in the playoffs,less on Brady's shoulders to will the team to victory for god sakes is a start.

the pats had the players to win and came very close. I think the pats had the right plays at their disposal to win, I jus tthink their tendencies were off. I think brady's and BB's ego get in the way of reverting to a dink and dunk and using the no huddle sna drepeatably dropping the ball off to woodhead, green-ellis, and hernandez until the giants put 8 in the box.....I think it is a repeat of playing to win their way rather than playing to win.....yes, I will try as hard as I can, but I will do it my way. they simply did not pull out all the stops to win
 
Since 2007 the Patriots have consistently played small in big games. Their offense has been cautious, TB12 has been ordinary. I thought that maybe they had gotten past that tendency this year, but when it counted they failed to live up to the moment, but they showed that they are close against the Jets.

Against the Jets, in the second game, they were HUGE! They played flawless football, beat the hell out of the Jets on both sides of the ball and generally played like Champions, making us forget that they played small the game before against the Giants. Against the Ravens they played well, but still allowed them to drive the length of the field to miss a game tying field goal. Brady played well between the 20's, but in the money zone on the field he stank, and the bomb was a horrible decision on his part, as bad as any I have seen him make throughout his career. Against the Giants in the SB, the Pats played well at points, their defense played very well for 55 minutes, but when the money was on the line they choaked up a chicken bone.

I bring this pain up to point out how badly Belichick has managed the roster and how flawed this team has become. On offense they have two tight ends who are All Pro quality, Wes Welker, despite his drop, is the real deal and the rest of the skill players are Jags. On defense their front four are pretty good, their libebacking core is solid but slow and their secondary is the worst in the league. Their pass rush disappears for long periods of the game. If not for the coaching genius of Belichick this would be a 4 and 12 team, maybe 6 and 10.

Welker dropped a ball that would have won the Super Bowl, but Brach dropped one right after that would have given the Pats a first down. Bardy launches a bomb to Gonk, and he lets the LB intercept it instead of making sure he couldn't. Hernandez drops a pass across the middle on the last drive wasting 5 seconds. Belichick challenges a catch that all replays show was a catch. Mankins gives up a sack in the last minute of the game. All of those are examples people playing small in big situations.

I am really high on the Pats future, but this team was so flawed that even making the playoffs was a miracle. The defense needs to be rebuilt and the offense needs a deep threat, and maybe a running back who can, you know, actually run the ball. Josh McDanials came up small in the last Super Bowl, so here hoping that he learned from that failure. When the Pats won the first time, the play calling came up big, and the bit players on the team delivered under pressure. The next two had a defense that allowed the offense to play conservatively when it had to and rely on field goals at the end. This team has a bad defense and the play calling was pretty timid.

We are at a fork between really good and just ok. The choice is for GM Bill to make. Two firsts and two seconds are a lot of ammo, if Bill decides to use them. This is a year to use them all, and maybe trade next years for the missing link.


Nice post. As to what BB should do in the draft, I'm worried. How many times over the years do we beg them to do certain things in the draft (don't trade down, please draft DEs/OLBs, and they don't? I've given up hoping for the best. Their lack of ability to pick the correct DE/OLB, WR or DB got old a long time ago. Will this year be any different?
 
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I know Sunday's loss is disappointing, but let's try to have at least an ounce of perspective here. 97% of all teams end up not winning the Super Bowl each and every year.

Agreed, but the very point that you use to cheer up fans is the EXACT reason why I feel we should be even more depressed. You are right, 97% of the teams do NOT win the Super Bowl, and THAT is why it's even more critical to capitalize on your chances when the opportunity to win one is oh so close.

I know, kind of a downer, but that's just how I see it.

We've seen it from the Packers this year. You can be a great team, go 15-1, and still lose your first playoff game.

We five minutes of good football away from winning the Super Bowl and the opportunity has now passed us by. On Sunday night we were five minutes from winning a championship, while now we are 360 days and a boatload of hard work and luck from another CHANCE to win one.
 
I kind of find it funny when people say that if we had a burner on the outside we might have won.

I distinctly remember having a burner in the 2007 Super Bowl called Randy Moss.....and we even had a better defense then but we didn't win that game either.....Why? Because even that 2007 defense failed to hold the lead.

In the end it comes down to running the ball effectively,playing great D,consuming time off the clock and creating or jumping on turnovers.

You can win 12-14-16 games every regular season but if you game goes the way it has in the past 2 Super Bowls it's likely to have similar results.

It's time for a change of philosophy in the playoffs,less on Brady's shoulders to will the team to victory for god sakes is a start.

The Patriots do not have the required mix of players needed to beat good teams in big games. They become very predictable, as was shown when the deep pass was covered on the Patriots first offensive play. Wes Welker is a very good slot reciever, but he can't consistently get open on go routes. Look at the rest of the recieving corps; Dione Branch wasn't very fast when he was drafted, Ocho wasn't used, TiQuan Underwood was a street free agent. In 2007 Randy Moss was a high mantainence reciever, a guy who had to get the ball thrown his way or he would sulk, plus he was very talented. He was the best option on most plays. If the Patriots could ever develop a wide out, he wouldn't be as big a diva and wouldn't demand to be the center of the offensive scheme.

The Pats were one impact player away from another Super Bowl, maybe even a healthy Gronkowski away. Take your pick, WR, DB, OLB, DE, any one of them would have made a difference on Sunday.
 
The Patriots do not have the required mix of players needed to beat good teams in big games. They become very predictable, as was shown when the deep pass was covered on the Patriots first offensive play. Wes Welker is a very good slot reciever, but he can't consistently get open on go routes. Look at the rest of the recieving corps; Dione Branch wasn't very fast when he was drafted, Ocho wasn't used, TiQuan Underwood was a street free agent. In 2007 Randy Moss was a high mantainence reciever, a guy who had to get the ball thrown his way or he would sulk, plus he was very talented. He was the best option on most plays. If the Patriots could ever develop a wide out, he wouldn't be as big a diva and wouldn't demand to be the center of the offensive scheme.

The Pats were one impact player away from another Super Bowl, maybe even a healthy Gronkowski away. Take your pick, WR, DB, OLB, DE, any one of them would have made a difference on Sunday.

Pass Rush was all but non existent on Sunday...I think Andre Carter might have helped there,certainly couldn't have hurt.

Eli had way too much time to throw and an Elite QB will kill you everytime,you can easily see that when the defense actually got in Eli's face he panicked and threw it off target.

People dont realize of how much the team misses a combo like Vrabel and McGinest.....without 2 solid pass rushers from both ends and a good blitzing LB, its hard to win SBs
 
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