The 2011 Veteran acquisitions in review

[patchick]

Having just seen a couple of unrelated threads that descended into bashing the Ochocinco & Haynesworth signings, I took a moment and made a list of the significant veterans signed in this offseason who played in at least one game. Here's what I came up with:

Mark Anderson
Andre Carter
Shaun Ellis
Albert Haynesworth
Matt Light
Logan Mankins
Chad Ochocinco
Gerard Warren
Brian Waters

That's 9 players including 4 key starters and 1 semi-starter for a Superbowl team, and only 1 (Mankins) was a long-term, big-money commitment.

For perspective, I tried to compile a comparable list for 2010. Can this really be all?

Alge Crumpler
Gerard Warren
Vince Wilfork

It sure looks like the combo of the nonexistent offseason, compressed FA period and shortened camp led to a strategic decision to throw a ton of mid-priced veterans into the mix and see who floated to the top. On balance, I'd call the strategy a clear success. How about you?

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I totally agree. I know everyone expects 100% perfection all the time, and BB is no different, but realistically, we really did well all things considered.

I always associate player acquisitions with poker, since it is always a bit of a gamble. But for many of these signings, they were low-risk, high-reward scenarios where we didn't have to bet much, lost a few hands, but got huge payouts on the hands we did win.

Yes, Haynesworth didn't work out and Ocho hasn't done much. But more people were more excited about those moves than Andre Carter or Mark Anderson, though they really were the same type of bets.

For around $10M and a 5th round pick in 2013, we got 5 DL players that combined for 22 sacks and 67 tackles. That's less than some top DL earn for half that production.

We gambled $2M on Brian Waters. He could have been washed-up. Maybe the side switch would be too much. Maybe he wouldn't fit in, since a similar organization in KC decided they were done with him. But it worked, and we got a Pro Bowl RG for less than our kicker made.

Everyone rips the Haynesworth deal but it easily could have turned out that Al worked out, and maybe Carter was too old. Or maybe Anderson. These are all gambles, and you can't gamble and expect to win every single time. But we got more than our money's worth, well more than anyone could reasonably expect, and to complain about the one or two lost hands while ignoring the entire body of work is just ridiculous.

 

[captain stone]

Having just seen a couple of unrelated threads that descended into bashing the Ochocinco & Haynesworth signings, I took a moment and made a list of the significant veterans signed in this offseason who played in at least one game. Here's what I came up with:

Mark Anderson
Andre Carter
Shaun Ellis
Albert Haynesworth
Matt Light
Logan Mankins
Chad Ochocinco
Gerard Warren
Brian Waters

Hits:
Waters
Carter (boy do I miss him)
Anderson
Warren (barely; but for the same $, who else was avail.?)

Misses:
Ellis (not that much worse than Warren, but for the $$$ he makes, def. a miss)
Fat Albert (a waste of time & a draft pick, but at least he didn't cost us as much as...)
Ocho-feckin-Stinko ($5.5M AND 2 draft picks?!? for 1 goddamned catch per game?)

I don't consider Light & Mankins in this group because they were long-time vets of this organization
who re-signed.

What makes the Ellis & Stinko signings even worse than the Haynesworthless signing is the possibility
of finding players at those 2 positions who could've provided better production at much less cost.

To be fair, adding cast-offs Polite, McDonald, Thomas, Aiken, Diggy, Nate Jones, Molden & esp. Moore
should also be taken into consideration, with only Kid 'n Play, Koutouvides & Mal Williams in the group
who should thank Bill every day for being given an NFL paycheck.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

For perspective, I tried to compile a comparable list for 2010. Can this really be all?

Alge Crumpler
Gerard Warren
Vince Wilfork

It sure looks like the combo of the nonexistent offseason, compressed FA period and shortened camp led to a strategic decision to throw a ton of mid-priced veterans into the mix and see who floated to the top. On balance, I'd call the strategy a clear success. How about you?

You could probably add Deion Branch into last years total. I know he came in mid-season, but we did have to go out of our way to get him.

 

[Jared]

Why do fans get so upset about how much money a guy like Ellis is making on a one year contract? It isn't like it is the fan's money.

Complaining about large signing bonuses or bad draft picks I can understand, as they can prevent the team from improving in the future, but who cares about the salary of a veteran on a one year contract, especially when the team isn't really hurting for cap space.

 

[patchick]

I don't consider Light & Mankins in this group because they were long-time vets of this organization who re-signed.

Mankins I can see because of cap issues, but Light? It was nothing like a sure thing to resign him, especially after using the #1 pick on an OT.

Regardless, if you drop those two you clearly drop Wilfork from the previous year's list, so the main point remains: this crop of veterans was unusual and looks like a strategic decision to shop in bulk and sort out the wheat from the chaff as the season developed.

What makes the Ellis & Stinko signings even worse than the Haynesworthless signing is the possibility
of finding players at those 2 positions who could've provided better production at much less cost.

So there were a bunch of quality veteran DEs hanging around for cheap who the Patriots DIDN'T sign? Because the way I remember it, we were all laughing during TC that they were trying to conquer the market on veteran linemen. And the 3 DEs they did sign for a total of $7.7 million and almost no future cap implications combined for 21 sacks.

 

[captain stone]

So there were a bunch of quality veteran DEs hanging around for cheap who the Patriots DIDN'T sign?

Who would've provided us better production than Ellis & Stinko? Yes.

 

[patchick]

Who would've provided us better production than Ellis & Stinko? Yes.

Ah, cap'n we can always count on you! I start a thread with the premise that everybody keeps screaming and getting red in the face about Ocho, but if you step back and look at the full scope of veteran acquisitions it's unusual and interesting...

And you respond with "bbbbut...Ocho! OCHO!!! :enranged:"



Here's a useful exercise: list all the teams that made better, more impactful and more cost-effective total veteran acquisitions than the Patriots this offseason.

 

[Uncle Rico]

Anybody remember the DL they signed, the first (and I think only) player signed before the lockout?

Edit: In the spirit of the thread ... no harm, no foul.

 

[Fencer]

Let's look at personnel moves by position group:

QB -- nothing much impacted this year, nor was needed to.

RB -- returning vets BJGE and Woodhead dropped off a bit after great years. Rookies only made modest contributions the first year. Vet pickup was pretty minor.

WR -- vet pickup didn't work out. Passing game was great anyway.

OL -- draft and vet pickups both were mightily successful. This is a Very Good Thing, given that one starter retired and two other starters had ghastly injury years.

TE -- new additions didn't work out. Was the best group in the league anyway. Indeed, in some people's opinion, it was the best TE group in the entire history of the game of football.

K/P/LS -- see QB.

DL/3-4 OLB -- lots of things were tried. To many people's surprise, they were tried in vet FA, not the draft. For at least one season, the net result was a huge success -- a DL that's been very effective in the playoffs despite having three of the top pass rushers (counting Carter, Wright, Pryor but not Cunningham) go down with season-ending injuries, only one of them (Wright) very predictably.

ILB/4-3 OLB -- see QB.

DB -- Ihedigbo and Moore seem like good scrap-heap pickups, and Dowling shouldn't be written off. Otherwise, no comment.

 

[supafly]

Having just seen a couple of unrelated threads that descended into bashing the Ochocinco & Haynesworth signings, I took a moment and made a list of the significant veterans signed in this offseason who played in at least one game. Here's what I came up with:

Mark Anderson
Andre Carter
Shaun Ellis
Albert Haynesworth
Matt Light
Logan Mankins
Chad Ochocinco
Gerard Warren
Brian Waters

That's 9 players including 4 key starters and 1 semi-starter for a Superbowl team, and only 1 (Mankins) was a long-term, big-money commitment.

For perspective, I tried to compile a comparable list for 2010. Can this really be all?

Alge Crumpler
Gerard Warren
Vince Wilfork

It sure looks like the combo of the nonexistent offseason, compressed FA period and shortened camp led to a strategic decision to throw a ton of mid-priced veterans into the mix and see who floated to the top. On balance, I'd call the strategy a clear success. How about you?

First of all, I think this thread is a very good one. It's nice to get away from some of the other more predictable subjects.

I think when looking at the list as a whole, it really stands out that we had one of the most successful free agency classes out of the entire NFL; which is not always the case here in N.England. The 2011 free agency class took care of BOTH re-signing our own (Light, Mankins, Warren--all pretty significant signings, even Warren has really held his own in my opinion), and also some very key signings from other teams (Waters, Anderson, Carter---all 3 enormous signings, just great...) and also Ellis, whose fate has been mediocre, but could still pay off with a big play or two in the SB.

Of course, like anything else, you'll have your 'meh' signings or weak additions also. Much like the draft, free agency is also hit or miss. We've seen this with the Haynesworth signing which didn't pan out, and also the Ocho signing, which didn't work out yet still provided some depth at a ridiculous cost.

The good thing is that both were not extremely bad acquisitions in terms of having to give that much up, so we don't have to re-live the Duane Starks or Derrick Burgess 3rd round losses like in year's past. Even including the high salary from #85, these 2 were both reletively low-risk and high-reward. Of course, it could still be argued that we have not seen the absolute end result with the #85 experiment, as unlikely as any production seems at this point. However, should he come up with a big catch (unikely, but not totally impossible) on the night of February 5th, many will be able to live with the signing in a better way...

Overall, I would count at least 6 of the 9 signings as "positive" ones, and that's a whopping 67% success rate. I do not think we see that again for a while, as this yr's crop of FA's has been pretty incredible as a whole.

Like I said though, even a guy like Ellis or (as unlikely as it seems) Ocho can still contribute on some level in our final and most important game. Even if either one shows up at all, it was an expensive depth move, but not the end of the world.

It should be noted that going out and getting a WR here, whether that's through the draft or FA is awfully tough....we've seen failures on every level now. The draft signings (Bethel Johnson, Chad Jackson, Taylor Price, Brandon Tate) and the FA's (David Terrell, Donald Hayes, Joey Galloway, Torry Holt, Ocho Cinco) have all failed miserably due to lack of chemistry with Brady and lack of understanding the offensive schemes and routes. It will be interesting to see what the future holds there.

 

[supafly]

All in all, I think it was a great balance by going out and gaining some very key veteran presences, in terms of off-setting the youth of the team.

This is a very important realization that I did not fully come to terms with until looking at your list. Thank you for the great thread.

Belichick may have seriously done his finest job this yr in regards to our free agency moves. On top of that, I was pretty happy with the draft picks, considering that they were geared towards the future.

The 2011 season was chock full of great acquisitions, and shouldn't be overlooked by the lousy Ochocinco or Haynesworth issues. It's too bad that the ignorant mediots will not see it that way.

 

[patsfan-1982]

who would have known befor the season started that Carter and anderson would trun into two of the best pass rushers in the BB era and Waters would be the best RG Brady has ever had, good job by the front office

 

[DarrylS]

who would have known befor the season started that Carter and anderson would trun into two of the best pass rushers in the BB era and Waters would be the best RG Brady has ever had, good job by the front office

Have to add Warren into this mix, he is not all that sexy, but when he is on the field his presence is noticable... the past few games he has been in on some pretty big players...

With so many young'uns on the field, these guys are needed off the field or in the clubhouse as they show the new guys how to act in the NFL..

 

[patchick]

It should be noted that going out and getting a WR here, whether that's through the draft or FA is awfully tough....we've seen failures on every level now. The draft signings (Bethel Johnson, Chad Jackson, Taylor Price, Brandon Tate) and the FA's (David Terrell, Donald Hayes, Joey Galloway, Torry Holt, Ocho Cinco) have all failed miserably due to lack of chemistry with Brady and lack of understanding the offensive schemes and routes. It will be interesting to see what the future holds there.

I think this will be a key topic for the offseason. We've seen pretty clearly that "NFL receiver" and "PATRIOTS receiver" are not nearly the same thing, and the latter proves maddeningly hard to pin down. (E.g. is Ochocinco really physically "washed up"? Surely this year's gimpy version of Branch is far more athletically compromised, yet he had 51 catches for 702 yards and 5 touchdowns.)

 

[captain stone]

Ah, cap'n we can always count on you! I start a thread with the premise that everybody keeps screaming and getting red in the face about Ocho, but if you step back and look at the full scope of veteran acquisitions it's unusual and interesting...

And you respond with "bbbbut...Ocho! OCHO!!! :enranged:"



Here's a useful exercise: list all the teams that made better, more impactful and more cost-effective total veteran acquisitions than the Patriots this offseason.

I believe I responded to the entire list, not just the part that mentioned the OchoStinko mistake.

On balance, I would also call Bill's FA strategy a success, esp. when considering the number of holes in the roster - esp. on defense - that he had to fill.

 

[mgteich]

In terms of total production, this was one of the very best free agent groups ever. Consider Haynsworth as the backup quality player that he was, and he too had reasonable success, holding down Deaderick's roster spot until he was healthy. We overpaid for some (e.g. Ellis) and underpaid for others; but, we got reasonable production out of all but one.

IMHO, you correctly evaluate last year's free agency period. However, in hindsight, I would also add the acquisition of Sterling Moore to the list of free agent pickups.

I also would add Ihedigbo to the list.

Having just seen a couple of unrelated threads that descended into bashing the Ochocinco & Haynesworth signings, I took a moment and made a list of the significant veterans signed in this offseason who played in at least one game. Here's what I came up with:

Mark Anderson
Andre Carter
Shaun Ellis
Albert Haynesworth
Matt Light
Logan Mankins
Chad Ochocinco
Gerard Warren
Brian Waters

That's 9 players including 4 key starters and 1 semi-starter for a Superbowl team, and only 1 (Mankins) was a long-term, big-money commitment.

For perspective, I tried to compile a comparable list for 2010. Can this really be all?

Alge Crumpler
Gerard Warren
Vince Wilfork

It sure looks like the combo of the nonexistent offseason, compressed FA period and shortened camp led to a strategic decision to throw a ton of mid-priced veterans into the mix and see who floated to the top. On balance, I'd call the strategy a clear success. How about you?

 

[mgteich]

I don't think that the percentage of hits and misses matter much. What matter is total production.

Hits:
Waters
Carter (boy do I miss him)
Anderson
Warren (barely; but for the same $, who else was avail.?)

Misses:
Ellis (not that much worse than Warren, but for the $$$ he makes, def. a miss)
Fat Albert (a waste of time & a draft pick, but at least he didn't cost us as much as...)
Ocho-feckin-Stinko ($5.5M AND 2 draft picks?!? for 1 goddamned catch per game?)

I don't consider Light & Mankins in this group because they were long-time vets of this organization
who re-signed.

What makes the Ellis & Stinko signings even worse than the Haynesworthless signing is the possibility
of finding players at those 2 positions who could've provided better production at much less cost.

To be fair, adding cast-offs Polite, McDonald, Thomas, Aiken, Diggy, Nate Jones, Molden & esp. Moore
should also be taken into consideration, with only Kid 'n Play, Koutouvides & Mal Williams in the group
who should thank Bill every day for being given an NFL paycheck.

 

[ay-yo]

I think this will be a key topic for the offseason. We've seen pretty clearly that "NFL receiver" and "PATRIOTS receiver" are not nearly the same thing, and the latter proves maddeningly hard to pin down. (E.g. is Ochocinco really physically "washed up"? Surely this year's gimpy version of Branch is far more athletically compromised, yet he had 51 catches for 702 yards and 5 touchdowns.)

I know Lloyd coming here has been :deadhorse: on this board but with quotes like this:

"I can't even lie about that. I'm tied to McDaniels. He uses me differently than other offensive coordinators used me in my entire career. He uses me as an every-play receiver. The short game, mid-range game, gimmick passes, deep balls. I do everything in this offense as opposed to other coordinators who would just run me off as the deep guy; run me off into double coverage and then say I'm not open. So I really like how Josh uses me within the offense. I'm extremely comfortable in the offense."

Lloyd then continued:

"Probably No. 1 (as a factor), because I want to be successful, and I want to earn whatever money I'm making. I want to be used in ways where I feel comfortable and I can be successful. And Josh knows how to do that."

You have to feel like it's a no brainer move. Even with Lloyd on board I wouldn't mind drafting a guy since Lloyd and Welker will both be in their 30's.

Depth Chart: Welker / Lloyd / Branch / Edelman / Pick / Slater

 

[RayClay]

Hits:
Waters
Carter (boy do I miss him)
Anderson
Warren (barely; but for the same $, who else was avail.?)

Misses:
Ellis (not that much worse than Warren, but for the $$$ he makes, def. a miss)
Fat Albert (a waste of time & a draft pick, but at least he didn't cost us as much as...)
Ocho-feckin-Stinko ($5.5M AND 2 draft picks?!? for 1 goddamned catch per game?)

I don't consider Light & Mankins in this group because they were long-time vets of this organization
who re-signed.

What makes the Ellis & Stinko signings even worse than the Haynesworthless signing is the possibility
of finding players at those 2 positions who could've provided better production at much less cost.

To be fair, adding cast-offs Polite, McDonald, Thomas, Aiken, Diggy, Nate Jones, Molden & esp. Moore
should also be taken into consideration, with only Kid 'n Play, Koutouvides & Mal Williams in the group
who should thank Bill every day for being given an NFL paycheck.

Since i don't have to pay them, I'm pretty happy to have Ellis available and still looking (in the Denver game) like he could help if needed. Let's face it, Carter,then Anderson, Deaderck and Love came up big and I think Warren desves more credit as of late. You can only play 11 and i don't mind having an Ellis or a Brace in reserve. Sure beats Wilfork moving to every position in the line because we had no one else.