Thinking outside the Box

[Bella*chick]

The greatest thing about Bill Belichick is that he continues to be a step or two ahead of the rest of the NFL. Like a Steve Jobs, he sees opportunities before everyone else considers them.

Ha, I as going to mention Steve Jobs. Good call.

 

[RobertWeathers]

And BB as an innovator of the 2 TE offense? His only innovation is to have 2 incredibly gifted versatile athletes to play the position and to be willing to use their versatility fully. Joe Gibbs deserves credit for "popularizing" the 2 TE offense, or 1 TE/1 H-back offense, which, interestingly enough, was a response to BB's Giants defense with Lawrence Taylor. BB is just combining that idea with the spread offense because he's fortunate enough to have 2 guys that have skill sets that fit into both. Other teams can only follow if they find similarly gifted athletes.

Joe Gibbs does not deserve the credit for the 2TE offense. While I will stop short in calling BB an innovator, the 2TE offense/H-back offense is a Ray Perkins/Chuck Fairbanks lovechild.

For the Giants, you had Bavaro/Zeke Mowatt/Tony Galbreath setup and later Bavaro/Howard Cross/George Adams. As you point out, BB has the talent here unlike with besides Bavaro with the G-Men.

Pats in 1996 had a similar setup with Coats and Byars as the H-Back.

 

[Stilla]

His name is Ernie Adams.

ESPN.com - E-ticket: Who is this guy?

Adams, inspiring a lifelong love affair. Football is only two things. Blocking and tackling. Even then, Adams showed hints of what was to come. His favorite play, installed at his request, was a goal-line, tackle-eligible play. Adams was the decoy. The play almost always worked. He didn't mind not getting the credit. "It was part of winning," Dalrymple says. "He liked to win."

If Adams had a hand in picking Nate Solder, then you know Solder will be that tackle-eligible player. I have already claimed that Nate would catch his 1st pass this sunday, but now after reading the article, I know its coming this post season.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

FINALLY!!!!!! Somebody who gets it. THANK YOU.

This isn't about the exact year BB turned to the 3-4, or the exact date the passing game exploded. This thread was to point out exactly what ausie said. Time and time again BB is a step or two ahead of the rest of the league. I just tried to point out 3 examples

Great thread as always..... I think you are 100% correct. I also find it VERY interesting that BB, the defensive guru (as he is known), is responsible for 2 of the most "innovative" OFFENSIVE trends in the last few years (spread and 2-TE offense).

Maybe instead of BB, the defensive guru, we should just call him BB, the master guru of all thing football.

I always look forward to your posts, so as my first post on this forum, I thought I would reply to my favorite poster.

1. I'm thinking Bill is working toward a hybrid defense. One that can morph from 4-3 to 3-4 and back. Carter is a good example of a player who can play both, though his strength is in the 4-3.

I think that you are also on to something. One thing that I've noticed about this defense, certainly down the stretch...... Is that they come out in a very basic vanilla and bland coverages........ They play in that (and generally get blown up for the 1st quarter), and then slowly begin to morph the defense into a unit that is built to shut down the offensive game plan in front of them.

Look at most of our games. Offenses come out gun blazing and we look shell shocked for the first part of the game. By halftime though, our defense settles in and we rarely allow late game points (with only Indy and NYG games as exceptions. I think that in the last 5 games, we've only allowed and average of 4.8 points in the last half of games (compared to 21 for the whole game).

It feels like we come out in a generic look, wait to see what the offense shows, and then we morph into a defense to stop it.

Of course, I think our offense does that exact same thing. It's not uncommon this year to come out, stall on a few drives and then ramp it up once we get a feel for the defense.

Whether or not that is be design or whatever, it certainly is something that hasn't been seen here defensively in several years.

 

[Trocadile]

Joe Gibbs does not deserve the credit for the 2TE offense. While I will stop short in calling BB an innovator, the 2TE offense/H-back offense is a Ray Perkins/Chuck Fairbanks lovechild.

For the Giants, you had Bavaro/Zeke Mowatt/Tony Galbreath setup and later Bavaro/Howard Cross/George Adams. As you point out, BB has the talent here unlike with besides Bavaro with the G-Men.

Pats in 1996 had a similar setup with Coats and Byars as the H-Back.

It is interesting (and fun) to realize that the roots of the current Patriots offense and defense go back to those 70's teams with the Hank Bullough defense and the Ray Perkins/Ron Erhardt offense. However I don't recall Perkins/Erhardt using an H-back the way Gibbs did, and I think of the Redskins H-back as the precursor of the hybrid role that Hernandez now takes to the highest level.

Perkins did use Byars that way in '96, but mostly at the end of the year, after Sam Gash was injured.

 

[RobertWeathers]

It is interesting (and fun) to realize that the roots of the current Patriots offense and defense go back to those 70's teams with the Hank Bullough defense and the Ray Perkins/Ron Erhardt offense. However I don't recall Perkins/Erhardt using an H-back the way Gibbs did,
and I think of the Redskins H-back as the precursor of the hybrid role that Hernandez now takes to the highest level.

I could be wrong but the 'Skins had Didier and Warren were the 'Skins 2TE and for and H-back not sure who they had. However what they did with AH on Sat reminded me of how Gibbs used Kelvin Bryant.

Perkins did use Byars that way in '96, but mostly at the end of the year, after Sam Gash was injured.

Correct. They went two TE single back offense after Sam tore his knee vs the Jets (IIRC)

 

[Trocadile]

I could be wrong but the 'Skins had Didier and Warren were the 'Skins 2TE and for and H-back not sure who they had. However what they did with AH on Sat reminded me of how Gibbs used Kelvin Bryant.

I think Didier was the H-back, Warren the conventional TE.

 

[Canuck]

NE has had 2 great TEs for 2 seasons, and yet BB still drafted Lee Smith, brought in Dan Gronkowski, and a few other TEs who didn't pan out for one reason or another.

These other TEs weren't brought to NE to add depth behind Rob and Aaron, they were brought in to block. None of them are on the team, because BB settled with Nate Solder as his 3rd TE.

BB wants to bring together 3 TEs, Nate had some action this year as a TE, but injury to the o-line forced BB to play Nate at tackle.

It is my gut feeling that BB likes what Nate was able to accomplish this year as a TE, and if BB is able, he will bring in another tackle so Nate can play TE, and add depth to the 0-line. OR, BB will try to find that 3rd TE some other way, and the guy won't play back up to add depth, he will start in a 3 TE formation.

NE ran enough 3 TE package this year to warrant this theory.

BB accepted a 2 TE system, only because injury forced his hand to free up roster space for other positions. His ideal system for the Brady bunch was a 3 TE set, and in this offseason we will see BB go after it.

Exactly what I was thinking. I think he was hoping that Smith or Yeatman could be developed into the 3rd TE. They were released on waivers and both were claimed. I think BB was hoping to sneak one of them back onto the practice squad. Solder will do for now but I think Bill wants a legit 3rd blocking TE similar to when Alge Crumpler was here, hopefully one that can also catch a few passes.

 

[Gwedd]

His name is Ernie Adams.

ESPN.com - E-ticket: Who is this guy?

I remember that article. It's a wonderful and and excellent look behind the scenes. In a way, he reminds me of Robert Duvall's character in "The Godfather". Ernie is, in a sense, Belichick's Consigliere. He can speak openly and honestly anytime, and his advice is valued because he's not in the chain of command.

 

[supafly]

Joe Gibbs does not deserve the credit for the 2TE offense. While I will stop short in calling BB an innovator, the 2TE offense/H-back offense is a Ray Perkins/Chuck Fairbanks lovechild.

For the Giants, you had Bavaro/Zeke Mowatt/Tony Galbreath setup and later Bavaro/Howard Cross/George Adams. As you point out, BB has the talent here unlike with besides Bavaro with the G-Men.

Pats in 1996 had a similar setup with Coats and Byars as the H-Back.

It is interesting (and fun) to realize that the roots of the current Patriots offense and defense go back to those 70's teams with the Hank Bullough defense and the Ray Perkins/Ron Erhardt offense. However I don't recall Perkins/Erhardt using an H-back the way Gibbs did, and I think of the Redskins H-back as the precursor of the hybrid role that Hernandez now takes to the highest level.

Perkins did use Byars that way in '96, but mostly at the end of the year, after Sam Gash was injured.

I could be wrong but the 'Skins had Didier and Warren were the 'Skins 2TE and for and H-back not sure who they had. However what they did with AH on Sat reminded me of how Gibbs used Kelvin Bryant.



Correct. They went two TE single back offense after Sam tore his knee vs the Jets (IIRC)

I think Didier was the H-back, Warren the conventional TE.

Bill Belichick just admitted today that "not too many teams used the 2TE offense..at all, until we did it with the Lions in the early-to-mid 70's."

It was utilized by Belichick when he was with DET by Charley Sanders and David Hill, who combined for more than 1/2 of the Lions total touchdowns in the 1976 season.

Belichick said that Sanders still comes up to him and "thanks him" every time they see each other.

It appears to me that the inception of the 2TE offense, or at least the popularization and modernization of it, occured while he coached with the 1976 Detriot Lions, which was wayyyy before the Giants' teams of the '80's.

 

[RayClay]

3. AND today, we are in on the ground floor of BB's NEXT revolutionary trend. "The 2 TE offense".

NOW it makes sense all those years BB spent drafting TEs. I wouldn't be surprised if BB didn't have this kind of offense in mind for years. All it took was getting the right personnel to implement it.

Oh, there's no doubt BB envisioned it, in fact I'm pretty sure he said it. Two first rounders, some lower picks and a ton of FAs run through here and he still didn't have what he was looking for. He still doesn't have two great blocking/receiving TEs, but Hernandez offers so much more and Gronk is the complete package, it's really incredible. I'm sure Graham and Watson were supposed to be it, but stone hands and gentler than physical (respectively) made each still only a partial solution. Gronk is the prototype. Funny that Hernandez is more twhat Garret Mills was drafted for and much better. With his RB skills, it looks like BB has a new toy.

 

[ausbacker]

Oh, there's no doubt BB envisioned it, in fact I'm pretty sure he said it. Two first rounders, some lower picks and a ton of FAs run through here and he still didn't have what he was looking for. He still doesn't have two great blocking/receiving TEs, but Hernandez offers so much more and Gronk is the complete package, it's really incredible. I'm sure Graham and Watson were supposed to be it, but stone hands and gentler than physical (respectively) made each still only a partial solution. Gronk is the prototype. Funny that Hernandez is more twhat Garret Mills was drafted for and much better. With his RB skills, it looks like BB has a new toy.

Stonehands and Gentle would make a good name for a Christan gospel band.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think Didier was the H-back, Warren the conventional TE.

You're probably right.. Memory must be fading

 

[RobertWeathers]

Bill Belichick just admitted today that "not too many teams used the 2TE offense..at all, until we did it with the Lions in the early-to-mid 70's."

It was utilized by Belichick when he was with DET by Charley Sanders and David Hill, who combined for more than 1/2 of the Lions total touchdowns in the 1976 season.

Belichick said that Sanders still comes up to him and "thanks him" every time they see each other.

It appears to me that the inception of the 2TE offense, or at least the popularization and modernization of it, occured while he coached with the 1976 Detriot Lions, which was wayyyy before the Giants' teams of the '80's.

Not going to doubt BB here but the Pats of 70s did run something similar w/ Francis/Al Chandler or Don Hasselbeck however I don't think they really had an H-Back on those teams.

 

[Trocadile]

Bill Belichick just admitted today that "not too many teams used the 2TE offense..at all, until we did it with the Lions in the early-to-mid 70's."

It was utilized by Belichick when he was with DET by Charley Sanders and David Hill, who combined for more than 1/2 of the Lions total touchdowns in the 1976 season.

Belichick said that Sanders still comes up to him and "thanks him" every time they see each other.

It appears to me that the inception of the 2TE offense, or at least the popularization and modernization of it, occured while he coached with the 1976 Detriot Lions, which was wayyyy before the Giants' teams of the '80's.

There were certainly plenty of 2-TE sets before the 80s and Detroit may have been one of the first to rely heavily on it, but I was talking more about the evolution of the H-back role.