Backup QBs - Hoyer VS Mallet

[nukin]

Good morning everyone! Forgive me if this has been posted recently, as I did not find it on the first few pages...

In our playoff bye week, I thought it would be fun to ask: What do you think of our backup QBs?

Ryan Mallett: 23 years old, 6'7, 250 with a mega rocket for an arm.
Brian Hoyer: 26 years old, 6'2 215 and has proven dependable so far and seems to be a better decision maker then Mallett.

Mallett reminds me a lot of TMFB for many reasons (including his draft position, throwing style and pocket presence)

Check out Mallett's highlights against the jags:
Ryan Mallett 8-11-11 Pats vs Jags Preseason - YouTube
... and analysis on his draft position...
NFL Videos: Perfect fit for Mallett?
Edit: Quick side note, Jacksonville, Washington and San Francisco could have both drafted Mallett (among many other teams) and whether or not he plays better then their current QBs remains to be seen.


From this highlight video, you can see he can locate the open receiver and has great throws, especially in the middle.... 12-19 for 164 and 1 touchdown in the game, and although he also had an interception, if that was gronk or welker catching the ball then he would of been 13-19

I believe Hoyer is a smarter guy, but I believe Mallett is the potential future of our franchise. Anyone have any cool stats on either of the two? Any thoughts on the future of our QBs 5-10 years down the road?

 

[patchick]

Given a choice between a guy we've seen almost nothing of and a guy we've seen absolutely nothing of, I'll take...umm....

Seriously, the two of them have combine for 27 career passes, most of those by Hoyer back in his rookie year. I don't feel like I have much basis for evaluation. But reading tea leaves, BB isn't generally one to carry 3 QBs, especially with a returning #2 already in place. That tells me that the coaches are encouraged by what they've seen of Mallett, and unlike Hoyer he has rare, elite physical tools.

So if I were betting on one of them to become a franchise QB, my money would be on Mallett. Hoyer strikes me as a guy who has the poise, judgment and fundamentals for a pretty long career, but as a backup and spot starter.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

If I had to choose based on one being more like Brady than the other, my money would be on Hoyer - the overachiever. Mallet doesn't strike me as a fit here on many levels. As to comparing what they have done this year, all I know is Hoyer has 3 times as many black practice player of the week jersey's on the season even while functioning as the #2. Mallet (who earned his replicating the Sanchize...yeesh) is on the roster simply because given his pre draft buzz and third round selection he'd have never made it through waivers. And Hoyer is scheduled to be a RFA this season, so Bill finally had to have a backup backup plan. I watch the demeanor of the two on the sidelines and while Mallet is a perennial inactive I would think he could manage more than schmoozing with the other youngsters. Sometimes Bill indulges based on emotional connections, like Tebow or Ocho...and other times he seems to get dazzled by measurables as many coaches and scouts tend to...but those decisions don't tend to pan out as well as his concensus based ones on average.

As for the future, baring catestrophic injury (and given his track record even that doesn't necessarily stop him) neither will be around when Tom jogs off into the tunnel for the last time. That guy is probably being recruited by some college now or perhaps stuck behind some overhyped bluechipper and waiting and working towards his chance. All these interim guys are just place holders and potential trade fodder but most importantly place holders. We don't know yet if Mallet is even that. This offseason should tell the tale. If he can't overtake Hoyer on the depth chart and Bill is willing to keep Hoyer around on a RFA tender of $1.8M or more...then I don't know how you can even assume Mallet can ever be even a place holder here. Doesn't mean he couldn't have some success in another scheme, but to stay around more than a year or two here you have to have as much floor as potential ceiling.

 

[patchick]

If I had to choose based on one being more like Brady than the other, my money would be on Hoyer - the overachiever.

More "like Brady"? I'd agree, and that's part of what makes him a valuable backup here. But more likely to ultimately become a franchise QB somewhere? Again, I'd bet Mallett.

Mallett wasn't a "measurables" prospect so much as a "wow look at that throw!" prospect. He made plays in college that few NFL QBs can manage -- the combination of vision, accuracy and pure raw arm strength. And by all accounts his football knowledge and intensity are strengths.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

More "like Brady"? I'd agree, and that's part of what makes him a valuable backup here. But more likely to ultimately become a franchise QB somewhere? Again, I'd bet Mallett.

Mallett wasn't a "measurables" prospect so much as a "wow look at that throw!" prospect. He made plays in college that few NFL QBs can manage -- the combination of vision, accuracy and pure raw arm strength. And by all accounts his football knowledge and intensity are strengths.

Reminds me more of someone who was tall and had a strong arm. And while that still may succeed somewhere it won't cut it here. Unless they can flip him for a #2 or better in an upcoming draft, I'd have been happier had someone else taken a flyer on "wow" and left McElroy sitting there for us to scoop up in our developmental QB sweet spot. Of course, Greg may yet become available...

 

[satz]

You forgot to add that during the offseason the work outs and passing camps was run by hoyer past year.

satz

 

[patsfan13]

Mallett didn't have the full off season to be coached. So presently Hoyer is the #2 with his grasp of the O. Mallett clearly has elite physical tools, it was observed that Mallett spent 5 hrs pre draft reviewing film with BB. If he is a film rat and spends time with Brady and Hoyer in the film room he could be special.

It will be fun to see Mallett in action next year in preseason.

 

[IllegalContact]

Reminds me more of someone who was tall and had a strong arm. And while that still may succeed somewhere it won't cut it here. Unless they can flip him for a #2 or better in an upcoming draft, I'd have been happier had someone else taken a flyer on "wow" and left McElroy sitting there for us to scoop up in our developmental QB sweet spot. Of course, Greg may yet become available...

LOL.....sounds like someone doesn't like Mallett just for the sake of not liking him

 

[IllegalContact]

Mallett versus Hoyer or whatever garbage others are throwing is laughable

it's like taking rick mirer over drew bledsoe

 

[sly24]

Sometimes Bill indulges based on emotional connections, like Tebow or Ocho...and other times he seems to get dazzled by measurables as many coaches and scouts tend to...but those decisions don't tend to pan out as well as his concensus based ones on average.

Thank god BB went with his gut feeling in 2000 and kept Brady as 4TH! QB which is basically a wasted roster spot. I agree though most of the time the decisions made on feelings don't turn out as planned but you gotta try once in a while!

I would take Mallett over Hoyer, he has higher ceiling IMO.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You forgot to add that during the offseason the work outs and passing camps was run by hoyer past year.

satz

And that is the kind of thing that really resonates with Bill, whether he thinks the workouts were productive or not. Leadership. The ability to read defenses. The poise and capacity to make good decisions under pressure in an instant and avoid the impulse to make a bad play in persuit of making a play. Accuracy and the ability to make all the throws consistently as opposed to the ability to wow you one minute and frustrate you to distraction the next. The humility and adaptability and determination to learn from your mistakes and be accountable for them and not keep reverting to form and repeating them. And yet the healthy ego and drive to not only believe you can become the best but remain the best (even if it's only the best you can be). Bankable skills that are usually underscored by intangibles. Trumps raw talent every time especially if you have a coaching staff that can make the most of things they can bank on.

It's not a talent vs. lack of talent equation, either. They all have talent at this level or they wouldn't make a roster. It's just that measurable athleticism and raw talent like arm strength are consistently over rated by coaches and scouts because they are easiest to quantify. Intangibles are harder to quantify and yet in the end they are what more often than not carry the day. Because guys who have them so often find a way to improve on or refine their seemingly more limited talent while those who were blessed with an abundance of it tend to coast and become overly reliant on it bailing them out.

I firmly believe that for every boom or bust early round QB that passes through the NFL nowadays there are twice as many who never get a shot to truly compete because of scouting bias. We've been fortunate here because Brady has taught this staff to look beyond scouting grades and draft media hype for that diamond in the rough effort guy, and Bill is the kind of HC who doesn't care where you came from or how you got here if you can do the job he needs you to do at this level because that means you're a football player.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

LOL.....sounds like someone doesn't like Mallett just for the sake of not liking him

Not at all, I just don't see a fit. And as for Mirer over Bledsoe...that's really a nonsensical analogy because Bledsoe couldn't make it here...and over time anywhere. Although depending on how you define making it (and empty yardage and stats isn't my definition - which also probably explains my aversion to fantasy football...).

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Mallett didn't have the full off season to be coached. So presently Hoyer is the #2 with his grasp of the O. Mallett clearly has elite physical tools, it was observed that Mallett spent 5 hrs pre draft reviewing film with BB. If he is a film rat and spends time with Brady and Hoyer in the film room he could be special.

It will be fun to see Mallett in action next year in preseason.

Chad Jackson supposedly aced those tests. And Tebow...Bill could have spent a lifetime talking football with that kid...not to mention Randy was the smartest player Bill or Tom ever worked with, only on some level it didn't translate to on field success - just a lot of stats and less of those over time. And Bill is in it for the long haul. Which is why he has come to admire and value Brady above all others. He had a high floor and apparently no ceiling.

 

[Deus Irae]

Mallet was mostly lousy in preseason, and that's all we've really got to go by right now, because we don't have a history of other seasons the way we did with Cassel. Unless Mallet's improved by some factor of 10, I'll take Hoyer.

 

[patsfan13]

Chad Jackson supposedly aced those tests.

What tests? BB spent 5 hours going over film and seeing how C Jackson read defenses?

Really?

And Tebow...Bill could have spent a lifetime talking football with that kid

Was there a point to this comment, it is safe to say Tebow doesn't have an elite NFL arm, Mallett does. If not for his character questions he would have been the 2nd QB drafted.

...not to mention Randy was the smartest player Bill or Tom ever worked with, only on some level it didn't translate to on field success - just a lot of stats and less of those over time.

Funny stuff, the regular season record for TD's and an undefeated season is just some stats, yeah OK......when you're in a hole it is better to stop digging.

And Bill is in it for the long haul. Which is why he has come to admire and value Brady above all others. He had a high floor and apparently no ceiling.

What does Mallet and his potential have to do with Brady??????????

No one is suggesting that Mallet be the starter next year. Just that he COULD be special if he has the right work ethic.

Why do you hate Malett?

 

[Dessalines]

At this point Hoyer over Mallet. Hoyer has been a pro for years and he's ready for the next step. I hope we keep him. Right now there are many YETS fans who would drive Mark Sanchez out of town if they could get Hoyer. I've read their posts about it, they are very aware of him but you seem to be less sanguine. They never mention Mallet, who in the NFL is still an unknown quantity. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Dessalines]

And that is the kind of thing that really resonates with Bill, whether he thinks the workouts were productive or not. Leadership. The ability to read defenses. The poise and capacity to make good decisions under pressure in an instant and avoid the impulse to make a bad play in persuit of making a play. Accuracy and the ability to make all the throws consistently as opposed to the ability to wow you one minute and frustrate you to distraction the next. The humility and adaptability and determination to learn from your mistakes and be accountable for them and not keep reverting to form and repeating them. And yet the healthy ego and drive to not only believe you can become the best but remain the best (even if it's only the best you can be). Bankable skills that are usually underscored by intangibles. Trumps raw talent every time especially if you have a coaching staff that can make the most of things they can bank on.

It's not a talent vs. lack of talent equation, either. They all have talent at this level or they wouldn't make a roster. It's just that measurable athleticism and raw talent like arm strength are consistently over rated by coaches and scouts because they are easiest to quantify. Intangibles are harder to quantify and yet in the end they are what more often than not carry the day. Because guys who have them so often find a way to improve on or refine their seemingly more limited talent while those who were blessed with an abundance of it tend to coast and become overly reliant on it bailing them out.

I firmly believe that for every boom or bust early round QB that passes through the NFL nowadays there are twice as many who never get a shot to truly compete because of scouting bias. We've been fortunate here because Brady has taught this staff to look beyond scouting grades and draft media hype for that diamond in the rough effort guy, and Bill is the kind of HC who doesn't care where you came from or how you got here if you can do the job he needs you to do at this level because that means you're a football player.

Great post man.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Bill Belichick continues to add palywers and increase the depth of his team. Brady is the GOAT. Hoyer reminds me of the heady Brian Sipe type QBs, who wins with his head, and throws them where they ain't.

Mallett is a major puzzle. He has everything that a QB needs, IMHO. NFL QBs have to be able to throw, and complete pasees; first, last and always. Only then, if he can be elusive, that is another nice but basically unecessary attribute for a QB.

I frankly don't know from where some of the criticism of Mallett comes. Of what exactly is he supposedly guilty? He is the off-spring of a Coach and school teacher mother, never got arrested for anything, was heavily recruited by Loyd Carr, a disciplinarian,and played for him as a freshman. When Carr retired, he then went to the SEC under yet another disciplinarian, Bobby Petrino. He has a football mind, and passed a multi-hour interview with yet another coach, the GOAT NFL Coach, Bill Belichick, who puts up with no nonsense.

He played big time football and started a few games for Lloyd Carr at Michigan, and transferred when Coach Rodriquez took over and installed the single wing. Mallett knew he couldn't prosper in such a environment, and may have bee pushed out by Rodriquez too, to clear the way.

So he didn't abandon Michigan and Carr; Michigan and Rodriquez abandoned him. If he were a "bad boy", Carr would have benched him, as Carr was widely known to do with lots of players. He went to Arkansas under a tough disciplinarian, Bobby Petrino, and ran a pro set. It is where he set SEC records too.

Rumors that he was a poor leader and was not elected captain turned out erroneous by both his teamates and Petrino. I see no indication that he has an off-putting personality, nor a giagantic ego full of me, me, and only me.

If Carr, Petrino and Belichick interviewed and selected him, who am I to diagnose otherwise?

TB was a Lloyd Carr project and was selected in the 6th round. Mallett has more arm power and size, and was also selected by Lloyd Carr. He was more highly rated than TB before and in the draft, but like Tom Brady slipped, and was taken in the 3rd round. It gives them both motivation to succeed.

 

[BlueThunder]

Hoyer has 4 years or so in the Pats offense with Brady as his mentor. That's got to translate to some good performances in the future. Short term, Hoyer is the man. Does BB sign him to a short term deal or possibly franchise him?
Not sure a trade is possible not knowing how Mallett will be developing next year. Maybe BB and the coaches have seen enough of Ryan to trust him as the future backup and are willing to trade Hoyer.... I have no idea.

Mallett hasn't had a full camp and NOBODY here knows what his ceiling is. He HAS the arm, but how much time does he spend studying film? How fast is he picking up the offense ? How fast is he picking up defensive reads?.....Only BB and the coaches know.

All I know is it will be exciting to watch pre season games next season !!

 

[Patspsycho]

If I had to choose based on one being more like Brady than the other, my money would be on Hoyer - the overachiever. Mallet doesn't strike me as a fit here on many levels. As to comparing what they have done this year, all I know is Hoyer has 3 times as many black practice player of the week jersey's on the season even while functioning as the #2. Mallet (who earned his replicating the Sanchize...yeesh) is on the roster simply because given his pre draft buzz and third round selection he'd have never made it through waivers. And Hoyer is scheduled to be a RFA this season, so Bill finally had to have a backup backup plan. I watch the demeanor of the two on the sidelines and while Mallet is a perennial inactive I would think he could manage more than schmoozing with the other youngsters. Sometimes Bill indulges based on emotional connections, like Tebow or Ocho...and other times he seems to get dazzled by measurables as many coaches and scouts tend to...but those decisions don't tend to pan out as well as his concensus based ones on average.

As for the future, baring catestrophic injury (and given his track record even that doesn't necessarily stop him) neither will be around when Tom jogs off into the tunnel for the last time. That guy is probably being recruited by some college now or perhaps stuck behind some overhyped bluechipper and waiting and working towards his chance. All these interim guys are just place holders and potential trade fodder but most importantly place holders. We don't know yet if Mallet is even that. This offseason should tell the tale. If he can't overtake Hoyer on the depth chart and Bill is willing to keep Hoyer around on a RFA tender of $1.8M or more...then I don't know how you can even assume Mallet can ever be even a place holder here. Doesn't mean he couldn't have some success in another scheme, but to stay around more than a year or two here you have to have as much floor as potential ceiling.

You are way off track here. Hoyer is a competent QB and will likely start elsewhere next year, but Mallet is the one with the elite physical attributes that can't be taught. As your username suggests (in a macabre way) you are overtly attached to Brady, but the harsh fact is that he is in the twilight of his career and his physical skills have already eroded, starting with the declining accuracy on his long throws. I would honestly give Brady 2-3 more years, tops.

Mallet comes from Arkansas, from a pro-style offense that does a lot of 11, 12, and 21 personnel and that is a great fit for the modified Erhardt-Perkins offense that's run in the Patriots system. If not for his personal issues (one public intoxication charge as far as I know) he would have gone in the first round, and so is an absolute steal for us. I think that when all is said and done, he will end up being the best steal in the draft, from the last few years, even over Gronk.

The only question I have is if he has Brady's fire, fierce determination and focus, which is second to nothing. I don't question his team spirit (after all, did you see him jump up and down when Gronk broke the record?).