Good thoughts my mom had.

[nukin]

Now, let me start off by saying my mom is a christian with very strong beliefs, however she is also Gay. Her girlfriend is of the Wicca faith.

I asked her "Mom, how can you be a christian and a lesbian."

She replied:
"Well, I have searched the bible, I have read it four times, and I have come to an understanding. In the old testament, it condem's Gay's, compairing them to murderers. However, during his life, Jesus never once said anything about gay people. He never once condemed them."

She went on and on about what Jesus has said, and her takes on it. She got into things that I have never considered before.

Anyways, does anyone have any biblical evidence in the New Testament that condems gays?

 

[3 to be 4]

Now, let me start off by saying my mom is a christian with very strong beliefs, however she is also Gay. Her girlfriend is of the Wicca faith.

I asked her "Mom, how can you be a christian and a lesbian."

She replied:
"Well, I have searched the bible, I have read it four times, and I have come to an understanding. In the old testament, it condem's Gay's, compairing them to murderers. However, during his life, Jesus never once said anything about gay people. He never once condemed them."

She went on and on about what Jesus has said, and her takes on it. She got into things that I have never considered before.

Anyways, does anyone have any biblical evidence in the New Testament that condems gays?

First off, does that mean the Old Testament is totally discarded? That being asked, I would offer that I believe many Christians put much too much emphasis on the Gay issue. I think it has a lot to do with peoples sexual hangups that this is so prominant, and its also been fueled by right wing political concerns.

But the Bible teaches that any fornication is a sin. Heterosexual sex outside of marraige is sin. And so is arrogance. And pride. And lying. And envy. And Greed. They are all equal. No sin is worse than another. You sin in one area you are condemned. By the Law. And Jesus said we should keep the Law.

However, the good news is that Jesus death on the Cross paid the debt of all our sin. One time. Past, Present, future. Washed away clean. By accepting that gift He gave to us, repenting of our sin, asking His forgivenes, and believing on Him, we are free from condemnation. We are a new creation. We are not to sin, but now, if we do, we can go to God as a child goes to a loving parent and ask for fogiveness and it is given. This does not mean Believers can go ahead and sin freely. Hardly. We will face God in Heaven and there will be needless conflict and pain in our hearts here. But the condemnation is over.

Being Homosexual in itself is not a sin. The Homosexual act is a sin. Just as Hetorosexual sex outside of marriage. And the others I mentioned. But by believing in ************ we are forgiven.

When I first got saved I asked a Southern Baptist Pastor this question "If a Homosexual believes in ************ will He or She go to Heaven?" He was not happy with my question but he had to concede He or She would.

Just as if a Liar or an arrogant person believed in ************, they would go to Heaven as well.

 

[nukin]

First off, does that mean the Old Testament is totally discarded? That being asked, I would offer that I believe many Christians put much too much emphasis on the Gay issue. I think it has a lot to do with peoples sexual hangups that this is so prominant, and its also been fueled by right wing political concerns.

But the Bible teaches that any fornication is a sin. Heterosexual sex outside of marraige is sin. And so is arrogance. And pride. And lying. And envy. And Greed. They are all equal. No sin is worse than another. You sin in one area you are condemned. By the Law. And Jesus said we should keep the Law.

However, the good news is that Jesus death on the Cross paid the debt of all our sin. One time. Past, Present, future. Washed away clean. By accepting that gift He gave to us, repenting of our sin, asking His forgivenes, and believing on Him, we are free from condemnation. We are a new creation. We are not to sin, but now, if we do, we can go to God as a child goes to a loving parent and ask for fogiveness and it is given. This does not mean Believers can go ahead and sin freely. Hardly. We will face God in Heaven and there will be needless conflict and pain in our hearts here. But the condemnation is over.

Being Homosexual in itself is not a sin. The Homosexual act is a sin. Just as Hetorosexual sex outside of marriage. And the others I mentioned. But by believing in ************ we are forgiven.

When I first got saved I asked a Southern Baptist Pastor this question "If a Homosexual believes in ************ will He or She go to Heaven?" He was not happy with my question but he had to concede He or She would.

Just as if a Liar or an arrogant person believed in ************, they would go to Heaven as well.

No, not totally disreguarded - but my mom believes in Jesus's teachings moreso, I think.
Also, I think people should just let it go. If God created people as homosexuals, then he should'nt condem them. Contrary to popular belief, it is not 100% free will (Being gay). Some - a lot - of homosexuals are born homosexual.



BTW - Are you insinuating that Homosexuals are liars and arrogant people?
...
...
Kidding. I know what your saying.

 

[3 to be 4]

No, not totally disreguarded - but my mom believes in Jesus's teachings moreso, I think.
Also, I think people should just let it go. If God created people as homosexuals, then he should'nt condem them. Contrary to popular belief, it is not 100% free will (Being gay). Some - a lot - of homosexuals are born homosexual.



BTW - Are you insinuating that Homosexuals are liars and arrogant people?
...
...
Kidding. I know what your saying.

You TOTALLY missed my point. I wasnt "insinuating" anything. I was saying we are all guilty of lying and of arrogance therefore we are all sinners. No sin is greater than another so a Christian should not be judgemental of a homosexual if he himself has lied or has been arrogant.

However, that doesnt mean the act of homosexuality is not a sin. The homosexual is just as responsible for his or her sins as anyone else. I may even concede (rare for a Christian) that a homosexual is born that way.
But I was born a sinner. And I am responsible to deal with that sin.

The good news is that through ************ all the sin is forgiven. No matter your mothers sistuation, whether homosexual or not, if she has given her life to Christ, she is forgiven of her sin.

It is my opinion, and believe me, I get into it with Christians all the time about this, a person like your mother is going to Heaven. She has met the requirement. She believes in ************ as Son of God.

And just because there may be false teachings within Christianity ( not to mention sinners), it doesnt change the word of God.

Im not concerned with what religion says, I base my beliefs on the Bible and on ************. Per Justification by Faith, Fleabassist1, I agree with your mother.

NOT because the Old Testament isnt valid, but because Jesus blood has paid for her sins, and by that im not focusing on her sexual orientation, but on ALL sin that she and all people have.

 

[3 to be 4]

oops. i missed the part when you said you were kidding. Oh well, I wanted to get that point across anyway, in case somebody else thought thats what i meant.

 

[nukin]

You TOTALLY missed my point. I wasnt "insinuating" anything. I was saying we are all guilty of lying and of arrogance therefore we are all sinners. No sin is greater than another so a Christian should not be judgemental of a homosexual if he himself has lied or has been arrogant.

However, that doesnt mean the act of homosexuality is not a sin. The homosexual is just as responsible for his or her sins as anyone else. I may even concede (rare for a Christian) that a homosexual is born that way.
But I was born a sinner. And I am responsible to deal with that sin.

The good news is that through ************ all the sin is forgiven. No matter your mothers sistuation, whether homosexual or not, if she has given her life to Christ, she is forgiven of her sin.

It is my opinion, and believe me, I get into it with Christians all the time about this, a person like your mother is going to Heaven. She has met the requirement. She believes in ************ as Son of God.

And just because there may be false teachings within Christianity ( not to mention sinners), it doesnt change the word of God.

Im not concerned with what religion says, I base my beliefs on the Bible and on ************. Per Justification by Faith, Fleabassist1, I agree with your mother.

NOT because the Old Testament isnt valid, but because Jesus blood has paid for her sins, and by that im not focusing on her sexual orientation, but on ALL sin that she and all people have.

Yes, that is what she believes as well. She interprets it in a very odd way however, I don't feel like getting into it without her fully explaining it, (I don't want to say things that are not true) but she definitly has a few points on Christianity and how other religions relate to it. She was touching on something Jesus said about how everyone is saved ... except Jew's ... but don't quote me on that.

oops. i missed the part when you said you were kidding. Oh well, I wanted to get that point across anyway, in case somebody else thought thats what i meant.

Haha, yeah. I was reading your previous post and I was wondering if you missed that or not .

 

[3 to be 4]

Yes, that is what she believes as well. She interprets it in a very odd way however, I don't feel like getting into it without her fully explaining it, (I don't want to say things that are not true) but she definitly has a few points on Christianity and how other religions relate to it. She was touching on something Jesus said about how everyone is saved ... except Jew's ... but don't quote me on that

everyone is Saved who accepts Jesus, Jew or not.

When the robber on the cross next to Jesus said "Lord, do not forget me" and acknowledged his sin, Jesus told him that he would be in paradise with Him.

Jesus did not require he join a church, get baptised, say a specific prayer, give money, help this person, help that person.

By acknowledging his own sin and calling Jesus Lord, he had a place in Heaven. Man, through Religion, has made it more much more complicated than that, which only serves the purpose of Satan.

Acknowledging your sin and striving to turn in the direction of righeousness (Repentance) and by believing that Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins, and rose again, we have eternal life.

Religious affiliation, trying to "good enough" (which NONE of us will ever be), that wont get you there. Its belief in Jesus.

 

[thesmee1]

I'd like to think that God loves everyone, and that all these diverse people that live on this earth are here for a reason. How people interpret the Bible, is entirely up to them. And being gay isn't a choice. I remeber my nephew as he went from a little boy to a teen, and I'd say to my mother, 'ma, he's gay.' She'd poo-poo it, but on the day of her funeral, he came out to the family. I wish he had the courage enough to come out to her.

 

[Tunescribe]

I'd like to think that God loves everyone, and that all these diverse people that live on this earth are here for a reason. How people interpret the Bible, is entirely up to them. And being gay isn't a choice. I remeber my nephew as he went from a little boy to a teen, and I'd say to my mother, 'ma, he's gay.' She'd poo-poo it, but on the day of her funeral, he came out to the family. I wish he had the courage enough to come out to her.

Seems downright odd to think that God created homosexuals yet living a homosexual lifestyle is considered "sinful." Just one of the many nonsensical contradictions via fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible.

 

[nukin]

Seems downright odd to think that God created homosexuals yet living a homosexual lifestyle is considered "sinful." Just one of the many nonsensical contradictions via fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible.

That's my thoughts on it as well.

 

[3 to be 4]

I'd like to think that God loves everyone, and that all these diverse people that live on this earth are here for a reason. How people interpret the Bible, is entirely up to them. And being gay isn't a choice. I remeber my nephew as he went from a little boy to a teen, and I'd say to my mother, 'ma, he's gay.' She'd poo-poo it, but on the day of her funeral, he came out to the family. I wish he had the courage enough to come out to her.

God does indeed love everyone. That is why He sent His only begotten son to die for us to pay the price for our sins, so that we might live with Him for eternity.

Im no expert on why a person is Gay. And I do think there is too much focus on it.

 

[3 to be 4]

Seems downright odd to think that God created homosexuals yet living a homosexual lifestyle is considered "sinful." Just one of the many nonsensical contradictions via fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible.

He created heterosexuals too yet fornication is a sin. He created Liars, thieves, arrogant people. These are all sins as well.

Because you dont like the way God works doesnt make it all untrue. He didnt check with you. And He didnt check with me.

No sin is worse than another. One act of sin condemn us. Nobody is Righteous. The Homosexual is not a bigger sinner than anyone else because we all have sin, and we all fall short. I have been clear on this.

But through the Blood of Jesus we are all forgiven of our sin. When we confess our sin and accept Him as our Lord and Savior when are Saved.

 

[Tunescribe]

He created heterosexuals too yet fornication is a sin. He created Liars, thieves, arrogant people. These are all sins as well.

Because you dont like the way God works doesnt make it all untrue. He didnt check with you. And He didnt check with me.

No sin is worse than another. One act of sin condemn us. Nobody is Righteous. The Homosexual is not a bigger sinner than anyone else because we all have sin, and we all fall short. I have been clear on this.

But through the Blood of Jesus we are all forgiven of our sin. When we confess our sin and accept Him as our Lord and Savior when are Saved.

Please try to explain this one: It has been scientifically proven that a slight difference in brain structure (but normal in about 10 percent of the population) is a key determinant of homosexuality. So, God created homosexuals to be inherently and naturally attracted to members of their own sex. Why, then, is it a "sin" for a homosexual to act as a homosexual? How does this make any kind of sense on any level? And claiming "because the Bible says so" is a cop-out and NOT a valid explanation.

 

[3 to be 4]

Please try to explain this one: It has been scientifically proven that a slight difference in brain structure (but normal in about 10 percent of the population) is a key determinant of homosexuality. So, God created homosexuals to be inherently and naturally attracted to members of their own sex. Why, then, is it a "sin" for a homosexual to act as a homosexual? How does this make any kind of sense on any level? And claiming "because the Bible says so" is a cop-out and NOT a valid explanation.

first you are focused on Hell, now you are focused on homosexuality, Interesting.

By your logic, everything man is capable of doing, God wants us to do.
He created me to be capable of holding up a liquor store and shooting 3 people. Would it not be a sin to do such a thing?
Man is born with sin. We are all sinners. He created us with the ability to have sex outside of marraige. He created us to be able to lie. We can be arrogant. We can steal.
So to say since God created people to be homosexual, then its ok to practice it, is as logical as saying its ok have sex before marriage,to commit adultery, to lie, to steal, to envy, to kill etc etc etc.
Its all sin.

And it IS valid to say its in the Bible. You not believing it doesnt make it untrue.

Its more valid than saying, If God made us capable of something, we can go ahead and do it.

And as ive said, despite us all being equal sinners, the Blood of ************ has given us forgiveness of that sin if we acknowledge our sin and accept his payment of it on our behalf.

 

[nukin]

first you are focused on Hell, now you are focused on homosexuality, Interesting.

By your logic, everything man is capable of doing, God wants us to do.
He created me to be capable of holding up a liquor store and shooting 3 people. Would it not be a sin to do such a thing?
Man is born with sin. We are all sinners. He created us with the ability to have sex outside of marraige. He created us to be able to lie. We can be arrogant. We can steal.
So to say since God created people to be homosexual, then its ok to practice it, is as logical as saying its ok have sex before marriage,to commit adultery, to lie, to steal, to envy, to kill etc etc etc.
Its all sin.

And it IS valid to say its in the Bible. You not believing it doesnt make it untrue.

Its more valid than saying, If God made us capable of something, we can go ahead and do it.

And as ive said, despite us all being equal sinners, the Blood of ************ has given us forgiveness of that sin if we acknowledge our sin and accept his payment of it on our behalf.

I understand what your saying, but Tunescribe has a very valid point. Either way you look at it, one of you is always going to be wrong. You guys can bicker forever and you would never get anywhere.



So I saw this picture on the internet the other day.
It showed ten fat men sitting around a table in two seperate pictures. One was titled "Hell" and the other "Heaven". In both of these pictures, the men had very long chopsticks, to long to put their food to their own mouths. In the hell picture, they were all being greedy - trying to put the food in their own mouths. In the heaven picture, they were feeding each other, making a unifying circle.

Yeah, its off topic - stop the argueing!

 

[3 to be 4]

I understand what your saying, but Tunescribe has a very valid point. Either way you look at it, one of you is always going to be wrong. You guys can bicker forever and you would never get anywhere.



So I saw this picture on the internet the other day.
It showed ten fat men sitting around a table in two seperate pictures. One was titled "Hell" and the other "Heaven". In both of these pictures, the men had very long chopsticks, to long to put their food to their own mouths. In the hell picture, they were all being greedy - trying to put the food in their own mouths. In the heaven picture, they were feeding each other, making a unifying circle.

Yeah, its off topic - stop the argueing!

I like the cartoon you describe.

hey, as others have told me, its a discussion board, there are going to be disagreements. I'm sure the other fellow is a decent enough guy. I'm not sure he feels that way about me. But your point is taken.

 

[Tunescribe]

first you are focused on Hell, now you are focused on homosexuality, Interesting.

By your logic, everything man is capable of doing, God wants us to do.
He created me to be capable of holding up a liquor store and shooting 3 people. Would it not be a sin to do such a thing?
Man is born with sin. We are all sinners. He created us with the ability to have sex outside of marraige. He created us to be able to lie. We can be arrogant. We can steal.
So to say since God created people to be homosexual, then its ok to practice it, is as logical as saying its ok have sex before marriage,to commit adultery, to lie, to steal, to envy, to kill etc etc etc.
Its all sin.

And it IS valid to say its in the Bible. You not believing it doesnt make it untrue.

Its more valid than saying, If God made us capable of something, we can go ahead and do it.

And as ive said, despite us all being equal sinners, the Blood of ************ has given us forgiveness of that sin if we acknowledge our sin and accept his payment of it on our behalf.

The things you list are all "choices." A homosexual does not "choose" to be homosexual any more than I (and I presume you as well) "choose" to be heterosexual. These things are inherent. God would not create homosexuals unless he intended them to act as homosexuals. It's simple logic. What you argue is akin to acknowledging that we're born with a bladder yet believing it's a sin to urinate. YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Bible, simply, is incorrect.

And let me ask you: You question me for using "homosexuality" and "hell" as points of discussion and blame me for "focusing" on their examples of how and why your fundamentalism is terribly flawed. Yet, fundamentalist religionists such as yourself hammer away on these subjects time and time again as matters of faith. Why does this bother you? Do you fear I'm right? You also seem to conveniently avoid the fact that -- as far as your religionist dogma is concerned -- equal emphasis on hell and folk-villain "Satan" is necessary to sell your fear-based notion of heaven and eternal life.

Finally, just for the record, I figure you're a decent enough guy too just as you presume I am. You're just misguided and I'm trying to help.

 

[3 to be 4]

The things you list are all "choices." A homosexual does not "choose" to be homosexual any more than I (and I presume you as well) "choose" to be heterosexual. These things are inherent. God would not create homosexuals unless he intended them to act as homosexuals. It's simple logic. What you argue is akin to acknowledging that we're born with a bladder yet believing it's a sin to urinate. YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Bible, simply, is incorrect.

And let me ask you: You question me for using "homosexuality" and "hell" as points of discussion and blame me for "focusing" on their examples of how and why your fundamentalism is terribly flawed. Yet, fundamentalist religionists such as yourself hammer away on these subjects time and time again as matters of faith. Why does this bother you? Do you fear I'm right? You also seem to conveniently avoid the fact that -- as far as your religionist dogma is concerned -- equal emphasis on hell and folk-villain "Satan" is necessary to sell your fear-based notion of heaven and eternal life.

Finally, just for the record, I figure you're a decent enough guy too just as you presume I am. You're just misguided and I'm trying to help.

I think it is your logic that is flawed. Equating Homosexuality with urinating. I'll give you this, its original.

So, you are then saying that since God made heterosexuals, that he wants us all to have sex with whomever, whenver? Because, per your logic, he gave the equipment, it must ok to use it as much as we use our bladders to urinate.
And again, he made us capable of murder, according to your logic, why would he do this unless he intended for us to go around and murder each other?
Any thing he made us capable of, he intended for us to do?
You really think so?

As far as your insisting on lumping me in with your generalization of what you say all fundementalist believe, I will again point out that I belong to no denomination, I do not agree with everything that many "evanagelicals" spout off about, and I dont feel I need to frame my discussion with you based on what "they" happen to believe. Im telling you what I believe. You choose not to hear it that way. You wish to argue with Jerry Falwell and Pat Roberston. I dont fall in line with them. You want me to go off on Homosexuality so that you can argue with me about it. Sorry, im not overly concerned with the issue any more than I am with heterosexual fornication, lying, cheating, arrogance, envy etc etc etc.

its all sin, we are all sinners, and Christs sacrifice paid for it all. equally.

finally, i havent avoided anything concerning Hell. I didnt agree with you, thats different from avoiding. You call heaven and eternal life a fear based notion. I call that notion a little twisted and sad.
Heaven and eternal life is the most beautiful thing anyone can possibly imagine, almost as beautiful of the love Jesus had for us to die for our sins so that we may have our place in the eternal life with Him.

You want me to say God lets us have it both ways. all the rewards while asking for nothing. All He asks is for belief. But He does require it.

Im not selling anything. God is offering.

Im not going compromise on the word of God to make it so that no matter what you choose, its all ok.

What is exactly that you would like me say in order to not "avoid" the question.

One mans own idea of "logic" does not offer a valid reason to go against what is said in every version of the New Testament.

 

[nukin]

I think it is your logic that is flawed. Equating Homosexuality with urinating. I'll give you this, its original.

So, you are then saying that since God made heterosexuals, that he wants us all to have sex with whomever, whenver? Because, per your logic, he gave the equipment, it must ok to use it as much as we use our bladders to urinate.
And again, he made us capable of murder, according to your logic, why would he do this unless he intended for us to go around and murder each other?
Any thing he made us capable of, he intended for us to do?
You really think so?

That is not what he is saying at all.

You are BORN Homosexual - Sure, everyone is capable of ENGAGEING in homosexual activities, but you are Genetically born to be homosexual. It is a difference in brain structure that makes you attracted to men, or women. Homosexual men sometimes feel as if they are a women, trapped in a mans body, or they are just attracted because they are. It's not a choice, it's not a desision - it's a fact - You are born homosexual.

 

[3 to be 4]

That is not what he is saying at all.

You are BORN Homosexual - Sure, everyone is capable of ENGAGEING in homosexual activities, but you are Genetically born to be homosexual. It is a difference in brain structure that makes you attracted to men, or women. Homosexual men sometimes feel as if they are a women, trapped in a mans body, or they are just attracted because they are. It's not a choice, it's not a desision - it's a fact - You are born homosexual.

so, when exactly did I argue against this point?

my point is, so what? I was born heterosexual. It doesnt mean its ok to have sex with every woman that moves. I was born capable of lying, cheating, and killing. It doesnt mean its ok to lie, cheat, and kill.

a person is born homosexual. It doesnt mean it isnt sinful to act on it.

I dont HAVE to have sex before marriage. I dont HAVE to lie. I dont HAVE to cheat. I dont HAVE to kill. I dont HAVE to envy. And a homosexual doesnt HAVE to engage it in.

But we all do engage in one sin or another because we are all flawed human beings. We are all sinners. And without atonement for that sin we are condemned. ************ paid the penalty for our sin. By accepting that we have sinned, and by accepting what Jesus did for us by accepting Him, we are forgiven.