idle thoughts....pre-game observations

[fnordcircle]

I'm pretty sure that expecting a team that's gone

11-5
10-6
14-2
9-3 (so far)

to find a way to win a playoff game, and to field a defensive backfield that's better than what you could find at the local YMCA, is something that most people in most fan bases would find not just acceptable, but appropriate.

I expect the Patriots to do well because of Brady and Belichick. Most years I go in thinking we could go 16-0 in the regular season. I was even right one of those years.

This isn't about expectations. This is about fans turning on their own team.

There is only a handful of teams that I would even believe could beat us half of the time. Packers, Ravens, Saints and Steelers. And yet you have people who get so angry, who come into threads so readily to preach their doom and gloom **** - you'd think we were a mediocre team who has been ignoring issues for years now.

Mostly I think it is some people are incapable of being happy except for when they get to complain. That's a regional thing. The NE, particularly the Boston, Philly and NY areas are famous for being negative.

Let me put it this way - and I think this is the most telling aspect - if I said "It's ridiculous to me that our fanbase is more active in the media (posting, commenting, calling sports radio) after a loss as opposed to a win." most people would shrug their shoulders and be like 'of course.'

And, again, I can find nothing more telling about Patriot fans than the fact that it's not only true but seemingly natural to them to get more wound up about a loss than a win.

Sorry, but if a win makes you go 'Ok good they did what I expected' and gives you no joy but a loss makes you post 25 manifestos a minute in the GDT - you're a fan who needs a stark reminder of what life used to be like as a Patriots' fan.

 

[buile]

Back in the early 80's to mid 80's ... fans dreamed of what the Patriots are now.

Yes, I did... late 70s, I was jealous of the success Dallas had: a QB who made the plays when it counted, and an RB who flashed out yard after yard (gotta give props to Newhouse, too, for his seemingly selfless lead blocking). "The breaks" always went their way.

Believe me, I have ~enjoyed~ NE's success, knowing full well that the jealousy I felt as a young lad about those effortlessly successful teams like the mid/late 70s Dallas teams is felt by many against this decade's Patriots. This is the best it can get for a franchise during a stretch, and we'll be graced if we have the longevity of winning organizations such as Pittsburgh has had over the decades.

IMO, so many thanks are owed to Mr. Kraft for what he's done.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

That's right - Manning is untradeable unless he renegotiates the contract. Manning either gets $28 million guaranteed from the Colts or he becomes an unrestricted free agent. There's no reason for him to facilitate a trade which would (as you point out) cost his new team draft picks. More importantly, it would take the choice of where to play away from Manning himself. Why would he let the Colts decide where he goes?

I agree with Ken's original point - Manning is likely done as a Colt. I believe he will retire rather than trying to break in a new offense. (I heard someone on the NFL Network say that Manning has only played in three offensive systems - high school, Tennessee and the Colts).

I think if he's done as a Colt it will be because he's done. His contract didn't victimize him as ken opines, it protected him from being flipped for picks in favor of the flavor of the month rookie QB. And he and Luck can't coexist for lots of reasons, the cap hit almost being the least of those. Why would he come back to a team willing to forego the present for a shot at the future and hamstring him with a successor when he's intent on winning in the forseeable future? And why would Luck be willing to sit idly by when his rookie deal is already less than half of what they used to be and his second deal becomes paramount and hinges on proving himself before year 5 (when he will already be 28...and potentially a red shirt rookie who sat for 3 or more years...).

I really don't think they will walk away unless they are convinced he can't play at a high level again, because they know that while he'd try to there he won't start over somewhere else unless he's 110%. And if he is he will be extremely selective. I don't think he'd play for Snyder/Shanny/Shanny for lots of reasons (NFCE, Eli, weather). It's also going to be his offense and not some coaches kid's... He isn't going to play for anyone in the AFCE...unless it is Bill. And Bill ain't swappin' Tommy for Peyton. Peyton wants to win. If he goes on to another team it will be one that puts him in position to do that. Perhaps a JAGS team with a wealthy new owner looking to make a splash and a new HC and roster space for a couple of FA WR's who formerly played in Indianapolis (Wayne and Gonzo are UFA as is Tamme and an aging Clark might not stick at $8M against the cap with a rookie QB coming aboard). Any domed team without a QB would warrant consideration. Seattle might even be a landing spot because Petey needs a QB and would stay the hell out of his way and Paul Allen has more $$$ than Snyder and it's independent of football. NO would be his alternative dream end of the rainbow scenario because it's home, but with the tag price down around $14.5M for 2012 Brees isn't going anywhere whether they get a long term deal done or not. They can afford to tag him 3 times in a row at this rate (the new CBA has drastically altered the calculation of franchise tags and on a $60M deal Brees is set to be it's first high profile victim).

But it took Manning 3-4 years and a coaching change before things even started to roll in Indy and it took him 9 years including his prime to get a team built to his specs to a Superbowl, and he doesn't have 9 years or maybe even 4 years left. That's why it's in his best interest to leverage his clout with Irsay and remain at the helm and put Polian in the position of using the value of the #1 draft pick to retool some talent on that team over the next 2-3 offseasons while retaining the pieces that are already in place and conditioned to work with Manning. Otherwise Polian (and Irsay for that matter) might as well blow it up from the roster to the coaching staff (and the FO and scouting dept.) and start over with Luck from scratch as was the case with Manning when he was the #1 pick in 1998.

Manning isn't screwed, the Colts are caught between a rock and a hard place. If they let him walk and it turns out he can still play I wouldn't want to be Bill Polian or Jim Irsay for the next 3-4 seasons unless Andrew Luck is actually a better prospect than Manning... Cause he's going to have a lot less to work with than Manning did out of the gate both in existing talent and coaching expertise. The guys who helped him develop that offense and who built a functional defense to coexist with his need for offensive weapons and even the scouts who identified his weapons are long gone and their replacements aren't in remotely the same league as the last 3 drafts and 2 season underscore.

Before they drafted him Manning told them if they didn't he would beat their ass for the duration of his career. If he can come back and they walked away from him to persue a rookie because opportunity knocked...that attitude might resurface and bite them in the ass. He wants that last 4 years unless his condition dictates he can't have them. If it does, I think he's already come to terms with that and is relatively at peace. The twins timing has a lot to do with that. Before now I'd have expected Manning to have a total mental breakdown at the loss of his career. He's developing perspective. Probably about a lot of things including the Indianapolis FO and ownership...

 

[Gwedd]

Right now, after looking at everything that's gone one this year, I personally don't see Manning ever playing football again. I just don't.

Say all you will about being driven (and believe me, I understand that part) but seeing him on the sidelines, in the booth, holding his kid, talking to Pats fans, he doesn't give off the aura of someone who is champing at the bit, wanting to get back in the game.

Manning looks for all the world like he's resigned to his situation, that he knows his football days are done, and he's doing the honorable thing by helping his team this year in every way that he can, before he says goodbye.

I could be wrong, he might play again, and if he does I'd put Miami right up there at the top of the list, but all things considered, I'd say that this is Peyton's last hurrah as a player.

 

[The Gr8est]

Yes, I did... late 70s, I was jealous of the success Dallas had: a QB who made the plays when it counted, and an RB who flashed out yard after yard (gotta give props to Newhouse, too, for his seemingly selfless lead blocking). "The breaks" always went their way.

Believe me, I have ~enjoyed~ NE's success, knowing full well that the jealousy I felt as a young lad about those effortlessly successful teams like the mid/late 70s Dallas teams is felt by many against this decade's Patriots. This is the best it can get for a franchise during a stretch, and we'll be graced if we have the longevity of winning organizations such as Pittsburgh has had over the decades.

IMO, so many thanks are owed to Mr. Kraft for what he's done.

That's how I felt too back in the 60s and 70s.

How I wished the team that I followed could have been competitive like the other teams I watched on TV; the Steelers, the Raiders, the Colts, the Redskins.....

Not being competitive wasn't the worst problem, the Pats didn't even register on the consciousness of fans of other teams. They weren't even in the conversation. The Pats were totally insignificant.

Did you ever talk football with NFL fans back then and mention the Pats? You'd get a blank look or a submissive comment like "Why would you want to talk about them?"

Sadly they were right, there WAS no reason to talk about the Pats, only a hopelessly optimistic Pats fan could ever dream that we'd see what we have seen since the beginning of the dynasty.

Boston sports teams have given me more thrills than a fan can expect in the last 10 years, and while it was one incredible feeling when Keith Foulke lobbed the ball to Doug Mientkiewicz to end the Red Sox World Series drought, the single gr8est feeling that I have ever enjoyed as a sports fan was when Adam Vinatieri's FG went through the uprights as the Pats won their 1st Super Bowl ever.

 

[shmessy]

Right now, after looking at everything that's gone one this year, I personally don't see Manning ever playing football again. I just don't.

Say all you will about being driven (and believe me, I understand that part) but seeing him on the sidelines, in the booth, holding his kid, talking to Pats fans, he doesn't give off the aura of someone who is champing at the bit, wanting to get back in the game.

Manning looks for all the world like he's resigned to his situation, that he knows his football days are done, and he's doing the honorable thing by helping his team this year in every way that he can, before he says goodbye.

I could be wrong, he might play again, and if he does I'd put Miami right up there at the top of the list, but all things considered, I'd say that this is Peyton's last hurrah as a player.

If he was resigned to retiring he would not have traveled to New England with the team.

He's traveled with the Colts each week. Been with the team all the way through.

If he was retiring, he'd be on a beach somewhere.

 

[The Gr8est]

If he was resigned to retiring he would not have traveled to New England with the team.

He's traveled with the Colts each week. Been with the team all the way through.

If he was retiring, he'd be on a beach somewhere.

Farewell tour?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

If he was resigned to retiring he would not have traveled to New England with the team.

He's traveled with the Colts each week. Been with the team all the way through.

If he was retiring, he'd be on a beach somewhere.

Heck, look at John Lynch a couple years ago. . . .

 

[Deus Irae]

...Let me put it this way - and I think this is the most telling aspect - if I said "It's ridiculous to me that our fanbase is more active in the media (posting, commenting, calling sports radio) after a loss as opposed to a win." most people would shrug their shoulders and be like 'of course.'

That's true of every fan base. Feel free to access sport radio stations across the country via the internet and note the comparisons.

Sorry, but if a win makes you go 'Ok good they did what I expected' and gives you no joy but a loss makes you post 25 manifestos a minute in the GDT - you're a fan who needs a stark reminder of what life used to be like as a Patriots' fan.

Sorry, but if you're a fan who thinks it's noteworthy that a Brady led team that's coming off of a 14-2 season was able to beat the K.C. Palkos you're a fan who needs a lot of therapy.

As for the GDT, the Chicken Littles may go over the top, but so do a lot of those on the other side of the pessimism/optimism scale.

 

[Joker]

my humble pregame observation...Pats are 2-6 historically versus the Redskins...they have NEVER won in Washington...the Skins can rush the passer...the field is a mess, perhaps an equalizer offensively...I do not like the Patriots chances considering the state of the secondary, especially if Slater is used extensively again. A turnover or two early could swing the game in Washington's favor the rest of the day.

On the other side of the coin, the Pats jump out to a two TD lead early and the Skins should fold...they have nothing to play for but a paycheck now.

Tough game to figure.

 

[reflexblue]

Yes, I did... late 70s, I was jealous of the success Dallas had: a QB who made the plays when it counted, and an RB who flashed out yard after yard (gotta give props to Newhouse, too, for his seemingly selfless lead blocking). "The breaks" always went their way.

Believe me, I have ~enjoyed~ NE's success, knowing full well that the jealousy I felt as a young lad about those effortlessly successful teams like the mid/late 70s Dallas teams is felt by many against this decade's Patriots. This is the best it can get for a franchise during a stretch, and we'll be graced if we have the longevity of winning organizations such as Pittsburgh has had over the decades.

IMO, so many thanks are owed to Mr. Kraft for what he's done.

Here, here, I've bee following the Pats since the early 1970's. What we've been watching for the last 10 years is imo a once in a life time, or at least a once in a generation situation. Recently ive been critical of some of the personel moves of the team because i realize I/We may Never see a period of success like this again, and i want the team to get as much out of the opportunity as possible. And i think many others feel the same way.

 

[RayClay]

I have to laugh at posters who explain why it's good to be an annoying, negative person.

 

[reflexblue]

I have to laugh at posters who explain why it's good to be an annoying, negative person.

I also have a good laugh at all the obnoxious Kool Aid Guzzling Suck Up's beating their chests about aobut being blind homers.

 

[Kasmir]

San Francisco. He can hold the fort until Tommy gets there.

 

[RayClay]

I also have a good laugh at all the obnoxious Kool Aid Guzzling Suck Up's

Well, I'll enjoy being 9-3 and look forward to the playoffs.

If someone has to be bitter and miserable because we won a few championships, that's certainly their right. I just prefer to enjoy the season.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

IMO ZERO chance Peyton and Luck are on the same team next year

It's retirement or possibly a move to the Titans or Jags for Manning.....I say this because division opponents F.O.s have a tendency to push hard for a well known player in thier own division.

Gabbert has been under the gun already in his early career and some don't think he is going to be much.....Hasslebeck is getting old

 

[patfanken]

Here, here, I've bee following the Pats since the early 1970's. What we've been watching for the last 10 years is imo a once in a life time, or at least a once in a generation situation. Recently ive been critical of some of the personel moves of the team because i realize I/We may Never see a period of success like this again, and i want the team to get as much out of the opportunity as possible. And i think many others feel the same way.

I think its easy to be critical of the team for some of its personnel moves. The Steelers have added 3 solid WRs, all picked AFTER the Pats picked different WRs. Other teams have added pass rushers that have seem to work out better than the pass rushers the Pats picked earlier. Still others have picked DBs that have thus far worked out better.

See its easy when you look at it in a vacuum. What we fail to see is the relative success of the team over a VERY LONG period of time, DESPITE the moves that drive us all crazy. What we fail to recognize is the overall talent of EVERY ONE who plays in the league. They are all superior athletes who are all subject to a level of training, coaching, and nutrition that is almost beyond comprehension when compared to what players of my generation went through. So even though these guys may be "scrubs" from our uninformed point of view, it doesn't diminish their talents.

Finally I think it should be brought up.....again.....that over the past 12 years of Bill's tenure wiith the Pats, virtually NONE of his defensive teams have excelled in total yards allowed. I can think of only one team during this era that was in the top 10 in total yards (2007). Maybe there was another, but the point is that NONE of us should be surprised that the defense lags behind most of the rest of the league. Granted we usually aren't this bad, but the gap between our scoring D and our yardage D is pretty similar. IIRC we usually rank about 15-20 spots better in scoring D than we are in total yardage D over the years. I would hope that a stat geek can back me up on this impression.

I'm sure that doesn't make people feel better, because its NOT good, or where we want it to be. BUT it should help explain it better. People might wish for the kind of defense that teams like the Ravens put on the field on a regular basis, BUT would you trade that defense for the win/loss record over the same period of time? I don't THINK so!?

This is Bill's style. Its been consistent.....AND its been successful.....WILDLY successful.

 

[reflexblue]

Well, I'll enjoy being 9-3 and look forward to the playoffs.

If someone has to be bitter and miserable because we won a few championships, that's certainly their right. I just prefer to enjoy the season.

I have never once said that i didn't enjoy being 9-3 or 6-3 or 5-2, haven't said anything for quite awhile because i said how i felt earlier in the season. I'm not going to come on here and beat it to death....doing so Would be annoying, i made my point back in Oct. As far as being bitter i have no idea where you get that out of what i posted, saying i've been critical or concerned about personel moves does not equate to being bitter or not enjoying this season.

 

[supafly]

I'm thinking that the Colts would be lucky to get a 3rd or 4th for him.

I'm not sure why you would think that, but that is a very interesting viewpoint. 6 months ago we the majority of the media were having debates as to whether Manning or Brady was a better QB...now he had an injury that kept him out for the entire season, and he's only worth a 3rd or 4th rounder???

I would be willing to wager a lot of money that there are a handful of teams out there that would be more than willing to risk one of their 1st round picks on having a sure-fire, proven HOF QB...

Let's remember than Manning just re-upped his deal right before news of his injury. The only possible way he returns to football is if his surgery etc has allowed him to compete again, I don't think there's too much grey area for teams to ponder regarding his health. If he returns and can throw the football, he is instantly one of the top 5 QB's in the NFL.

Considering that there are a ton of 1st round busts every year, I am quite certain that there would be some interested parties willing to make their team a hell of a lot better by giving up a 1st round pick for a guy like Peyton Manning. Not only does he instantly make you a competitor, but he also draws a ton of attention, instant respect for your team, and increased ticket sales. The position of QB is by far the most important one in the NFL. When teams consistantly take QB's such as Blaine Gabbart with a 1st round pick, I am sure that they'd certainly consider taking Peyton Manning

With a super quick release + being a pure pocket passer, I wouldn't see any reason to believe that he couldn't easily play another 3-4 years, possibly even 4-5 years at a pretty high level.

 

[Gwedd]

If he was resigned to retiring he would not have traveled to New England with the team.

He's traveled with the Colts each week. Been with the team all the way through.

If he was retiring, he'd be on a beach somewhere.

That's because, as I said, he's doing the honorable thing and doing whatever he can from the sidelines/booth/etc to help his team win, and to help whoever is in at QB.

Yeah, Peyton could've stayed at home and collected his money, but he isn't that kind of player. He's making his exit gracefully, IMHO, and I think it says a great deal about him as a man and as a player.

It's true that I could be wrong. I admit that right up front. He might try and carry on like Montana and Favre and others, but I just don't see it in his case. We'll see what happens next year, but right now, in my opinion only, he's seen the end and he's accepted it.