The Reputation of our defense

[andrewgarrr]

No, but it's not because of where they were drafted. I don't have any problem with the talent statement, but your way of trying to show it is garbage.

Yeah it's pretty stupid.

Let's do it this way:

Combine the best players on the 2011 defense and the 2004 defense. Who would you start?

DE: Seymour
NT: Wilfork
DE: Warren
OLB: Vrabel
ILB: Bruschi
ILB: Mayo
OLB: McGinest
SS: Seymour
FS: Wilson
CB: Law
CB: Samuel

Only Mayo and Wilfork (who played in the 2004 defense) would cross over. Chung plays SS.

 

[randomk1]

The point is that teams change over time. Why are we talking about how much worse the defense has gotten rather than how much better the offense has gotten? Both are true.

That's not stupid you're replying too, it's logic.

I'd take the 04 offense over any we have had in recent years.

Balanced attack with Corey Dillon,better OC,clutch receivers,OL that doesn't **** the bed when it counts.

 

[RayClay]

No, but it's not because of where they were drafted. I don't have any problem with the talent statement, but your way of trying to show it is garbage.

It's mostly because the core of that defense was at their peak and had played together 8-10 years.

By the way, I don't know why you have Ty Law on the 2004 champs since he missed the last nine games and the playoffs. Hank Poteat and Randall Gay weren't exactly pro bowlers.

That was the fourth Super Bowl season for Law Bruschi and McGinest, third for Vrabel.

Is someone really arguing our current defense is better than 2004? lol. It's the defense we have. No reason to believe we can't win if we play better when it counts, but our offense is currently our best feature, same as N.O. and Green Bay.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's mostly because the core of that defense was at their peak and had played together 8-10 years.

It's mostly because those players were much better players, some of whom had a great deal of experience, but others of whom did not.

 

[sly24]

We used to be known as the gritty, clutch, hard nosed physical Defense who always knew how to come up with the big play when it mattered. It was such a treat to watch. In just 4 years(since 2007), our reputation has now diminished to the point where every fan, expert, coach in America laughs at our defense. It is now considered the very worst in the NFL. It's "New England's defense sucks". Just tonight on NFL Network, one guy said how Tim Tebow hasn't faced a Belichick led defense yet, and our very own Willie McGinist interrupted and said "Well this Belichick defense is not good.(he laughs). Not good at all." Hearing that just made me shake my head. How is it that the best defensive minded coach in NFL history, could let a defense go from top 5, to a bottom 5 D? This was the guy who coached that amazing Giants Defense in the late 1980s. The man who coached/developed the greatest defensive player of all time...Lawrence Taylor. The man who coached the amazing New England D during the Dynasty years. How could he possibly have let this happen? With all those draft picks? What is Belichick's philosophy when it comes to drafting defensive talent? What traits does he look for in defensive players?

I think it says a lot about coaching when we play all these anonymous guys and still have a top 10 defense (points allowed). A coach can only do so much though. The guys we had pre 2008 were not only good at playing their positions but also had the intangibles. They came up big when needed (fumble, sack, interception). That is unfortunately something you can't really know when you draft a player. Rodney was arguably THE playmaker and the spark of that defense. BB prepared to replace him (drafting Meriweather) but it didn't work out so now we have to start all over again at safety.

Also, if 2010 McCourty could finally show up, I think we'd be ok at corner. It's basically the safeties that are killing us.

I think this week against the Colts the defense played very well. We were up 31-3 I think when our offense decided to have like 3 straight 3 and outs. That doesn't exactly help a defense during garbage time.

 

[RayClay]

Yeah, let's compare a full healthy 2004 defense to the 2011 defense at it's second lowest point! Dowling healthy takes off 6 rounds, Chung back takes off 3-5, Spikes takes off 2. That's half the difference right there.


Maybe we should look at things in reverse, and figure out why the 2003 offense was putting up 30% fewer points than it is now.

I wonder how long the Yankees have been complaining they really aren't as good as that '27 offense?

Dimaggio, Mantle, Maris, yeah, yeah, it just ain't the same.

 

[sly24]

Yeah it's pretty stupid.

Let's do it this way:

Combine the best players on the 2011 defense and the 2004 defense. Who would you start?

DE: Seymour
NT: Wilfork
DE: Warren
OLB: Vrabel
ILB: Bruschi
ILB: Mayo
OLB: McGinest
SS: Seymour
FS: Wilson
CB: Law
CB: Samuel

Only Mayo and Wilfork (who played in the 2004 defense) would cross over. Chung plays SS.

wait, you have Seymour starting at SS over Rodney? hahaha I'm just messing with you.

 

[RayClay]

It's mostly because those players were much better players, some of whom had a great deal of experience, but others of whom did not.

I strongly disagree. You think an undersized situational rusher playing inside linebacker would suffice? That's all Bruschi was at first.

It is an absolute fact that the great teams consisted of players who had played together for a while and developed a rapport, as well as having developed their individual talents. Of course a real lot of people here agree with you that all you need to do is put a bunch of high draft choices on the field and you'll win.

I don't. I believe in team sports, teamwork and great coaching.

 

[Deus Irae]

I strongly disagree. You think an undersized situational rusher playing inside linebacker would suffice? That's all Bruschi was at first.

It is an absolute fact that the great teams consisted of players who had played together for a while and developed a rapport, as well as having developed their individual talents. Of course a real lot of people here agree with you that all you need to do is put a bunch of high draft choices on the field and you'll win.

I don't. I believe in team sports, teamwork and great coaching.

Seymour was not an undersized situational rusher.

Washington/Wilfork was not an undersized situational rusher.

Pfifer/Cox/Colvin/Harrison etc... hadn't been with the team for 8 years.

Etc... Etc.... Etc....


And your attempt to categorize my argument on this topic (high draft choices only, as opposed to teamwork and coaching) is pretty much completely wrong, as most of your attempts have been of late.

Brady's a 6th round pick. I'm not asking for him to be replaced by Eli Manning.


Yours was a very amusing post, though, given your earlier position on BB's lack of high draft pick usage for linebackers.

 

[JMarr]

We used to be known as the gritty, clutch, hard nosed physical Defense who always knew how to come up with the big play when it mattered. It was such a treat to watch. In just 4 years(since 2007), our reputation has now diminished to the point where every fan, expert, coach in America laughs at our defense. It is now considered the very worst in the NFL. It's "New England's defense sucks". Just tonight on NFL Network, one guy said how Tim Tebow hasn't faced a Belichick led defense yet, and our very own Willie McGinist interrupted and said "Well this Belichick defense is not good.(he laughs). Not good at all." Hearing that just made me shake my head. How is it that the best defensive minded coach in NFL history, could let a defense go from top 5, to a bottom 5 D? This was the guy who coached that amazing Giants Defense in the late 1980s. The man who coached/developed the greatest defensive player of all time...Lawrence Taylor. The man who coached the amazing New England D during the Dynasty years. How could he possibly have let this happen? With all those draft picks? What is Belichick's philosophy when it comes to drafting defensive talent? What traits does he look for in defensive players?

1. Lack of a defensive coordinator

2. No coach can possibly stay ahead of the curve for 20 years straight in terms of trying to stop evolving offensive schemes and rules that change

3. (related to #1) Generally I don't think players respect BB (or many coaches for that matter) as much as they used to, resulting in the need for BB to constantly cut talented players, as well as draft certain types of players in the interests of controlling the lockerroom and keeping it team-oriented. The SB defenses were so successful because he had leaders like Rodney, McGinest, Vrabel and Bruschi keeping the more selfish players in line, not to mention Crenell who played a huge part.

 

[ATippett56]

In just 4 years(since 2007), our reputation has now diminished to the point where every fan, expert, coach in America laughs at our defense. It is now considered the very worst in the NFL. It's "New England's defense sucks". Just tonight on NFL Network, one guy said how Tim Tebow hasn't faced a Belichick led defense yet, and our very own Willie McGinist interrupted and said "Well this Belichick defense is not good.(he laughs). Not good at all." Hearing that just made me shake my head. How is it that the best defensive minded coach in NFL history, could let a defense go from top 5, to a bottom 5 D?

Patriots beat Colts, but NE pass D torched again | Cold Hard Football Facts

 

[OldEngland]

Fully healthy 2011 defense:
DL: Vince Wilfork; 1st round
DL: Kyle Love; undrafted
DL: Andre Carter; 1st round
DL: Brandon Deaderick; 7th round
LB: Rob Ninkovich; 5th round
LB: Jerod Mayo; 1st round
LB: Brandon Spikes; 2nd round
CB: Devin McCourty; 1st round
CB: Kyle Arrington; undrafted
S: Patrick Chung; 2nd round
S: James Ihedigbo; undrafted

average round: 4th*

* undrafted = 8th

If you think Dowling would start over Arrington, you're delusional.
Maybe you'd put in Gerard Warren over Deaderick; new average = 3.5.

These players have been on the roster for at least some point this season

Wilfork 1
T. Warren 1
Haynesworth 1
G. Warren 1
Ellis 1
Brace 2

Carter 1
Mayo 1
Spikes 2
Cunningham 2

McCourty 1
Butler 2
Chung 2
Meriweather 1
Dowling 2

The talent pool in terms of highly drafted players was potentially available to BB this season before injuries and cuts. Spikes was the lowest drafted player at 62 and Cunningham at 52 was the only other player outside the top 41.

Average round 1st.

 

[Sciz]

1. Lack of a defensive coordinator

Hypothetically, Matt Patricia is named the DC tomorrow. What changes?

 

[sbpatfan]

That's hilarious, because he DID start over Arrington in the two games he played. Is Belichick delusional too? Actually, that's a bad question, because you apparently think he is.

And Arringtom should've started over McCourty.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

The reputation of this defense is comparable to the reputation of my Ex-Wife

.....Easy and no problems with trying to score on it,all you need is a little pass and you go a long way.....

 

[randomk1]

The reputation of this defense is comparable to the reputation of my Ex-Wife

.....Easy and no problems with trying to score on it,all you need is a little pass and you go a long way.....

Haha ouch!

 

[Nikolai]

The reputation of this defense is comparable to the reputation of my Ex-Wife

.....Easy and no problems with trying to score on it,all you need is a little pass and you go a long way.....

Bah dum tish!

Also, it's easier to amass talent in the earlier rounds when your team is drafting higher due to mediocre/subpar seasons as the Pats had for a couple years before the SB run.

 

[IllegalContact]

Yeah, let's compare a full healthy 2004 defense to the 2011 defense at it's second lowest point! Dowling healthy takes off 6 rounds, Chung back takes off 3-5, Spikes takes off 2. That's half the difference right there.


Maybe we should look at things in reverse, and figure out why the 2003 offense was putting up 30% fewer points than it is now.

did I miss something or was the defense at the beginning of the season every bit as bad as the one who played the colts?

this point.........is pointless

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

We used to be known as the gritty, clutch, hard nosed physical Defense who always knew how to come up with the big play when it mattered. It was such a treat to watch. In just 4 years(since 2007), our reputation has now diminished to the point where every fan, expert, coach in America laughs at our defense. It is now considered the very worst in the NFL. It's "New England's defense sucks". Just tonight on NFL Network, one guy said how Tim Tebow hasn't faced a Belichick led defense yet, and our very own Willie McGinist interrupted and said "Well this Belichick defense is not good.(he laughs). Not good at all." Hearing that just made me shake my head. How is it that the best defensive minded coach in NFL history, could let a defense go from top 5, to a bottom 5 D? This was the guy who coached that amazing Giants Defense in the late 1980s. The man who coached/developed the greatest defensive player of all time...Lawrence Taylor. The man who coached the amazing New England D during the Dynasty years. How could he possibly have let this happen? With all those draft picks? What is Belichick's philosophy when it comes to drafting defensive talent? What traits does he look for in defensive players?

It's simple. You are playing a dupe.

The mediot "experts" are wrong. Why are you listening to Willie anyways?

You are dumb to listen to them.

You are dumber to even let it affect you.

Listen to patsfaninpittsburgh who tells you that there is nothing systemically to worry about.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

We used to be known as the gritty, clutch, hard nosed physical Defense who always knew how to come up with the big play when it mattered. It was such a treat to watch. In just 4 years(since 2007), our reputation has now diminished to the point where every fan, expert, coach in America laughs at our defense. It is now considered the very worst in the NFL. It's "New England's defense sucks". Just tonight on NFL Network, one guy said how Tim Tebow hasn't faced a Belichick led defense yet, and our very own Willie McGinist interrupted and said "Well this Belichick defense is not good.(he laughs). Not good at all." Hearing that just made me shake my head. How is it that the best defensive minded coach in NFL history, could let a defense go from top 5, to a bottom 5 D? This was the guy who coached that amazing Giants Defense in the late 1980s. The man who coached/developed the greatest defensive player of all time...Lawrence Taylor. The man who coached the amazing New England D during the Dynasty years. How could he possibly have let this happen? With all those draft picks? What is Belichick's philosophy when it comes to drafting defensive talent? What traits does he look for in defensive players?

What defense?