The Reputation of our defense

[NG Pats Fan]

We used to be known as the gritty, clutch, hard nosed physical Defense who always knew how to come up with the big play when it mattered. It was such a treat to watch. In just 4 years(since 2007), our reputation has now diminished to the point where every fan, expert, coach in America laughs at our defense. It is now considered the very worst in the NFL. It's "New England's defense sucks". Just tonight on NFL Network, one guy said how Tim Tebow hasn't faced a Belichick led defense yet, and our very own Willie McGinist interrupted and said "Well this Belichick defense is not good.(he laughs). Not good at all." Hearing that just made me shake my head. How is it that the best defensive minded coach in NFL history, could let a defense go from top 5, to a bottom 5 D? This was the guy who coached that amazing Giants Defense in the late 1980s. The man who coached/developed the greatest defensive player of all time...Lawrence Taylor. The man who coached the amazing New England D during the Dynasty years. How could he possibly have let this happen? With all those draft picks? What is Belichick's philosophy when it comes to drafting defensive talent? What traits does he look for in defensive players?

 

[loloooooooooooo]

it helps to have a secondary filled with people who should be working at Walmart and the good players being on IR. The Pats D being the worst is far from true, the Packers Saints, or Bears have worse defenses. Why? because Belichick is good at situational Defense, it doesn't matter how much points you give up as long as you give up less than you score. He's been good at getting the stops that matter. How many yardage you give up honestly doesn't matter

 

[RayClay]

How is it that the best defensive minded coach in NFL history, could let a defense go from top 5, to a bottom 5 D?

All Bill Parcells and our players got old?

Hey, did you hear we got 11 winning seasons in a row and we're in line for the top conference seed?

Is the NG for negative?

 

[Sciz]

95% turnover over 5 years will do that for a defense

 

[andrewgarrr]

One word: Talent. You can only "coach 'em up" so far. BB the coach is great. BB the GM has had a recent history of poor drafting on the defensive side of the ball.

Starters vs Colts, 12/4/2011:
DL: Vince Wilfork; 1st round
DL: Kyle Love; undrafted
DL: Andre Carter; 1st round
LB: Rob Ninkovich; 5th round
LB: Jerod Mayo; 1st round
LB: Niko Koutouvides; 4th round
CB: Devin McCourty; 1st round
CB: Kyle Arrington; undrafted
S: James Ihedigbo; undrafted
S: Nate Jones; 7th round
S: Matthew Slater; 5th round

average round: 4.5*

2004 Patriots
DE: Richard Seymour; 1st round
DL: Vince Wilfork; 1st round
DE: Ty Warren; 1st round
OLB: Willie McGinest; 1st round
ILB: Tedy Bruschi; 3rd round
ILB: Ted Johnson; 2nd round
OLB: Mike Vrabel; 3rd round
CB: Asante Samuel; 4th round
CB: Ty Law; 1st round
SS: Rodney Harrison; 5th round
FS: Eugene Wilson; 2nd round

average round = 2.1*

* undrafted = 8th round

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Andrew,

Thanks a bunch for those statistics!

 

[Deus Irae]

We used to be known as the gritty, clutch, hard nosed physical Defense who always knew how to come up with the big play when it mattered. It was such a treat to watch. In just 4 years(since 2007), our reputation has now diminished to the point where every fan, expert, coach in America laughs at our defense. It is now considered the very worst in the NFL. It's "New England's defense sucks". Just tonight on NFL Network, one guy said how Tim Tebow hasn't faced a Belichick led defense yet, and our very own Willie McGinist interrupted and said "Well this Belichick defense is not good.(he laughs). Not good at all." Hearing that just made me shake my head. How is it that the best defensive minded coach in NFL history, could let a defense go from top 5, to a bottom 5 D? This was the guy who coached that amazing Giants Defense in the late 1980s. The man who coached/developed the greatest defensive player of all time...Lawrence Taylor. The man who coached the amazing New England D during the Dynasty years. How could he possibly have let this happen? With all those draft picks? What is Belichick's philosophy when it comes to drafting defensive talent? What traits does he look for in defensive players?

Take that first defense. Then watch as almost every player moves on, for one reason or another. Replace those players with guys who couldn't start on the earlier defense.


There you have it.

 

[Sciz]

Yeah, let's compare a full healthy 2004 defense to the 2011 defense at it's second lowest point! Dowling healthy takes off 6 rounds, Chung back takes off 3-5, Spikes takes off 2. That's half the difference right there.


Maybe we should look at things in reverse, and figure out why the 2003 offense was putting up 30% fewer points than it is now.

 

[Jackson 2]

We used to be known as the gritty, clutch, hard nosed physical Defense who always knew how to come up with the big play when it mattered. It was such a treat to watch. In just 4 years(since 2007), our reputation has now diminished to the point where every fan, expert, coach in America laughs at our defense. It is now considered the very worst in the NFL. It's "New England's defense sucks". Just tonight on NFL Network, one guy said how Tim Tebow hasn't faced a Belichick led defense yet, and our very own Willie McGinist interrupted and said "Well this Belichick defense is not good.(he laughs). Not good at all." Hearing that just made me shake my head. How is it that the best defensive minded coach in NFL history, could let a defense go from top 5, to a bottom 5 D? This was the guy who coached that amazing Giants Defense in the late 1980s. The man who coached/developed the greatest defensive player of all time...Lawrence Taylor. The man who coached the amazing New England D during the Dynasty years. How could he possibly have let this happen? With all those draft picks? What is Belichick's philosophy when it comes to drafting defensive talent? What traits does he look for in defensive players?

Honestly, I don't give two flying f$%^$ what Willie M., Ty Law, Rodney Harrison, Tedy B., Troy Brown or anyone else says about this defense. They're all blowing smoke up someone's ***** and they're all getting paid good $$ to do so. Right now, this defense doesn't look good enough to me to win a SB. However, there is no QB in the AFC who scares me to the point where I say we couldn't beat him and his team, particularly if we play at home with a bye. Assuming we get to the SB (not a lock by any stretch), and we play GB with that defense, I'd believe we'd have a puncher's chance, at least, with Brady in a dome. If GB were to get upset somehow by SF, I'd believe we'd have a better chance. NO, now there's a team I'd be wary of. Anyway, all this wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth over this defense and our chances at this point is Chicken Little shyt. The most spoiled fanbase in America is just going to have to wait until this plays itself out. For chrissakes, is it that hard to take some simple enjoyment from 9-3 and being the current top seed in the AFC? Wow, what a crappy spot to be in with 4 weeks left. That's it, I'm off my soapbox.

 

[andrewgarrr]

Yeah, let's compare a full healthy 2004 defense to the 2011 defense at it's second lowest point! Dowling healthy takes off 6 rounds, Chung back takes off 3-5, Spikes takes off 2. That's half the difference right there.


Maybe we should look at things in reverse, and figure out why the 2003 offense was putting up 30% fewer points than it is now.

Are you trying to argue the 2011 defense (fully healthy) is comparable in talent to the 2004 defense?

 

[andrewgarrr]

Yeah, let's compare a full healthy 2004 defense to the 2011 defense at it's second lowest point! Dowling healthy takes off 6 rounds, Chung back takes off 3-5, Spikes takes off 2. That's half the difference right there.


Maybe we should look at things in reverse, and figure out why the 2003 offense was putting up 30% fewer points than it is now.

Fully healthy 2011 defense:
DL: Vince Wilfork; 1st round
DL: Kyle Love; undrafted
DL: Andre Carter; 1st round
DL: Brandon Deaderick; 7th round
LB: Rob Ninkovich; 5th round
LB: Jerod Mayo; 1st round
LB: Brandon Spikes; 2nd round
CB: Devin McCourty; 1st round
CB: Kyle Arrington; undrafted
S: Patrick Chung; 2nd round
S: James Ihedigbo; undrafted

average round: 4th*

* undrafted = 8th

If you think Dowling would start over Arrington, you're delusional.
Maybe you'd put in Gerard Warren over Deaderick; new average = 3.5.

 

[Sciz]

Are you trying to argue the 2011 defense (fully healthy) is comparable in talent to the 2004 defense?

Like I said, injury replacements makes up for half the difference in your round analysis. That's just one of many reasons I think finding the average round of the starters is a horrible statistic.

Healthy 2004 = 2.1
Healthy 2011 = 3.3
Current 2011 = 4.5

 

[andrewgarrr]

Yeah, let's compare a full healthy 2004 defense to the 2011 defense at it's second lowest point! Dowling healthy takes off 6 rounds, Chung back takes off 3-5, Spikes takes off 2. That's half the difference right there.


Maybe we should look at things in reverse, and figure out why the 2003 offense was putting up 30% fewer points than it is now.

Because looking at the 2003 offense will tell us why the defense has gotten so much worse since the dynasty years?

What?

There's so much stupid in this post, I had to respond 3 times.

 

[Sciz]

If you think Dowling would start over Arrington, you're delusional.

That's hilarious, because he DID start over Arrington in the two games he played. Is Belichick delusional too? Actually, that's a bad question, because you apparently think he is.

 

[andrewgarrr]

Like I said, injury replacements makes up for half the difference in your round analysis. That's just one of many reasons I think finding the average round of the starters is a horrible statistic.

Healthy 2004 = 2.1
Healthy 2011 = 3.3
Current 2011 = 4.5

Sure it's a silly statistic, but it highlights the point that there is a significant disparity between talent.

 

[Sciz]

Because looking at the 2003 offense will tell us why the defense has gotten so much worse since the dynasty years?

The point is that teams change over time. Why are we talking about how much worse the defense has gotten rather than how much better the offense has gotten? Both are true.

That's not stupid you're replying too, it's logic.

 

[andrewgarrr]

The point is that teams change over time. Why are we talking about how much worse the defense has gotten rather than how much better the offense has gotten? Both are true.

That's not stupid you're replying too, it's logic.

So your reason for why the defense has gotten worse is because teams change over time?

Illuminating.

 

[Sciz]

Sure it's a silly statistic, but it highlights the point that there is a significant disparity between talent.

And using draft round is a horrible way to measure talent. The Pats' offense consists of a 6th rounder throwing to two 2nd rounders, a 4th rounder, and an undrafted player, handing off to an undrafted player, and being protected by players drafted in the 2nd, 1st, "8th," "8th," and 2nd. Average round: 4.6, worse than the defense the Pats fielded last game.

 

[andrewgarrr]

And using draft round is a horrible way to measure talent. The Pats' offense consists of a 6th rounder throwing to two 2nd rounders, a 4th rounder, and an undrafted player, handing off to an undrafted player, and being protected by players drafted in the 2nd, 1st, "8th," "8th," and 2nd. Average round: 4.6, worse than the defense the Pats fielded last game.

Ok. I'll give you that. It's a silly way to measure talent.

Answer this then: is the 2011 healthy defense comparable in talent to the 2004 defense?

 

[Sciz]

Ok. I'll give you that. It's a silly way to measure talent.

Answer this then: is the 2011 healthy defense comparable in talent to the 2004 defense?

No, but it's not because of where they were drafted. I don't have any problem with the talent statement, but your way of trying to show it is garbage.