NEM if what you say about McDaniels is correct then...

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

With all due respect of you on being on this site so long NEM,if what you are saying about Josh McDaniels is correct then that means that just about every team in the league that has has offensive productivity problems is because the OC Sucks? - That really does not make sense..I guess if plays do not go right then most times it is the OCs fault?
I am sure that on some of these teams that are even worse in scoring than us (Raiders,Ravens ect) That you mean the main fault is with the OC and not the players?
The OC does not throw the ball,The OC does not catch the ball,The OC does not block the QB so that he has time to throw the ball - The OC designs the plays and that means if you think our OC sucks then so does the rest of the OCs on low scoring offenses in the NFL?
I do not think McDaniels is a very good OC in terms of fancy plays and maybe he is not so original,but I don't put the blame on him as much as I do this year with Brady's Inacurracy and the receivers inability to catch the ball - Neither Brady or the lousy receiving core we have has yet to live up to expectations..I put the blame more on the receivers to get open and away from the defenders and to understand the correct routes to run than I do Brady but both are to blame at times for lack of execution.
Remember a few games back when on that one play that Chad was wide open down the sidelines,(I believe it was against Buffalo) and he let a good thrown ball by Brady go through his fingertips?
How about several times this year when a receiver was actually able to get open that the ball was way overthrown?
There are so many easy ways to pick on 1 person for lack of overall success but so hard to pinpoint out individuals every play I guess or maybe that it would take all day to do that.....
Our receiving core is about as bad a group as we have ever had,I do not care what the stats say about our offense being 9th best or such,this group is not a very good one and Brady deserves so much better,If he had the types of receivers Manning has we would probably be 14-0 now,or 13-1 at worst.
The receivers cannot run the correct routes and do not have the speed or talent to get away from the defenders most of the time - THAT IS WHAT I THINK IS THE PROBLEM.
Bottom line is there are all parts of a puzzle that need to be there to complete good production in a teams offensive plans,Josh is just a few pieces of that puzzle this year.

 

[richpats]

Last year I criticized Mangini all year for being a crappy DC and look where that got him...a head coaching gig with the Jets. McDaniels in a few years WILL be sought after for a HC job because of his familiarity with Belichick's system (not to mention being part of a winning organization)- I have a strong feeling he will be considered for Buffalo's job at some point. This is a copycat league and every other team in our division has tried to weaken the Pats by hiring a HC familiar with Belichick.

I just hope nobody goes after Dean Pees- he is doing a TERRIFIC job this year as DC!

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

My criticisms have been when they think they are this great running team and they decide to go goal line with 1 wideout at midfield. These runs very rarely went for huge yardage. I can see converting a first down but doing it on first down or 2nd and long didn't appear productive.

I believe Brady is most productive out of the spread formation with a one back set. I'd love to see some draws with maroney run out of this..... ala curtis martin.

It was refreshing to see several screens called last week. I can't wait to see maroney get some of those. I hope they stick with the screens. and i know it depends on protection to let the play develop.

 

[FloridaPatsFan]

No matter what happens this season, I will look back on the last 4 months with the thought that we had enough pieces in place to be a top 3 offense and we had offensive game plans that were not in sync with the personnel on the field.

Conversely, my hats off to Dan Pees who took what he had and used his players brilliantly. What he has done with a practice squad secondary should win him an award.

What Josh has done with our offense should bring him embarrasment.

 

[BlitzFritz]

My criticisms have been when they think they are this great running team and they decide to go goal line with 1 wideout at midfield. These runs very rarely went for huge yardage. I can see converting a first down but doing it on first down or 2nd and long didn't appear productive.

I believe Brady is most productive out of the spread formation with a one back set. I'd love to see some draws with maroney run out of this..... ala curtis martin.

It was refreshing to see several screens called last week. I can't wait to see maroney get some of those. I hope they stick with the screens. and i know it depends on protection to let the play develop.

I agree.
The premise of this post is silly. (And blatant NEM baiting). The mix of reasons why an offense underperforms varies by team.
1. In our case, we havent stayed with anything long enough to have a foundation. Even the dink and dunk would be a welcome approach if it were consistent.

2. It doesnt help that BB promoted a kid the same age as the water boy to OC after Charlie left. That little factoid makes our entire situation a little more interesting.

But Josh is what we have. Hopefully BB is ON HIS A** every week to install a creative and effective gameplan.

 

[PATSNUTme]

 

[richpats]

If that's the case, why didnt even one NFL team come after Charley Weis?

2003 season- all openings had been filled before SB38; NFL teams cannot formally interview coaches from teams still in the playoffs (why Mangini was interviewed the day after the Denver loss)

2004 season- agreed to be ND's head coach in December

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

No matter what happens this season, I will look back on the last 4 months with the thought that we had enough pieces in place to be a top 3 offense and we had offensive game plans that were not in sync with the personnel on the field.

Conversely, my hats off to Dan Pees who took what he had and used his players brilliantly. What he has done with a practice squad secondary should win him an award.

What Josh has done with our offense should bring him embarrasment.

Whoa down there neighbor - you're trying to be NEM-lite here. Unlike the legendary inability to function in more than one dimension that characterizes NEM-level "thinking," the comparison between Pees and McDaniels isn't a cut and dried 'one is doing a great job' and 'one sucks' assessment. A "reasonable" person would try to make some allowance for experience, both on the coaching resume and on the personnel roster with which they are working.

Dean Pees, a 34-year coaching veteran. He has worked under college HC's Nick Saban and Lou Holtz, he was also a coach at the Naval Academy (you may have heard of Steve Belichick, one of his co-workers, the kind of old veteran assistant coach who is so fundamental in developing up and coming youngsters).

Josh McDaniels began his coaching career in 1999 as a graduate assistant at Michigan State, working under head coach Nick Saban. That makes this his 8th year in coaching. Unlike Coach Pees, he had never been a coordinator or Head Coach at any level prior to being named as Offensive Coordinator here.

Offensive Players with 10 or more years pro-experience to start the season: 2

Defensive Players with 10 or more years pro-experience to start the season: 7

That "Practice Squad Secondary"

Starters:
Rodney Harrison - 13th season - 3rd year as a Pat.
Eugene Wilson - 4th season (IR) - 4th year as a Pat
Asante Samuel - 4th season - 4th year as a Pat
Ellis Hobbs III - 2nd season - 2nd year as a Pat

Reserves:
Tebucky Jones - 11th season (IR) (I think he was gone 3-4 years in NO and MIA, he's a long time Pat)
Ray Mickens - 11th season - 1st year as a Pat, but worked in Romeo's defense last year.
Chad Scott - 10th season - 2nd year as a Pat
Artrell Hawkins - 9th season - 2nd year as a Pat
Mel Mitchell - 5th season (IR) - 1st year as a Pat
Randall Gay - 3rd season (IR) - 3rd year as a Pat
Rashad Baker - 3rd season - 1st year as a Pat
James Sanders - 2nd season - 2nd year as a Pat
Antwain Spann - 1st season - 1st year as a Pat
Willie Andrews - 1st season - 1st year as a Pat
Gemara Williams - 1st season (IR) 1st year as a Pat
James Patrick - 1st season (PS) - 1st year as a Pat

Lets compare that line-up to the much maligned WRs:
Troy Brown - 14th season - 14th year as a Pat
Reche Caldwell - 5th season - 1st year as a Pat
Jabar Gaffney - 5th season - 1st year as a Pat
Kelvin Kight - 1st season - 1st year as a Pat
Chad Jackson - 1st season - 1st year as a Pat
Bam Childress - 1st season - 2nd year as a Pat
Matt Shelton - 1st season - 1st year as a Pat

Roster source: http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=Rosters&Print=yes - there is time spent on Practice Squads of other teams and such that could be factored in, but Pees is working with a veteran core in his "Practice Squad Secondary" while McDaniels is working with substantially less experience. McDaniels is doing a solid job for someone who is, at best, in his second year on the job.

I would encourage you to ignore NEM posts, even those which have a passing link to football are sink-holes of negative "thought" and prejudice.

 

[nescott]

Everyything still comes down to the Head Coach at some point he has to take credit or blame. Which will it be will tell you after the season

 

[FloridaPatsFan]

Box, I have been in NEM's corner most of the season when it comes to the topic of how Josh has done this year. I know he's as green as they come to being an OC, but thats not my problem with him. I think he was given the keys to a Cadillac and he drove it like it was a Daewoo.

But there was once a time when I wish I could have reached through my TV and choked Charlie Weis. I will give Charlie the credit he deserves though. He threw out the conventional playbook and brought in a whole new style of calling games and win or lose, he made a defense throw the kitchen sink at us to stop us somtimes. With Josh, I think he has been much too conservative with both the running and passing game. Tom Brady could complete passes to his grandmother. Dillon and Maroney were not utilized the way they should have been. I think Josh is smart enough to have been given the reigns but he is trying to make the Pats fit into "his" system instead of using the players in a way that they are best suited for in many games this year.

As for the defense. I appreciate you going out of your way to list players and thier NFL experience but with all due respect, Assante and Hobbs have been the only regulars to play this year and Hobbs is doing it with a broken arm. Replacing Geno and Rodney has been a patchwork that sometimes works and sometimes breaks down almost completely. But, Peas has done a heroic job of keeping the scoring down with what can only be described as a challenge to the defense to "man up" and get it done.

I expect Josh to keep his job as OC but if he stays, I wish he would spend a couple of days with Charlie Weis and a notebook full of wisdom learned on how Tom Brady and this offense works.

 

[richpats]

Come on, that's a cop out. Charlie was an OC, teams can talk to an oc for a head coaching position at any time, with the approval of the OC's team..and there is no reason BB would hold charlie back, and we would have heard.

Your comment is nothing but a cop out so you dont have to say I was right.

Not one NFL team wanted Charlie as a head coach.. so he took , what I always said, was the right job for him, as a college head coach....

Good play designer, good inovator, good teacher to younger players...NFL Head coach? NO WAY.

I was mistaken- assistants can't be HIRED while their team is still playing, but they can be interviewed, and Charlie Weis WAS interviewed:

http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/NE/7993100

"Weis was considered a candidate for an NFL head-coaching job this year, just as he had been last season. The Patriots' long playoff run last year hampered Weis' hopes, though. He interviewed with the New York Giants and Buffalo Bills, but an NFL rule prohibits assistants from being hired while their teams are in the playoffs."

--------------------

Just one of many differences between reality and the world NEM lives in.

 

[richpats]

Please, you are in la la land..He had ONE, maybe TWO interviews, if I recall correctly, and HE WAS NOT HIRED...If they wanted him bad enough, they would have waited and then hired him.

Stop grasping at straws..Admit you are wrong.

You said that "no one wanted Charlie as an NFL head coach" - well, 2 interviews (and what would likely have been more had he not taken the ND job) PROVES YOU WRONG!

Buffalo hired Mularkey on 1/14/04, the Giants hired Coughlin on 1/6/04, WEEKS before Weis was even available to be hired. Those teams had to get moving on the 2004 season, and couldn't look silly waiting for a guy that MIGHT take their job (though that logic would work for you).

Every post of yours that denies the truth is just a cop out on your part.

You're wrong, get over it, enjoy your humble pie.

 

[richpats]

Let me say this again, so it will sink in. Here I will use BIG letters. IF THEY WANTED HIM THAT BAD, IF THEY THOUGHT HE WAS THE BEST MAN FOR THE JOB, THEY WOULD HAVE WAITED AND THEY WOULD HAVE HIRED HIM. BY NOT OFFERING HIM A DEAL, OR WAITING TO DO SO, INDICATES TO ANYONE WITH ANY COMMON SENSE..THAT THEY DID NOT WANT HIM....PERIOD. He interviewed, big deal?

HE WAS NOT OFFERED THE JOB...PERIOD. THEY DIDNT WANT HIM.

Here's a fun fact about your favorite coach Mike Shanahan- he wanted to draft Laurence Maroney this year but saw an opportunity to get Jay Cutler and traded up to get him. So since Maroney wasn't drafted by Denver then they never actually wanted him? Bullcrap.

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/broncos/archives/2006/09/whats_the_plan.html

What you refuse to accept is that these teams couldn't afford to wait a month to start up a new system with a guy who 'might' accept their offer. Sure, do that and you've got a month to prepare for free agency and 3 for the draft while most other teams have an extra month ahead of you.

Your logic is totally flawed as usual.

 

[richpats]

If you believe all that, you are really not as intelligent as you try to make people believe.


If a team wants someone bad enough, they will wait. And, dont believe everything Shanahan says. It's not gospel.

If you believe Charlie Weis couldn't have gotten an NFL head coaching job if he was available to hire, then you are about on par with your usual brainfarts on this board. I'm sure no downtrodden franchise like Oakland would even bother getting a guy like Weis- they would much rather have a guy like Art Shell

Another fun fact- Roger Moore was supposed to be James Bond in 'Dr. No' but didn't get it because HE WAS NOT AVAILABLE due to his contract for the TV series 'The Saint'. Should the Bond producers have waited a decade for Roger Moore to become available or should they have just MOVED ON and taken Sean Connery?

Just get over the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about, as usual.

 

[richpats]

Look, every statement you have made thus far in this debate, has been properly debunked.

The one fact that remains CONSTANT. and you can not dispute it, or deny it, CHARLIE WEIS WAS NEVER OFFERED AN NFL HEAD COACHING POSITION. Is that correct, yes or no?

Dont you think yuou should take your little ball and bat and go homenow?

"Properly debunked"...what because you said so? ha!

You're out of your league here, old-timer. You're trying to delude yourself into thinking that Weis wasn't a legitimate candidate and you end up looking worse and worse with each pathetic post.

By your logic, the Pats never wanted Deion Branch to be apart of the 2006 squad b/c he didn't play a down in NE in 2006. Yes, the Pats did want him to play in 2006 under his original deal, but their hands were tied and did what was in best interests of the team.

Your logic is too easy to prove wrong! And I've done it time and time again and you're still to blind to see it (well, the elderly do tend to have that problem).

Isn't it time for you to dump out your bedpan and take out your dentures and go to sleep Grandpa?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Box, I have been in NEM's corner most of the season when it comes to the topic of how Josh has done this year. I know he's as green as they come to being an OC, but thats not my problem with him. I think he was given the keys to a Cadillac and he drove it like it was a Daewoo.

But there was once a time when I wish I could have reached through my TV and choked Charlie Weis. I will give Charlie the credit he deserves though. He threw out the conventional playbook and brought in a whole new style of calling games and win or lose, he made a defense throw the kitchen sink at us to stop us somtimes. With Josh, I think he has been much too conservative with both the running and passing game. Tom Brady could complete passes to his grandmother. Dillon and Maroney were not utilized the way they should have been. I think Josh is smart enough to have been given the reigns but he is trying to make the Pats fit into "his" system instead of using the players in a way that they are best suited for in many games this year.

As for the defense. I appreciate you going out of your way to list players and thier NFL experience but with all due respect, Assante and Hobbs have been the only regulars to play this year and Hobbs is doing it with a broken arm. Replacing Geno and Rodney has been a patchwork that sometimes works and sometimes breaks down almost completely. But, Peas has done a heroic job of keeping the scoring down with what can only be described as a challenge to the defense to "man up" and get it done.

I expect Josh to keep his job as OC but if he stays, I wish he would spend a couple of days with Charlie Weis and a notebook full of wisdom learned on how Tom Brady and this offense works.

FPF,

All I can say is I'm glad I never worked for you, the evaluation during the training period would be murder. R/Box

 

[richpats]

HE WAS NOT OFFERED LA HEAD COACHING JOB BY ANY NFL TEAM.

FACT: When he was available (in February 2004) to be hired or formally offered a head coaching job in the NFL, there were ZERO openings.

FACT: He chose to become Notre Dame's head coach in December 2004 before any NFL head coaching jobs were declared open.

Seems my facts are a little closer to the truth than yours.

EDIT: In summation, the facts clearly show that Charlie Weis was never offered a head coaching job....because there were no coaching jobs to be offered.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Stop grasping at straws..Admit you are wrong.

Does anyone else see the irony here?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Does anyone else see the irony here?

Oddly enough, though I had another word in mind...

 

[Rob0729]

Box, I have been in NEM's corner most of the season when it comes to the topic of how Josh has done this year. I know he's as green as they come to being an OC, but thats not my problem with him. I think he was given the keys to a Cadillac and he drove it like it was a Daewoo.

But there was once a time when I wish I could have reached through my TV and choked Charlie Weis. I will give Charlie the credit he deserves though. He threw out the conventional playbook and brought in a whole new style of calling games and win or lose, he made a defense throw the kitchen sink at us to stop us somtimes. With Josh, I think he has been much too conservative with both the running and passing game. Tom Brady could complete passes to his grandmother. Dillon and Maroney were not utilized the way they should have been. I think Josh is smart enough to have been given the reigns but he is trying to make the Pats fit into "his" system instead of using the players in a way that they are best suited for in many games this year.

As for the defense. I appreciate you going out of your way to list players and thier NFL experience but with all due respect, Assante and Hobbs have been the only regulars to play this year and Hobbs is doing it with a broken arm. Replacing Geno and Rodney has been a patchwork that sometimes works and sometimes breaks down almost completely. But, Peas has done a heroic job of keeping the scoring down with what can only be described as a challenge to the defense to "man up" and get it done.

I expect Josh to keep his job as OC but if he stays, I wish he would spend a couple of days with Charlie Weis and a notebook full of wisdom learned on how Tom Brady and this offense works.

Weis's 2003 offense was worse than this one with arguably more talent. That is a fact. It isn't a matter of opinion. All the numbers support it too. The 2003 offense was wildly inconsistent even with Branch, Givens, and Patten as our to three WRs.

Here is a comparison:

PPG
2006: 22.9
2003: 22.8

YPG
2006: 328.3
2003: 314.9

Passing TDs
2006: 22 (with two games to go)
2003: 23

Rushing TDs
2006: 15 (with two games to go)
2003: 9

Total Offensive TDs
2006: 37 (with two games to go)
2003: 32

Total First Downs
2006: 289 (with two games to go)
2003: 294

Third Down Conversion Percentage
2006: 42.3%
2003: 37%

Fourth Down Conversion Percentage
2006: 78.9%
2003: 42.9%

# of games where the offense scored 14 points or less
2006: 3
2003: 6

# of games where the offense scored 10 points or less
2006: 2
2003: 4

# of games without an offensive TD
2006: 1
2003: 3

People have this warped view of Weis vs. McDaniels. McDaniels gets far too much crap and Weis gets too much praise. The fact is this offense this year could win a Super Bowl with the 23 defense. The only where we did better in 2003 than 2006 is turnovers where we had 23 turnovers in 2003 and 27 this year. So we turned the ball over a lot in 2003 too. I don't blame either Weis or McDaniels for fumbles though.