My Observations Pre Season Game 1

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Butler is a solid CB for #4-5 on the depth chart!!! I don't think there is any chance of him being traded this year.

 

[nnmnmmnn]

Maybe we ought to merge all these threads into one big thread called "nothing but Butler talk". Its getting tiring. Those haters either are ignoring the fact that in playing zone coverage passes are GOING to be completed. IF the Pats played a tight man to man coverage, then maybe some of the criticism would be justified. BUT THE PATS DON'T!

I think we all agree that the Pats play a complex combination of defenses, that take full time pros a couple of years to feel comfortable in. So it is remarkable that some casual fans can make blanket judgements based on a TV feed on what certain players' responsibilities are, and how well they managed them.

The sad part about this is that there were many other aspects of the game that could be discussed and are being hijacked by all the focus on Butler.

Among those are the fact we are ignoring what a fantastic job the coaches did in preparing these back ups for this game. Considering, the lockout and just 7 padded practices, it was almost incomprehensible that the Pats BACKUPS could looks so smooth in their execution. 47 points on offense. 9 points given up on D (-3 for the fumble) FOUR penalties (which really was impressive). That's utterly amazing. Yet its not worth a comment in at least to threads its been brought up. (mine and Andy's)

Why aren't there more heated discussions on the awesome DL competition that is evolving in camp? Love, Richards,Cohen, etc ALL looked like Quality NFL players. Who is going to make the squad? They certainly didn't do anything to make BB's job easier....and what do we do about Deadrick and Brace who haven't even made if off the PUP list. Do you IR them, or just let them go? BTW I wish someone would find out how close or far away they are from coming back.

If Ridley looked that quick and had good hands, what can we expect to see when SHANE Vereen gets back on the field.....and how will it affect the RB competition.

And what about that kid Medelin, who I had no idea was even on the roster, looked very quick. Impressive for someone you didn't even know was on the team....or even where he was from.

Why no discussion on how Cunningham is doing. Is he a DE or LB. Why not any discussions on how good Ninko looks or where Fletcher will fit in once the entire defense is fielded. Is he JUST going to be Mayo's back up?

BOTTOM LINE there are many OTHER topics to discuss besides the (evidently) locked in positions on Darius Butler.

Andy's review of the game was that Price, Ridley, and Mallett were awesome and Butler was not bad. Everyone agrees with the first three. I'm not sure how this thread turning into a butler discussion is hijacking when the statement about Butler is the only thing worth discussing in the OP.

There are threads on the first page where most of the things you mention (all very worthy of discussion) are being discussed.

 

[patsfan13]

I was happy that LeVior did a good job playing guard and that Ohrnberger did a good job playing center flexibility iw what we want from the backups. Wonder if we can get Maneri on the PS?

I liked what Love ws showing he was doubled teamed a lot and did a pretty good job.

 

[Sfpat]

I've had issues with Butler since Brian Hartline schooled him nonstop back in 09. At the time I gave him the excuse of being a rookie but since then he hasn't gotten any better or worse, just exactly the same a whole two years later.

I think it would be best if we just cut him and watch the waiver wire for his replacement at the cutdown dates.

You're fooling yourself if you think someone better than Butler will be on the waiver wire. Hate to burst your bubble, but there aren't that many good CB's in the NFL. For example, the Texans are trying to find someone, anyone to play opposite Joseph.

 

[patsfan13]

Can we say that B Farnham is our designated TC binkie a la Bam Childress.

 

[patsinthesnow]

I've been an Edelman defender since day 1, but I'm sick of his sloppy play and the drops. He showed so much potential in his rookie year and in training camp but he needs to learn to catch.

One thing I learned today on this forum that Tate was a punt returner as well in college? Not a fan of tate as a WR, but if he can play PR/KR, he should have the spot over Edelman.

1. Welker
2. Ochocinco
3. Branch
4. Price
5. Tate
6. Slater

To go with this point, is Farnham good enough to be Welker's backup on the practice squad, atleast he catches the passes thrown to him. It would save a roster spot.

 

[Sfpat]

I've been an Edelman defender since day 1, but I'm sick of his sloppy play and the drops. He showed so much potential in his rookie year and in training camp but he needs to learn to catch.

One thing I learned today on this forum that Tate was a punt returner as well in college? Not a fan of tate as a WR, but if he can play PR/KR, he should have the spot over Edelman.

1. Welker
2. Ochocinco
3. Branch
4. Price
5. Tate
6. Slater

To go with this point, is Farnham good enough to be Welker's backup on the practice squad, atleast he catches the passes thrown to him. It would save a roster spot.

I'm not sure what you mean by Edelmans sloppy play and drops. His only "drop" Thursday was the deep ball from Hoyer which was thrown high and behind him. Tough catch for anyone, though I admit if he was 6'5" he would have had a better chance.

And did you notice on the next play, his crackback block on the DE that sprung Ridley for 6 yards (he flattens the DE). Didn't look "sloppy" to me. I'm sure BB noticed that block.

 

[Bostonian1962]

I was happy that LeVior did a good job playing guard and that Ohrnberger did a good job playing center flexibility iw what we want from the backups. Wonder if we can get Maneri on the PS?

I liked what Love ws showing he was doubled teamed a lot and did a pretty good job.

Great observation on Love. I watched the game live, and then re-watched it yesterday. He was double teamed alot. The kid really hustles out there. For what it's worth, I did notice a couple times when he was not doubled, that in one on one, he went down to the ground fairly easily, but that can be addressed.

On the second Richard sack, Love was a force to the right of him, bull rushing his man, and than showing a great swim move. Had Richard not beaten him to the QB, Love would have had the man (a split second later). Greg Bedard has raved about the camps of both Pryor and Love, so that is very encouraging.

 

[patsinthesnow]

I'm not sure what you mean by Edelmans sloppy play and drops. His only "drop" Thursday was the deep ball from Hoyer which was thrown high and behind him. Tough catch for anyone, though I admit if he was 6'5" he would have had a better chance.

And did you notice on the next play, his crackback block on the DE that sprung Ridley for 6 yards (he flattens the DE). Didn't look "sloppy" to me. I'm sure BB noticed that block.

Yeah he only got a few snaps Thursday, I was referring to last year mostly. I'm just been flip-flopping Tate/Edelman for the last WR spot (slater as ST), don't know who to choose.

 

[nnmnmmnn]

You're fooling yourself if you think someone better than Butler will be on the waiver wire. Hate to burst your bubble, but there aren't that many good CB's in the NFL. For example, the Texans are trying to find someone, anyone to play opposite Joseph.

If Butler doesnt get the 5th CB spot, it's not necessarily going to someone outside. What about Malcolm Williams? BB values special teams contributions, and I think that's something everyone is overlooking in all the Butler discussion.

 

[Sfpat]

I've been an Edelman defender since day 1, but I'm sick of his sloppy play and the drops. He showed so much potential in his rookie year and in training camp but he needs to learn to catch.

One thing I learned today on this forum that Tate was a punt returner as well in college? Not a fan of tate as a WR, but if he can play PR/KR, he should have the spot over Edelman.

1. Welker
2. Ochocinco
3. Branch
4. Price
5. Tate
6. Slater

To go with this point, is Farnham good enough to be Welker's backup on the practice squad, atleast he catches the passes thrown to him. It would save a roster spot.

And one more thought since you upset about Edelman's inability to catch a deep ball thrown high and behind him, why aren't you upset about Farnham's inability to catch the deep pass at the end of the first half? Farnham doesn't even extend his arms. Again, to be fair, if he was 6'5" he would have had a better chance to catch that pass.

So Edelman catches everything but a deep ball thrown high and behind him (and makes crunching blocks and is one of the best PR in the league) and you're upset and want him replaced by Farham, who catches everything except balls thrown high and hasn't shown if he can block or return punts. You would make a great GM for the Jets.

 

[nnmnmmnn]

And on that same line of thinking...

Tate, 6th receiver/return man, has more value than Butler, 5th CB.
But that's a lot of receivers if you keep slater too.
Could Williams be a replacement for Slater?

I think I'd rather have Tate and Williams than butler and slater...

 

[patsinthesnow]

And one more thought since you upset about Edelman's inability to catch a deep ball thrown high and behind him, why aren't you upset about Farnham's inability to catch the deep pass at the end of the first half? Farnham doesn't even extend his arms. Again, to be fair, if he was 6'5" he would have had a better chance to catch that pass.

So Edelman catches everything but a deep ball thrown high and behind him (and makes crunching blocks and is one of the best PR in the league) and you're upset and want him replaced by Farham, who catches everything except balls thrown high and hasn't shown if he can block or return punts. You would make a great GM for the Jets.

WTF? The Pats aren't keeping 6 WRs+Slater. It's between Tate and Edelman. Considering Farnham would never see the field on the PS I don't get your point.

How's Edelman going to see the field with 100% Welker and Hernandez anyway?

 

[Ring 6]

And one more thought since you upset about Edelman's inability to catch a deep ball thrown high and behind him, why aren't you upset about Farnham's inability to catch the deep pass at the end of the first half? Farnham doesn't even extend his arms. Again, to be fair, if he was 6'5" he would have had a better chance to catch that pass.

So Edelman catches everything but a deep ball thrown high and behind him (and makes crunching blocks and is one of the best PR in the league) and you're upset and want him replaced by Farham, who catches everything except balls thrown high and hasn't shown if he can block or return punts. You would make a great GM for the Jets.

It was the only pass thrown to him. So what you re saying is he catches everything except every pass thrown to him. That was not that difficult of a catch.
Is Buddy Farnham really worth discussing as a legitimate candidate at WR? I will give you Edelman is better than him, and that does nothing to help Edelmans cause.

 

[Ring 6]

And on that same line of thinking...

Tate, 6th receiver/return man, has more value than Butler, 5th CB.
But that's a lot of receivers if you keep slater too.
Could Williams be a replacement for Slater?

I think I'd rather have Tate and Williams than butler and slater...

Williams over Slater? Really? A rookie replacing the best special teamer we have?

 

[Sfpat]

It was the only pass thrown to him. So what you re saying is he catches everything except every pass thrown to him. That was not that difficult of a catch.
Is Buddy Farnham really worth discussing as a legitimate candidate at WR? I will give you Edelman is better than him, and that does nothing to help Edelmans cause.

Actually, Edelman had two receptions among his 8 plays.

 

[Sfpat]

WTF? The Pats aren't keeping 6 WRs+Slater. It's between Tate and Edelman. Considering Farnham would never see the field on the PS I don't get your point.

How's Edelman going to see the field with 100% Welker and Hernandez anyway?

You were making the point of Farnham over Edelman, not Edelman/Tate, which is a different discussion. I can't comment much about Tate as he hasn't played or practiced much and I don't share the board's opinion about Tate's performance from last year ( I personally believe they will keep both Edelman and Tate). Remember, BB is from the Bill Walsh school of let them go a year early instead of a year late.

 

[nnmnmmnn]

Williams over Slater? Really? A rookie replacing the best special teamer we have?

No. Not at all.

Williams AND Tate over Butler AND Slater.

Obviously you take Slater over Williams. But then you have 7 receivers if you want to keep Tate and Edelman. And you're stuck with a 5th CB (we all pretty much agree that Butler is 5th if he makes the team, right?) that isnt all that important on ST.

I haven't seen too much of Williams yet, but according to reports he's a ST guy first, CB second, and has been getting reps on ST during practice.

 

[patchick]

Yes, I guess you are seeing what you want.

We all do, don't we? Before I even opened this thread I assumed it would start with a defense of Butler's play, because you were defending it before you even saw the game!

I think it's easy to see Butler however you want because he's neither good nor bad -- an acceptable #4 cb option and a good #5. The pronouncements that he's "terrible" tend to mean "terrible in relation to the expectations we had of him as a highly touted 2nd rounder," and the defenses of him tend to mean "not as bad as you make him out to be, because you're evaluating him against your past expectations of him."

So let's move along down the depth chart. Does anybody disagree that barring injury, Wilhite is gone?

 

[Patriot Missile]

Not to much mention of Farnham. I'm very cautiously optimistic of his play on Thursday. Not saying he is going to win the the 3rd cb or 6th wr spot but I did enjoy the versatility he displayed and wonder if there is room for him somewhere on this team.

Another thought I had was regarding this 43 34 type discussion. We will never abandon the 34 entirely as many think we have better personal to run the 43. Ofcourse we've ran both the last few season so the 43 is nothing new if you've been watching.

However in comes Fletcher 2.0 showing flashes of possibly being a every day starter. If he truly is ready this turns another wrinkle in the way this defense works. I envision depending on what the offense is running, a many faced LB package. I guess this depends if Mayo will be taking snaps as a OLB or not. If so we could utilize a much more solid 34 than last year playing Spikes and Fletcher in the middle, with the athletic Mayo on the outside and a combination of Niko-Guyton on the other.With the new added poundage up front and very much improved secondary the 34 is still a very viable option for this team that's not going away anytime soon.

I'm not saying we are not running the 43 because we certainly are with theAnderson and Carter additions. The results from Thursday showed improvement in 3rd down d as well as some pressure on the QB. Only 1 preseason game and a small measurement. Certainly our base looks like it will be the 43 under but I still expect to see a much improved 34 based on the personal added this season with the result being a versatile defense.