Cap - We're All In At The Moment

[mgteich]

CURRENT SITUATION

We have $4.3M available.

We have plenty of money for vet minimum players. We have 5 not included in Miguel's number at the moment: White, McGowan, Morris, Faulk and S. Williams.

We still have to pay for Player 52 and 53, the Practice Squad, and a fund to sign replacements during the season. That all will cost about $4M or so.

So, as of now, we can sign more vet minimum players like Anderson, but no one else.
=========

OPPRTUNITIES TO FREE CAP ROOM
1) Cut players (Sanders)
2) Restructure players (Haynsworth, Bodden)
3) Extend players (Mankins, Ocho)

I think that the extensions are quite possible, but by no means certain.

 

[farn]

Mankins. That's the deal I'd like to see - because the diff was noticeable upon his return. If it helps with cap space : bonus.

Bodden. Think he'll rebound from the injury. But he has an expensive contract right ? New. Not sure how much CAN happen there.

 

[Sciz]

There are plenty of ways to make money. Assuming I'm calculating this correctly, they can clear around $3.6M by restructuring Brady alone, and another $2M with Bodden. A deal for Mankins where he gets $40M over 5 years and $18M signing bonus (same deal as Wilfork) with minimum salary the first year would clear up around $5.8M in cap space. If Chad does something like $15M/3 years, they could cut his hit by $3.5M or so. There's just about $15M in extra cap room right there.

 

[strngplyr]

There are plenty of ways to make money. Assuming I'm calculating this correctly, they can clear around $3.6M by restructuring Brady alone, and another $2M with Bodden. A deal for Mankins where he gets $40M over 5 years and $18M signing bonus (same deal as Wilfork) with minimum salary the first year would clear up around $5.8M in cap space. If Chad does something like $15M/3 years, they could cut his hit by $3.5M or so. There's just about $15M in extra cap room right there.

Assuming they want or need it.

 

[Sciz]

Assuming they want or need it.

Of course. And that's also completely ignoring the effect on future cap hits, which would not be good.

 

[Fencer]

Of course. And that's also completely ignoring the effect on future cap hits, which would not be good.

Exactly......

 

[DaBruinz]

CURRENT SITUATION

We have $4.3M available.

We have plenty of money for vet minimum players. We have 5 not included in Miguel's number at the moment: White, McGowan, Morris, Faulk and S. Williams.

We still have to pay for Player 52 and 53, the Practice Squad, and a fund to sign replacements during the season. That all will cost about $4M or so.

So, as of now, we can sign more vet minimum players like Anderson, but no one else.
=========

OPPRTUNITIES TO FREE CAP ROOM
1) Cut players (Sanders)
2) Restructure players (Haynsworth, Bodden)
3) Extend players (Mankins, Ocho)

I think that the extensions are quite possible, but by no means certain.

Umm.. If they "restructure" Haynesworth's contract in any way, they lose the leverage they have of being able to cut him without losing any cap space.

Is it possible? Yes. Probable? Not until late in the season or in the off-season, imho.

I also don't see them cutting Sanders.

IMHO, Mankins and Chad are the two most likely areas since they can be done with the least impact, roster wise.

 

[patriotscpfc]

Umm.. If they "restructure" Haynesworth's contract in any way, they lose the leverage they have of being able to cut him without losing any cap space.

Is it possible? Yes. Probable? Not until late in the season or in the off-season, imho.

I also don't see them cutting Sanders.

IMHO, Mankins and Chad are the two most likely areas since they can be done with the least impact, roster wise.

Agree.

Sanders isn't going anywhere and Logan/Chad are the 2 most likely to win as well

 

[MoLewisrocks]

CURRENT SITUATION

We have $4.3M available.

We have plenty of money for vet minimum players. We have 5 not included in Miguel's number at the moment: White, McGowan, Morris, Faulk and S. Williams.

We still have to pay for Player 52 and 53, the Practice Squad, and a fund to sign replacements during the season. That all will cost about $4M or so.

So, as of now, we can sign more vet minimum players like Anderson, but no one else.
=========

OPPRTUNITIES TO FREE CAP ROOM
1) Cut players (Sanders)
2) Restructure players (Haynsworth, Bodden)
3) Extend players (Mankins, Ocho)

I think that the extensions are quite possible, but by no means certain.

Miguel has assumed that the $7M in guaranteed money Light got was his signing bonus and did not include 2011 salary. If instead it did it lowers his sb to $6M and cap hit $500K.

Miguel is also not assuming the 3 $1M cap exemptions for veterans which the team is liklier to take advantage of than it is to cut or restructure. They will likely not do that until they are sure the veteran in question is on the 53 for the duration because that is what the rule requires.

The above alone would put us at $7.8M under for practical purposes. Welker keeps getting overlooked in the extension discussion, and his should be in the works although it won't be a big saver. Ditto Branch although given his earlier experience it is likely they know they can get to that whenever, including towards the end of the year or early next off season.

The Ocho restructure/extension and a Mankins extension alone would potentially free up anywhere from $5-7M. Again, I cannot imagine them allowing Ocho to play this season with a $6M cap (or cash) hit and pending FA... I could see him projecting on a 2/$8M or a 3/$12M with $5M of his 2011 salary converted to signing bonus plus some makeable incentives.

I don't forsee any restructure of Brady's deal given his cap # for this season and probably next are right about where you would hope while his 2013-2014 caps are already at $18M which is probably higher than you would like (but then I do believe this was not intended to be his to the end deal, that incremental extension/restructure will come heading into 2013).

 

[patfanken]

Of course. And that's also completely ignoring the effect on future cap hits, which would not be good.

That's what people and especially the mediots completely ignore. Look a the Jets, for example, Tannenbaum is getting massive kudos from Jet fans and the media for "manipulating" the cap so that they could sign their own players. They completely ignore the fact that his massive spending PRIOR to this season was the reason they were in this situation in the first place.

They were incredibly lucky that they were able to cut off $10MM in 2011 dead money with the new CBA or they couldn't have done what as much as they have done. AND AS TO THE FUTURE. With all the restructures and cap maneuvering, I can't seeing being able to keepguy like Scott, Pace, OR Thomas past this year. Clearly they are hoping that the new TV deal in 2014 will vastly increase the revenue and save their asses

For as long as you can keep putting it off, EVENTUALLY the bill has to be paid. By not operating in this manner, the Pats have been able to rebuild on the fly. However when the Jets short window of opportunity dies, they will be forced to start from scratch

As it is, if Sanchez doesn't make a quantum leap to elite status this season, they can find themselves already on the decline. As it is, their DL is relying on 2 raw and untried rookies to play significant roles, while their LB's are getting up in age as well.

Bottom Line: Its been shown in this thread that there are ways to clear ANOTHER $15MM in cap space. The mediots keep telling us that teams like the Pats CAN sign pretty much whomever we choose. and to some degree they are right HOWEVER what they ignore are the CONSEQUENCES of those kinds of deals, and the impact they have on the entire roster going forward.

 

[patfanken]

Welker keeps getting overlooked in the extension discussion, and his should be in the works although it won't be a big saver. Ditto Branch although given his earlier experience it is likely they know they can get to that whenever, including towards the end of the year or early next off season.

The Ocho restructure/extension and a Mankins extension alone would potentially free up anywhere from $5-7M. Again, I cannot imagine them allowing Ocho to play this season with a $6M cap (or cash) hit and pending FA... I could see him projecting on a 2/$8M or a 3/$12M with $5M of his 2011 salary converted to signing bonus plus some makeable incentives.

I don't see any extension for Welker coming UNLESS it's a very cap friendly deal from a guy who just wants to stay, a la Tedy Bruschi. Unfortunately when age start to erode the skills of guys like Welker their effectiveness drops very quickly. I don't think the Pats want to spend heavily on him going into the future. He's a perfect example of a letting a guy go a year too early as opposed to a year too late

By not extending him now, the Pats have a year to see if there is any slippage in Welker's skills, as well as see how Edelman, Tate, and Price evolve...or not. Both those factors will affect how the Pats move forward with Welker.

The same goes for Ocho. I can't see here more that 2 years....if not just one. WR is the easiest position to acquire quality guys. If necessary, there will be several FA WRs available next season, as well as in the draft.

Its a good example of how the Pats run their cap. As long as they have and elite QB, you don't have to play top dollar for WRs. As it is only guys like Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson are TRULY worth top dollar. If you have a great QB, just "decent" WRs will be adequate to move an offense, freeing up THOSE dollars to more critical, harder to find positions.....like OLB

 

[borg]

Time will tell if BB has negotiated an altered contract with Ocho. If not, I can see BB asking Ocho to reduce his salary prior to game #1. If Ocho is just a rotational WR, how can a $6 mill salary be justified considered Branch had to reduce his salary before his arrival and Welker's $2.2 mill salary. My point, BB has some leverage (good luck finding a team with cap space that will pay you half as much) and he may use it

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Time will tell if BB has negotiated an altered contract with Ocho. If not, I can see BB asking Ocho to reduce his salary prior to game #1. If Ocho is just a rotational WR, how can a $6 mill salary be justified considered Branch had to reduce his salary before his arrival and Welker's $2.2 mill salary. My point, BB has some leverage (good luck finding a team with cap space that will pay you half as much) and he may use it

I'm good with that just as long as we're not treated to another post game one WR press conference.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't see any extension for Welker coming UNLESS it's a very cap friendly deal from a guy who just wants to stay, a la Tedy Bruschi. Unfortunately when age start to erode the skills of guys like Welker their effectiveness drops very quickly. I don't think the Pats want to spend heavily on him going into the future. He's a perfect example of a letting a guy go a year too early as opposed to a year too late By not extending him now, the Pats have a year to see if there is any slippage in Welker's skills, as well as see how Edelman, Tate, and Price evolve...or not. Both those factors will affect how the Pats move forward with Welker. The same goes for Ocho. I can't see here more that 2 years....if not just one. WR is the easiest position to acquire quality guys. If necessary, there will be several FA WRs available next season, as well as in the draft. Its a good example of how the Pats run their cap. As long as they have and elite QB, you don't have to play top dollar for WRs. As it is only guys like Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson are TRULY worth top dollar. If you have a great QB, just "decent" WRs will be adequate to move an offense, freeing up THOSE dollars to more critical, harder to find positions.....like OLB

Wes just turned 30 in May, he's already proved himself to be pretty durable and a guy who plays well hurt and his ACL is well behind him. He will get another 2-3 year extension because he's way more valuable here than his current compensation would indicate... Ocho's deal almost demands restructure because of the current slotting amongst WR's...

And while the NEP with Brady at the helm may not require elite talents at the position, just decent WR's don't cut it. I guess you haven't caught on to that fact yet... It takes a special kind of talent...heavy on instinct and intangibles. Edleperson seems like a real go getter and a great guy but he has yet to prove he can be anything more than a mini me solid backup and possible ST replacement. Who knows about Tate or Price (although the latter has apparently impressed early in camp), but if Branch remains healthy he too will be back although as I said given his attitude his deal can probably wait until late season or early off season 2012. This WR corps has nothing to do with affording anyone on defense. That's why you keep them in tact - affordability (absent the Moss experiment).

 

[VJCPatriot]

IMHO, Mankins and Chad are the two most likely areas since they can be done with the least impact, roster wise.

This makes sense to me. I think redoing Mankins and Chad alone could free up 5m or more cap dollars. And I think it was rumored the Pats were going to redo Chad's contract into a new cap friendly 3 year deal anyways.

 

[patfanken]

Wes just turned 30 in May, he's already proved himself to be pretty durable and a guy who plays well hurt and his ACL is well behind him. He will get another 2-3 year extension because he's way more valuable here than his current compensation would indicate... Ocho's deal almost demands restructure because of the current slotting amongst WR's...

And while the NEP with Brady at the helm may not require elite talents at the position, just decent WR's don't cut it. I guess you haven't caught on to that fact yet... It takes a special kind of talent...heavy on instinct and intangibles. Edleperson seems like a real go getter and a great guy but he has yet to prove he can be anything more than a mini me solid backup and possible ST replacement. Who knows about Tate or Price (although the latter has apparently impressed early in camp), but if Branch remains healthy he too will be back although as I said given his attitude his deal can probably wait until late season or early off season 2012. This WR corps has nothing to do with affording anyone on defense. That's why you keep them in tact - affordability (absent the Moss experiment).

Not questioning Welker's value by ANY means, and I think I didn't articulate what I meant by saying "decent" receiver. You have to be a good WR to play in this system, but OTOH you don't have to be a top 10 or 15 WR. You also have to be a guy who can "get" playing in THIS system. Joey Galloway is a perfect example. He didn't suddenly forget to play during his unsuccessful stint with the Pats. He just couldn't master THIS system. Its not for everybody.

Still its kind of ironic that we all are discussing various methods on how to create cap space, when in all likelihood there isn't anyone out there that we'd have to create cap significant cap space FOR. Who is out there that would cost more than $2-3MM/yr?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Not questioning Welker's value by ANY means, and I think I didn't articulate what I meant by saying "decent" receiver. You have to be a good WR to play in this system, but OTOH you don't have to be a top 10 or 15 WR. You also have to be a guy who can "get" playing in THIS system. Joey Galloway is a perfect example. He didn't suddenly forget to play during his unsuccessful stint with the Pats. He just couldn't master THIS system. Its not for everybody. Still its kind of ironic that we all are discussing various methods on how to create cap space, when in all likelihood there isn't anyone out there that we'd have to create cap significant cap space FOR. Who is out there that would cost more than $2-3MM/yr?

We don't know, and the point is we really don't have the flexibility at the moment to probe that absent creating some additional cap space which can always be rolled on into the future or gobbled up on late year extensions for some other candidates like Mayo... Managing the cap is all about foresight and flexibility and value. Early deals are always discounted a tad (and preferable to competing with the market) and often allow for greater amortization enabling this team to create cap friendly deals going forward even when they are paying market or close to it. Or setting it as they did with Tommy.

 

[The Scrizz]

That's what people and especially the mediots completely ignore. Look a the Jets, for example, Tannenbaum is getting massive kudos from Jet fans and the media for "manipulating" the cap so that they could sign their own players. They completely ignore the fact that his massive spending PRIOR to this season was the reason they were in this situation in the first place.

They were incredibly lucky that they were able to cut off $10MM in 2011 dead money with the new CBA or they couldn't have done what as much as they have done. AND AS TO THE FUTURE. With all the restructures and cap maneuvering, I can't seeing being able to keepguy like Scott, Pace, OR Thomas past this year. Clearly they are hoping that the new TV deal in 2014 will vastly increase the revenue and save their asses

For as long as you can keep putting it off, EVENTUALLY the bill has to be paid. By not operating in this manner, the Pats have been able to rebuild on the fly. However when the Jets short window of opportunity dies, they will be forced to start from scratch

As it is, if Sanchez doesn't make a quantum leap to elite status this season, they can find themselves already on the decline. As it is, their DL is relying on 2 raw and untried rookies to play significant roles, while their LB's are getting up in age as well.

Bottom Line: Its been shown in this thread that there are ways to clear ANOTHER $15MM in cap space. The mediots keep telling us that teams like the Pats CAN sign pretty much whomever we choose. and to some degree they are right HOWEVER what they ignore are the CONSEQUENCES of those kinds of deals, and the impact they have on the entire roster going forward.

Tannenbaum's a frigging joke. They'd have me starting opposite Plax if the commish didn't give them a cap hand-job.

5'6 - 147 (Used to have great cutting ability, but at 40 I think I've probably lost my separation skills - still think I could get open against Wilhite).

 

[mgteich]

I agree with regard to Brady. Yes, Miguel could be odd by $500K on Light. This would leave us nothing for signing anyone but more minimum priced vets. I agree that we might extend Welker and/or Branch, but there is no cap savings there. I see no sgnificant cuts.
=======================================================
So any monies seem to come from
1) A new contract wtih Mankins.
2) A new contract with Ocho.
3) Borrowing $3M from future caps (likely since we can borrow from 2017)
======================
BOTTOM LINE
We have $3M available plus $3M for an Ocho extension and/or $3M-$6M from a Mankins extension.

If the Ocho restructure is assumed, then we have $6M, wnough for a major pickup or two midleveal players.

I will not count on a Mankins contract until it is final. I don't see it as more than 50-50. We still might trade him and sign a guard, and still have $M-$7M in the cap bank.

Miguel has assumed that the $7M in guaranteed money Light got was his signing bonus and did not include 2011 salary. If instead it did it lowers his sb to $6M and cap hit $500K.

Miguel is also not assuming the 3 $1M cap exemptions for veterans which the team is liklier to take advantage of than it is to cut or restructure. They will likely not do that until they are sure the veteran in question is on the 53 for the duration because that is what the rule requires.

The above alone would put us at $7.8M under for practical purposes. Welker keeps getting overlooked in the extension discussion, and his should be in the works although it won't be a big saver. Ditto Branch although given his earlier experience it is likely they know they can get to that whenever, including towards the end of the year or early next off season.

The Ocho restructure/extension and a Mankins extension alone would potentially free up anywhere from $5-7M. Again, I cannot imagine them allowing Ocho to play this season with a $6M cap (or cash) hit and pending FA... I could see him projecting on a 2/$8M or a 3/$12M with $5M of his 2011 salary converted to signing bonus plus some makeable incentives.

I don't forsee any restructure of Brady's deal given his cap # for this season and probably next are right about where you would hope while his 2013-2014 caps are already at $18M which is probably higher than you would like (but then I do believe this was not intended to be his to the end deal, that incremental extension/restructure will come heading into 2013).

 

[VJCPatriot]

I will not count on a Mankins contract until it is final. I don't see it as more than 50-50. We still might trade him and sign a guard, and still have $M-$7M in the cap bank.

I see no way we're trading Mankins unless it's Ware coming back. And that's not gonna happen. Mankins is too important to our OL and now that things have been smoothed over with Mr. Kraft I think a long term deal is only a matter of time.