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What if NFLPA wins antitrust suit?


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I just saw something that said that 74% of ALL Pro Football players are at or near bankruptcy within 2 years of retirement. What's going to happen when they have no pension from the NFL because of the open market? What's going to happen when they are responsible for paying their own social security, medicare/medicaid and income tax because they'll be considered independent contractors?

I don't think franchises would be able to classify their workers, (players), as independent contractors without violating labor laws. For example they are required to wear employer supplied uniforms, do not bring their own tools to work like footballs, weights, exercise machines, etc., they have to follow a rigidly structured timeline or face penalties, and a player cannot work for a different employer.

I'm a far cry from being a labor lawyer and could well be off base.
 
Free agency worked well because Judge Doty told both sides before he ruled that he was going to rule in a way that both sides were not going to be happy and both sides agreed on a new CBA before there was ever a ruling. A new CBA deal is likely to happen before the Brady, et la case is ever ruled on, but this hypothetical is what if there isn't.

As there being a new CBA if there is ruling in the case in favor of a free market system, I wouldn't bet on it. Since the antitrust exemption for collectively negotiating television rights is not being contested, I can see teams like the Bengals, Bills, Jags, etc. content with turning into the Pittsburgh Pirates of the NFL with benefitting from the lucrative television revenue sharing while keeping their payrolls around $25-30 million a year. I can see owners like Daniel Snyder and Jerry Jones, now that they do not have to share in their individual team marketing deals like they do under the past CBA, happy to try to buy championships year after year. I am sure most owners would rather pay guys who are inactive every game $25k a year rather than $300k a year.

Both sides lose in a free market system as a whole, but individuals will win big on both sides. I think only 7 teams have to vote against any CBA to squash it. In a free market NFL, the league might not have the votes to pass any CBA. There will be a lot of elite NFL players who would vote against a CBA if a free market system pass, but I don't know if there enough to squash it.

You are comparing apples to oranges. The OP is talking about a court ordered free market system. The NFL has never had a court ordered free agency system because in 1993 cooler heads prevailed and both sides realized that a court ordered system would destroy the NFL.

The overarching point of that post you are replying to is that we all got too bogged down in the details and what-if scenarios and hypotheticals of every little ramification of there being a major change to the NFL. It will happen again that the solution in the next CBA will displease both parties. That or the owners coming out ahead (like in Hockey, which didn't work out well).

As for the players litigating in favor of a free-market system, I don't think they actually want this end. They just have to act like they do. And to even discuss the circumstances that would arise out of a court-imposed free-for-all is to completely ignore the fact that it is merely a bargaining chip for the "negotiating" table. Both sides want the stability of an agreed upon, written CBA. Anything short of that would be a failure in the eyes of both sides--especially to the vast majority of players who would be susceptible to being paid significantly less than the status quo (as you mentioned). So as for paragraph 2 above, I don't see this as ever effectively playing out anymore than it is at present. Let's not forget that baseball isn't nearly as big in pretty much all other parts of the country, so to suggest that the bottom-of-the-barrel NFL teams will turn Pittsburgh Pirates on their fanbase is to forget that the Pittsburgh Pirates company wouldn't be earning much even if they were good (sad but true-that's baseball today). If teams do well in the NFL, then they will maintain their fanbase.

So as to the question, "What if NFLPA* wings antitrust suit?", well...the NFLPA* gets leverage and it will help them get a better CBA. That's the likely outcome. If the owners are recalcitrant, then they may consent to the free market free-for-all by refusing to agree to a CBA (and not recognizing the leverage on the players part). In a way they would be complicit (something that is easily arguable). Or they could shut the league down. Another fantastic outcome.
 
The players don't think the owners are mismanaging things badly; they just want better pay and working conditions than the owners want to provide.

This will end up with the players, yet again, unionizing to give the league antitrust cover. All that's up in the air are the terms and conditions.

What would be interesting would be if, in a millionaire socialists' dream, the players just founded their own league. There would be a financially awkward transition period, as well as a permanent loss of "root for the laundry" team loyalty. But it's not a totally crazy option.

Well the millionaire socialist's dream did sort of happen. Many of the early NFL clubs had player/ownership involved. Look at Papa Bear Halas. Mr. Bear was a Player and an Owner. The trouble is that players do not remain players forever. What happens when the present band of Player/owners gets too old to play? Then there is another group of Players versus a group of former Player/owners, just like now...

There was even a former player who started a League and named his own team for himself. He was a minority Owner, was successful, and he still got fired.
 
I don't think franchises would be able to classify their workers, (players), as independent contractors without violating labor laws. For example they are required to wear employer supplied uniforms, do not bring their own tools to work like footballs, weights, exercise machines, etc., they have to follow a rigidly structured timeline or face penalties, and a player cannot work for a different employer.

I'm a far cry from being a labor lawyer and could well be off base.
I think you are correct, but I think the independant contractor part of the example was not too relevant to the overall point.
 
I think you are correct, but I think the independant contractor part of the example was not too relevant to the overall point.

No, it wasn't relevant. It's just an odd thing to wish on the players. If they were true independent contractors, any player could work for any other team during a bye week. It would be a new interesting form of total chaos. Should a team contractually forbid them from doing so, they will then be seen as employees.
 
The overarching point of that post you are replying to is that we all got too bogged down in the details and what-if scenarios and hypotheticals of every little ramification of there being a major change to the NFL. It will happen again that the solution in the next CBA will displease both parties. That or the owners coming out ahead (like in Hockey, which didn't work out well).

As for the players litigating in favor of a free-market system, I don't think they actually want this end. They just have to act like they do. And to even discuss the circumstances that would arise out of a court-imposed free-for-all is to completely ignore the fact that it is merely a bargaining chip for the "negotiating" table. Both sides want the stability of an agreed upon, written CBA. Anything short of that would be a failure in the eyes of both sides--especially to the vast majority of players who would be susceptible to being paid significantly less than the status quo (as you mentioned). So as for paragraph 2 above, I don't see this as ever effectively playing out anymore than it is at present. Let's not forget that baseball isn't nearly as big in pretty much all other parts of the country, so to suggest that the bottom-of-the-barrel NFL teams will turn Pittsburgh Pirates on their fanbase is to forget that the Pittsburgh Pirates company wouldn't be earning much even if they were good (sad but true-that's baseball today). If teams do well in the NFL, then they will maintain their fanbase.

So as to the question, "What if NFLPA* wings antitrust suit?", well...the NFLPA* gets leverage and it will help them get a better CBA. That's the likely outcome. If the owners are recalcitrant, then they may consent to the free market free-for-all by refusing to agree to a CBA (and not recognizing the leverage on the players part). In a way they would be complicit (something that is easily arguable). Or they could shut the league down. Another fantastic outcome.


So the NFLPA is trying to win this case so they will have leverage about 5-6 years (or longer) from now? You do realize that this case will be drawn out for years and if it does actually go to judgement, it will easily be a half decade or longer for the judgement and all the appeals to be done. In the meantime, the players will be likely locked out for the 2011 season if not longer and could be subject to a NFL employment system less than favorable to them until the case is settled. By then, most of the players named on the lawsuit will be former players (if the case goes to 2016 or 2017, what are the likelihood of Brady, Manning, and Brees still being playing). The motion to enjoin the lockout will take about 3-6 months to playout when all is said and done and that is a miniscule part of the overall antitrust case. This case will be bogged down with motions and appeals of the outcome of those motions for years. The 1987 antitrust case took five years and it never even reached final judgement nevermind entered the appeals process. If the players are looking for a final ruling on this antitrust case to gain leverage, they are a bunch of morons since most of them will be out of football by the time a judge rules on the overall case.

As for your baseball argument, it is completely different. MLB has no pooled television package other than the deals they have with Fox (a couple games a week) and ESPN (the same). Every team has their own television deal. If MLB had a pooled package for all the game, the Pirates would be making astronimical profits. Even know they are very profitable with never having a chance to win the Wold Series. They made a profit of $29.4 million in 2007 and 2008.

Pittsburgh Pirates win by losing, financial documents show - ESPN

Now imagine if they had revenue sharing like the NFL does.

As for wanting a free market system, many of the players do including Jeffrey Kessler who is the player's outside attorney. He was pushing for this even when Upshaw was alive. There is 5-15% of the players who will get huge pay jumps if there is a free market system. I am sure guys like Darrell Revis who has already held out once to be the highest paid CB and said he will hold out again next year if he doesn't get a new deal will love to see a market place where he can make $30 million a year. The question is whether these guys will lead the discussions.

I already said that I doubt this case sees final judgement. But if for some crazy reason it does, I wouldn't be surprised if the free market system stays because I don't know if the owners have the votes to ratify a new CBA in this situation without a serious one sided deal in their favor. There are at least 7 teams who will benefit from a free market NFL although the majority wouldn't.
 
It appears that pieces are moveing closer to show the ultimate goal of destroying what is left of organized team sports. The NBA,NHL,and MLB unions have all thrown there concerns into the NFL lawsuits when the NFLPA file a last minute brief with the 8th circut court minutes before the deadline on friday night. They all had input into the fileing of the brief showing support and concern if the NFLPA's tactics in trying to bring the league down are unsuccesfull. This will be the landmark decision that will be referenced when the NBA,NHL,and MLB all follow the same NFLPA tactics in their next contract negociations. Hopefully the appelet court relizes the gravity of all upcomeing decisions because they will shape the way organized team sports will be run in the future. Atty. Kessler has wanted and pushed for this change, and the NFL is his test case, realizeing that he will be representing the NBA in their next contract negociations.If successfull the NHL and MLB will be next. The battle lines have been drawn here in the NFL for all ML sports.
Players call NFL a 'cartel' in court filing - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
It also seems that this is not a battle for a mere few billion dollars, more like tens or hundreds of billions of dollar in the future of all organized team sports dumping into the hands of players and agent as apposed to maintianing the quality of the game experience and team operations,cutting into our experience and appreciation of the games.

The next step has happened. The NBA has filed a grievence with the NLRB to block the owners from locking out the players on the grounds of not negociating in good faith because they don't like the owners proposals.This fully before the owners even atempt to do so. This all well before the expiration of their current CBA. If that is unsuccesfull what do you think is next, Decertification and antitrust claims maby. It apears that they have learned a little bit from the NFLPA's stratigy. If both the NFL and NBA both decertify and file antitrust lawsuits forceing the owners to lockout to avoid antitrust violations putting two sports in jepordy of lost seasons, could the unions joint stratigy against the owners and fans be considered an act of COLLUSION?
 
If both the NFL and NBA both decertify and file antitrust lawsuits forceing the owners to lockout to avoid antitrust violations putting two sports in jepordy of lost seasons, could the unions joint stratigy against the owners and fans be considered an act of COLLUSION?

Decertification does not "force" a lockout -- quite the opposite, it is a measure taken to be able to prevent one. I really don't get how people have managed to convince themselves otherwise. A lockout in no way "avoids" antitrust violations because locking out a non-unionized workforce is itself a huge antitrust violation.

If the players do not decertify, the NFL can lock the union out or continue business under the provisions from 2010, both with equal legal protection from antitrust suits.

If the players do decertify, the NFL has legal protection from antitrust suits if it continues business under the 2010 rules, but actively courts suits for antitrust violation if it installs a lockout.
 
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Decertification does not "force" a lockout -- quite the opposite, it is a measure taken to be able to prevent one. I really don't get how people have managed to convince themselves otherwise. A lockout in no way "avoids" antitrust violations because locking out a non-unionized workforce is itself a huge antitrust violation.

If the players do not decertify, the NFL can lock the union out or continue business under the provisions from 2010, both with equal legal protection from antitrust suits.

If the players do decertify, the NFL has legal protection from antitrust suits if it continues business under the 2010 rules, but actively courts suits for antitrust violation if it installs a lockout.

Any organized set of rules that the owners put in place includeing the old CBA and forces the players to comply to will be a violation of the anti trust laws. And as long as the players stratigy is to chalange the anti-trust exemption the owners have no choice but to refuse to operate without knowing what set of rules they can operate under and not put themselves in jepordy of more legal damages. They will not also allow themselves to be forced to operate under the whims of the NFLPA's judgements. These guidelines can only be directed by the court or an agreement on a new CBA. Don't forget that the NRLB still has not ruled on the legality of the decertification stratigy, and the appelet court may over rule the lock out decision and throw it back to the NLRB.
Also don't forget that tha old CBA was inacted by a union that no longer exists and expired.
 
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Any organized set of rules that the owners put in place includeing the old CBA and forces the players to comply to will be a violation of the anti trust laws. And as long as the players stratigy is to chalange the anti-trust exemption the owners have no choice but to refuse to operate without knowing what set of rules they can operate under and not put themselves in jepordy of more legal damages. They will not also allow themselves to be forced to operate under the whims of the NFLPA's judgements. These guidelines can only be directed by the court or an agreement on a new CBA. Don't forget that the NRLB still has not ruled on the legality of the decertification stratigy, and the appelet court may over rule the lock out decision and throw it back to the NLRB.
Also don't forget that tha old CBA was inacted by a union that no longer exists and expired.

You're mistaken on a number of counts.

The NFL can, in fact, continue to operate using the terms of the last collectively bargained agreement in place without making themselves liable for any damages from antitrust violations. The players could bring an antitrust suit to challenge things like the draft and restrictions to FA in the future, but there would be no damages for the players to sue for.

You also seem to remain confused about the fact that choosing to refuse to operate -- and thus preventing the free agent players from seeking employment and the players under contract from earning their salaries -- entails the biggest possible antitrust violation with the most potential damages possible on the part of the NFL. In no way can limiting damages liability be a motivation in the course of action that maximizes it.

You also are confused about the NFL's antitrust exemption if you think the players' strategy involves challenging it. The Brady suit allegations involve antitrust restrictions from which the NFL has never had an exemption from. The NFL's antitrust exemption has to do with their being able to operate as a single entity with regards to selling their broadcast rights. It doesn't have anything to do with the labor dispute.

Finally, I'm not sure exactly how you think the NLRB and 8th circuits' pending rulings are relevant to a discussion of whether the NFLPA's decertification in any way "forced" a lockout. The only thing "forcing" the lockout is the fact that the players are fine with playing under the terms of the previous CBA, and thus would not have much incentive to make concessions so long as those terms are in place.
 
You're mistaken on a number of counts.

The NFL can, in fact, continue to operate using the terms of the last collectively bargained agreement in place without making themselves liable for any damages from antitrust violations. The players could bring an antitrust suit to challenge things like the draft and restrictions to FA in the future, but there would be no damages for the players to sue for.

This is not even close to right. If, for example, the NFL uses the 2010 rules in the 2011 season and there's no CBA/settlement in place, it's completely possible that a guy like Antonio Cromartie could ultimately win a lawsuit saying the NFL unreasonably restrained trade by making him a restricted free agent in 2011 (and capping his salary at 3 million rather than the millions more he could make if he was an unrestricted free agent).
 
You're mistaken on a number of counts.

The NFL can, in fact, continue to operate using the terms of the last collectively bargained agreement in place without making themselves liable for any damages from antitrust violations. The players could bring an antitrust suit to challenge things like the draft and restrictions to FA in the future, but there would be no damages for the players to sue for.

You also seem to remain confused about the fact that choosing to refuse to operate -- and thus preventing the free agent players from seeking employment and the players under contract from earning their salaries -- entails the biggest possible antitrust violation with the most potential damages possible on the part of the NFL. In no way can limiting damages liability be a motivation in the course of action that maximizes it.

You also are confused about the NFL's antitrust exemption if you think the players' strategy involves challenging it. The Brady suit allegations involve antitrust restrictions from which the NFL has never had an exemption from. The NFL's antitrust exemption has to do with their being able to operate as a single entity with regards to selling their broadcast rights. It doesn't have anything to do with the labor dispute.

Finally, I'm not sure exactly how you think the NLRB and 8th circuits' pending rulings are relevant to a discussion of whether the NFLPA's decertification in any way "forced" a lockout. The only thing "forcing" the lockout is the fact that the players are fine with playing under the terms of the previous CBA, and thus would not have much incentive to make concessions so long as those terms are in place.

Unless it is written specifically that they can use the 2009 rules in perpetude or until a new CBA, they cannot just implement the 2009 rules without opening up themselves to a lawsuit. Now the players may not sue, but technically without a players' association or a CBA the league is technically supposed to run as 32 separate entities. That is what the players' suit is all about that devoid of a CBA things like franchise tags are illegal due to antitrust rules.

Now the question would be after DeMaurice Smith's rhetoric about the NFL suing to not play games, would he potentially "sue" to hold up the season to get injuctions against the league against using things like franchise and RFA tags and other free agent activities which are techinically potentially illegal without a CBA.
 
You're mistaken on a number of counts.

The NFL can, in fact, continue to operate using the terms of the last collectively bargained agreement in place without making themselves liable for any damages from antitrust violations. The players could bring an antitrust suit to challenge things like the draft and restrictions to FA in the future, but there would be no damages for the players to sue for.

You also seem to remain confused about the fact that choosing to refuse to operate -- and thus preventing the free agent players from seeking employment and the players under contract from earning their salaries -- entails the biggest possible antitrust violation with the most potential damages possible on the part of the NFL. In no way can limiting damages liability be a motivation in the course of action that maximizes it.

You also are confused about the NFL's antitrust exemption if you think the players' strategy involves challenging it. The Brady suit allegations involve antitrust restrictions from which the NFL has never had an exemption from. The NFL's antitrust exemption has to do with their being able to operate as a single entity with regards to selling their broadcast rights. It doesn't have anything to do with the labor dispute.

Finally, I'm not sure exactly how you think the NLRB and 8th circuits' pending rulings are relevant to a discussion of whether the NFLPA's decertification in any way "forced" a lockout. The only thing "forcing" the lockout is the fact that the players are fine with playing under the terms of the previous CBA, and thus would not have much incentive to make concessions so long as those terms are in place.



Where you get the basis for your assumptions and interperatations of the limitations of both the players and owners case is way beyond comprehension because the Atty's and judges havent come to an answer yet.
Any and all owner agreed to restrictions placed on the players, their agents, and player association, includeing UDFA's or anyone who wants to say their occupational future was limited by the owners colaboration of rules is in play.
Again you make an assumption as to the limitations of liability, and the owners options. The owners still maintain the decertification was an unfair and illeagle labor practice mearly to gain barganing leverage and head off the lockout. Also the NFLPA decertified before the expiaration of the old CBA, which opened them up to the SHAM decertification accusations. So the NFL aproached the NLRB(National Labor Relations Board) for a ruleing on the matter, being that it is a labor matter. If the NLRB sides with the owners the decertification will be ruled invalid and the lockout is justified. The NFLPA went before Judge Nelson to try to invalidate the NLRB's ruleing before it even came down, and now it apears that Nelson will be over ruled. The NLRB's ruleing is still yet to come after the 8th appelet court determines it is a labor matter. If the NLRB sides with the NFL and the lockout is valid there are no damages and untill the ruleing comes down no violation exists.
The largest misinterperatation-you make is the limitations of the antitrust lawsuit, which touches virtualy ANYTHING that has to do with league bussiness, opperational rules,player and agent restrictions,retirement, ect. Any decision made and agreed to by the franchises and enforced by the franchises cumulatively. If a player wants to wear his own endorsement add and the NFL says no, violation,if a no. 1 draft player wants to put himself out to bid the NFL says no, violation,any free agent restrictions, violation, with no union representation anyone who feels like it can individualy file charges and law suits against the NFL.
You state the antitrust lawsuit has nothing to do with the labor issues, Where have you been, it is the only barganing chip the NFLPA has, and it is challenging the entire make up of the current NFL system.
The entire case could come down to the NLRB's decision, if the decertification is ruled a sham they have little to stand on. Remember the NFl agreed they would not use the Sham decertification defence if the NFLPA did not decertify till contract talks break down after the CBA had expired for a reasonable length of time.
The last two times the NFL had a work stoppage the player struck, Why did'nt they opperate under the previous CBA till an agreement could be reached? That is exactly why the NFL will not opperate under the terms of the last CBA. The owners took a bad deal on the last CBA to avoid a work stopage, and only put the problem off a few years hopeing they could come to an agreement. TO THIS DATE THE NFLPA HAS NOT EVEN PUT A CONTRACT PROPOSAL ON THE TABLE. At least the NFL has put two proposals up conceadeing many points. The NFLPA to this date refuses to discuss any compromise and expects the NFL to bid against itself with a contract till it get to a point they will accept.
Operateing under the old CBA is a violation of the antitrust laws that the players will accept because it works to their advantage. Operating under a lock out IF the decertification is ruled justified will be a violation of the antitrust laws. Operateing a lock out if the decertification stratigy is invalid is the owners right just as the players had the right to strike in the past. Untill a ruleing comes down from the NLRB as to who is right in their stratigy no one knows the legal justification. The NLRB also will not rule untill the 8th circut court determines it a labor matter in the event it does not.
 
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