Back to back GOOD wins

[patsox23]

I don't necessarily agree with NEM, but I think he has made some fair and arguable points - and those of you who disagree don't need to be taking it to such a personal place. Grow a little. You can disagree and not be jerks about it.

 

[FSUPatsFan]

I look at it very objectively, and I post and cite detailed reasons, and detailed situations...as I chart every single game...every one.

There have been some positive times this year, and I have brought them up when they occured.

But, for the most part, it has been hgorrendous, and it cost us, IMO, at least one game (Colts) and made several others much closer than they shouldhave, or could have, been.

And that's the point.

Am I disappointed in a 9-3 record at this stage of the season? Hell NO. It is absolutely GREAT to be at 9-3. There are a lot of other fans , from other teams, that would give their left nut to be at 9-3, and believe me, I appreciate it and I relish it.

But, there is no reason, IMO, that many of the games we have won, which were nailbiters till the end, could not have been managed much more efficiently as far as the offensive play calling went.

And, that has always been my point.

Because, if it doesnt change, and again, this is only my opinion, when we need to do something differently, it may be too late.

I believe that if Josh McDaniels got a true grade as to his performance this season it would be between a C minus and a D plus.

In way too many games he needed the defense to rise to the occasion to bail him out.

Even in the Lions game, after three plu quarters of very eratic defense,they adjusted, made some changes, anbd rose to the UPPER level late in the fourth quarter to allow the offense to score, on short drives, to win the game.

McDaniels has had his ass saved on many occasions this season.

I have only had the opportunity to watch about 5 of the Patriots games on t.v, so I'm not as familiar with the playcalling because usually I only watch the game on gamecast. From what I have seen, the playcalling is just fine. The only game I saw where it was bad was the Colts game. The main purpose of playcalling is to keep the opponent off balance. You can't expect to gain big chunks of yards on every play. The Defense is getting paid to, regardless of what the defense ranks in the league. If you want to see bad playcalling, just watch one FSU football game over the last 5 years. When the fans can see what play is coming just by the formation the offense is in, thats when there is bad play calling. When you call a draw play on every 3rd and long, thats bad playcalling. When you either run or thrown a swing pass to the running back on every 1st down, thats bad playcalling.

That being said, I don't care how the offense puts up 28 points. I'd rather put up 28 points with "bad playcalling" than 14 points with "good playcalling that wasn't executed." As long as the players execute the bad play calling, I'm fine with that. Maybe, the coaches feel that execution of vanilla plays is more important than trying to trick the opponent. I'm sure this coaching staff with 3 superbowl rings and and 67 regular season wins and 10 postseason wins over the last 5.75 years knows what they're doing.

 

[JR4]

pass the coolaid .... I'm getting thirsty

 

[pats1]

Sorry, but that's a lot of crap. It is offensive to those who, while enjoying the win, are able to see both sides of the coin, the good with the bad. Calling them "manic depressive" is insulting to all of them, including myself. And, quite frankly I find it to be completely out of order, moreso coming from an, alleged, moderator of this forum. It is demeaning to many people who have views, and opinions, that although different than yours, are very welcome.

No, NEM, what you just wrote is a lot of crap.

AJ's assessment of the panicking, roller-coaster crowd on this board was spot-on...as always.

 

[RayClay]

I thought Vinnie was calling the plays.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I look at it very objectively, and I post and cite detailed reasons, and detailed situations...as I chart every single game...every one.

Objective as defined by NEM = NEM is right, all others wrong unless they agree with NEM.

Chart as defined by NEM = From my seat in the Vine, I dribbled ketchup and spittle on my shirt.

Detailed as defined by NEM = I made an unsubstantiated statement, see the definition of objective.

I don't necessarily agree with NEM, but I think he has made some fair and arguable points - and those of you who disagree don't need to be taking it to such a personal place. Grow a little. You can disagree and not be jerks about it.

Sorry ps23, NEM's act hasn't changed since I've been following the forum and it is always personal with NEM. NEM attacks people early and often, then when he gets called on his swine-like behavior, he threatens people and cries that they are killing him with their cruelty.

I find the above paragraph from NEM to be an abject lie, he has just once to my knowledge, made an effort to post anything that looked like a drive chart, and those are nothing more than the result of the play called on a particular down - of limited use in analyzing what went right or wrong on a specific play or drive. That he would make such a statement indicates he can learn new terms, from the same people who have been patiently asking him for such items when trying to thoughtfully discuss his delusions of football knowledge.

NEM attacked AJ when he labeled behaviors, which you yourself have found maddening, as manic depressive. It's great that you want peaceful dialogue on this board, but NEM is one of the most aggressive and abrasive posters here, with a long history of misconduct that makes the Denver O-line look angelic in comparison. I have learned there is no dialogue with NEM, my best wishes for you should you ever choose to engage him in constructive debate.

 

[pats1]

I agree with aj. I don't think his "manic-depressive" comment is directed at ANYONE who criticizes, NEM. I think it's directed at those folks who tend to swing wildly with a pendulum off its rocker - good or bad. There have been more of those types the last 18 months or so, and they provide nothing but traffic and hysterical congestion on this site.

Right on.

As the forum continues to get larger and more popular, the influx of waffling fans, who can get very defensive, wear more and more on me. It's been extremely annoying to sift through the hundreds of threads and posts that a just pure trash and bickering.

 

[pats1]

I tend to be more critical following a sloppy win than I am even following a loss - when I prefer to look below the score to see what we might have done well.

I think I've probably adopted that from BB's coaching attitude that we seem to see quite often.

Comparisons to 2001 I think are relevent when we recognized we had a very imperfect team that simply refused to give up. But I just can't bring myself to accept the Bears or the Lions as "good wins"

"sloppy wins" is more like it - and we were lucky in both cases that the other team played worse than we did.

It's pretty tough to find a game where the team played perfect on both sides of the ball - but the number of mistakes this team has been making - even going back to our playoff loss in Denver last year with 5 turnovers - are of great concern.

If I saw progress being made to prevent such mistakes, that would be one thing, but we've not seen a positive trend in that respect yet.

"Good Wins" are all nice and fuzzy when trying to inspire YOUR self-confidence in the team, but they mean NOTHING when 22 men, belonging to two 0-0 teams line up against each other in 60 minutes of football that decide a season (read: the playoffs). Quite frankly, how many turnovers the Pats had against the Lions or Bears is irrelevant, especially if the Pats win. The Lions are done and over with, the Bears are done and over with, not to be seen again until 2010.

Wins matter right now. Not how they could have been turned into losses, but how they WERE turned into wins. Right now, this is the only statement worth anything:

The Patriots are 9-3 and fighting for a first-round playoff bye.

A.J. had it down COLD:

"If you wish to judge your team by their blowouts, go ahead, but you probably should root for the Colts from September to December, then shift over to the Pats in January."

 

[pats1]

I look at it very objectively, and I post and cite detailed reasons, and detailed situations...as I chart every single game...every one.

Show it to us, NEM. Show it to us.

 

[pats1]

Objective as defined by NEM = NEM is right, all others wrong unless they agree with NEM.

Chart as defined by NEM = From my seat in the Vine, I dribbled ketchup and spittle on my shirt.

Detailed as defined by NEM = I made an unsubstantiated statement, see the definition of objective.

I haven't laughed that hard in a while, Box. Loved the second one.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Humm could we get back on topic here. As far as the Pats last two wins, yes it is good that they won but anyone can see that they have some issues that need to be improved upon. Namely ball security. 90% of the time all I need to see is the turnover stat in a game and I can tell you who ended up winning. It's really that simple.

I think the reason that some posters have expressed concern is that the Patriots did not appear to learn anything from their experience with the Bears just the week previously where they turned over the ball 5 times. They follow that up with a 4 turn over effort against the lowly Lions. That's not something that exactly builds confidence.

Make no mistake I think the Pats are a pretty good team. And they have beaten some very good teams this season. But so far they haven't shown that they are the team to beat.

That means that teams such as the Colts and the Chargers along with the Ravens are all out there as teams that could knock us off and are higher seeded thus far.

The Patriots need to pull their act together and show improvement week after week. If they can do that I will feel confident going into January that we can take home the hardware. Right now though it is hard to know if this is truly a championship caliber team. And in New England, fair or not, we have come to expect superbowls, not division title banners.

 

[braveht]

The people who are really crazy/delusional/idiotic are those who continue to argue with a crazy or irrational person. Do you really think you can win a debate against someone who keeps posting and posting without ever changing. If you think that person will become rational by responding, I think you're mistaken.

Ignore him!!

Don't take his posts personally.

AJ: Thanx for a sane start to the thread; I'm getting tired of the complaining and whining on this board as well as the bickering and squabbles.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

I consider the last 2 games GOOD wins for the Pats. I certainly don't expect the general opinion of this board to agree with this, but I seem to have a different critieria than the "manic-depressive crowd". (The manic depressive crowd is that group of fans who overreact positively to good days---runing the table talk was common a week ago--then overreact negatively to winning, if it isn't a dominant effort. My favorites are the post that CONCLUDE faliure in the playoffs based on a win they didn't like, and the 'if this didnt happen, we could have lost, or if we were playing someone else we would have lost)

My critieria in calling these good wins is very simple. Over the first 9 weeks of the season, we went 6-3, and lost 3 games that in past years it would have seemed we should have won. The #1 characteristic of the Champion Pats teams was making plays in the clutch, and KNOWING HOW TO WIN. After the 6-3 start the primary thing I felt this team lacked was that it hadn't learned how to win.

If a team wins 6 games how do they not know how to win? The 3 losses were against quality teams. I think you could say they don't know how to win game if they have a losing record.



Every team, every season needs to learn that. Some start closer than others because of returning core players who do know how to win, but every year has turnover to every team.
Lost on the media is that a TEAM is the sum of its parts. I bristle every time I hear "professional analysts" rate a team by naming their 3 best players, and conclude that is why they will win. Nothing could be further from the truth. The 20th-22nd best player (worst 3 starters) ultimatley has more to do with determining championships than the 3 best. (And by that I mean the gap between how good your 20-22nd is vs the other team) "Knowing how to win" isn't a function of your best players, it is a function of your 53 man roster.

These last 2 weeks, the Patriots have shown me that this version now seems to have learned how to win. When it comes down to Championships, the ability to win close games, regardless of the quality of the opponent correlates much more to success than blowing people out.

We see it every year. When the Pats are in the playoffs, we look at the opponent and one of the first analyses is have they beaten anyone good. i never remember ANYONE critiquing an opponent for ONLY beating team X by 7 points.

I agree on this. At the time earlier in the season the Bengals were considered good, and then the Bengals lost some games so they downplayed the victory of the Pats. So now the Bengals are good. Which one is it? Are the bengals a quality team or not?

Other random thoughts.
Amazing that we criticize play calling when we score 28 points. That same criticism comes along with criticism of how plays are set up by the previous calls. To me, if you add up all of the play calls in the game, and they total 28 points, you did a good job. I could care less about the plays that didnt work so well if they set up others that got us 28 points. (and it would have been more without the turnovers)I think it was the fact that the Pats had an awful first half and were down to a team with a poor record. I don't think they planned to get down and have to come abck in the fourth quarter.



I have read doom and gloom posts about how the D played this week. We allowed ONE TOUCHDOWN. That makes 14 in 12 games.
Somehow those doom and gloom posters point to our own turnovers as a reason for our imminent failure, yet give our defense no credit for forcing 5. Personally, I am fine with allowing less than 3 ypc to the other RB, having the other QB pass for 300 yards, but getting 3 picks, a fumble on a sack and allowing ONE TOUCHDOWN.I think it's the recurring trend of turnovers. Pats teams of years past were known for holding onto the ball and winning the turnover battle. The Pats have not seemed the same since last years Broncos game. They have had a bunch of games with a ton of turnovers.

A curious question: It was mentioned many times during the game how the Lions have spent all season losing close games. If a team loses a lot of close games, why is it expected that you blow them out? Why wasnt a close win pretty much what was expected? There are very few blowouts in the NFL. If you wish to judge your team by their blowouts, go ahead, but you probably should root for the Colts from September to December, then shift over to the Pats in January.

Hopefully you are right, but they have to cut the turnovers on offense. This is definitely a team in transition.

 

[pats1]

You are so full of sh!t with that comment it is actually funny. You are the troublemaker, you are the instigator and you lok to start every time you decide to post in this forum. You can take it, ans shove it, because to me, you are nothing, absolutely nothing. You have given me grief day after day, and quite frankly, I have had it with your crap and l;your freaking lies...Go back to the other site you are one troublemaker and instigator of the highest kind... Have a nice day. You dont know shi!t aboiut me and you never will, and quite frankly, Iam twice the human being, twice the intellect, and twice the football fan that yuo willever be. You are NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING. Get lost, you dont even deserve to be here. NOTHING, aBSOLUTELY noitthin BUT AN INSTIGATOR OF TROUBLE..GO BACK TO THE OTHER S SITE WHER YOU CAN SPOUT ALL THE VULGARITIES YOU WANT..You are invisible now, youdont exist.

One last thing, because youpick and choose what you want ...when did i ever say i make drive charts? stop putting words into my mouth that werent said..I SAID I CHART THE GAMES...do ytou see the word DRIVE in there? Now you have done it again, interpreted something WRONG, as usual, and made a case outy of it. STOP THE LIES, YOU ARE LTHE FREAKIN LIAR, NOT ME...Get it tt right or just shut the hell up with your LIES...thats all you do is LIE...and you make it sound like fact. YOU LIE ALLTHE TIME...

Once again you dont have a clue what you are talking about or what I said. In fact, every person who knows me, from the Vine, sees me charting every play of every game, with notes and comments.... but you know better, whenin fact you are nothing but a big mouth with no knowlege at all.

Again, you have no knowledge about what you are saying, as usual. I have been involved in more debate, anbd discussion, over the yerars than you even have a clue about. You are so full of crap it is actually funny at times. You havent got a clue as to what agressive or abusive behavior is, and yuou are one of the ones that throws it out like no one else. Why dont you just go back to your other little forum where you can be obscene, vulgar and everyone thinkis it is cool. I, and most long time posters over here think quite the opposite. Your kind are the kind that always looks to blame others for what you instigated.

Yourhe instigator in almost everything thaty starts the trouble here. You follow me around, from site to site, and in your little covert manner, you just can 't help but mention the name NEM. Quite frankly I feel kind of nice about that, knowing that I bug you so much that you cant control yourself and you feel the need to come here and post all the crap that you do.

It is kind of a nice warm fuzzy feeling that you give me, knowing that it bothers you so much that you cant containyourself, both here, and over at the other place....

But, as time goes by, I wil have been here long before you, and I willbe here longf after you become a part of history.

Preach all you want, spread your vile lies, and false rumors about me, most people know you for what you are, a troublemaker of the highest degree.

Am I outspoken? You bet your ass I am. Do I believe I am right in most things that I post? You are damned right I believe it, no different than anyone else who posts something here because that is what a forum is all about, to post something that you believe to be true, and then to debate and discuss it... only its not me that initiates the name calling, contrary to what you would like to believe, and most people know it.... including Ian.

I respond in kind, and believe me, in your case, I really dont have to waste my time....But I felt that you needed a little come downing, because, quite frankly, you arent even close to my knowledge, and understanding of this game.... once again, contrary to what you think, or believe.

I just get amused reading your personal attack garbage, which you love to throw around, in such a covert manner.

One of these days you may grow up, but I doubt it. Have a nice evening.

He's the hypocrite? He's the instigator?

Get a hold of yourself, NEM. For your good. For everyone's good.

The myriad typos made in that response only goes to prove you spouted all of that out because of anger and defense, in effect PROVING Box's point.

What is this? Preschool? Does somebody need a 5-minute (day?) timeout to cool down?

 

[Brownfan80]

And, just who the hell are you suggesting is "crazy" or irrational? I take offense to that. I may be outspoken, but crazy or irrational? Hell no, not even close.

I just respond in what may seem that way to you when I am attacked by the likes of no nothibng people like Box...he is a big mouth that thinks he is cool He has followed me around to come at me in almost every post..even to other sites. Perhaps you should give some though to his crazy, or irrational , behavior. I think he needs so9me help if a person on a messageboard effects his mentality that much. Wouldnt you agree. He certainly has some sort of a problem.

You always say "people like (insert name here)". If it's me you're arguing with, then it's my screen name, if it's Box, or anyone else that disagrees, then the next person to come along in the thread is just 'tagging along' with the first poster.

It seems to me that a large group of people are in disagreement with your thoughts. It's not because they all stick together and 'follow' whoever starts 'attacking' you in the thread, it's because many of us disagree with you independantly. Which is fine, that's what messageboards are for. Differing opinions.

My reason for posting to this is simply to say that I get tired of your rebuttal argument always being 'you're just going along with (insert name here)'.. People read your stuff NEM, and they draw their own conclusions. The fact that those conclusions coincide with other posters does not invalidate their thoughts. Depending on who you ask, that'd actually be a validating fact.

Anyway, you know I don't need to reply to your thoughts in this thread, as they're exactly the same items as usual, so just insert my usual response to you after this:

-Insert Opposing View of Offense Here-

 

[Brownfan80]

He's the hypocrite? He's the instigator?

Get a hold of yourself, NEM. For your good. For everyone's good.

The myriad typos made in that response only goes to prove you spouted all of that out because of anger and defense, in effect PROVING Box's point.

He's spouted the same exact rage-filled reply at me and a host of others any time anyone disagrees with his stance. It's an old song and dance.

Anyone worth their salt knows who to listen to between Box-O-Rocks and NEM.

And the funny part of this is that Box actually DOES have a medical situation right now. Somehow I don't think NEM will be as understanding of that as he demands of others when he's having personal/health 'issues'.

 

[pats1]

He's spouted the same exact rage-filled reply at me and a host of others any time anyone disagrees with his stance. It's an old song and dance.

NEM's psychotic post from last November that got him banned is still fresh in my memory.

 

[Brownfan80]

NEM's psychotic post from last November that got him banned is still fresh in my memory.

It's a strange thing to see how NEM works. When he's getting under someone's skin and knows it he's all: "Good I get enjoyment out of the fact that I'm affecting you like this", and then when someone new steps into the fray he's all: "You're judging me based on what So-and-So says!!" as if everyone can't read how he operates. Very strange to watch in motion.

As a past participant in several NEM-frays I have to say he's even more strange to watch when you're not involved. His logic-no-logic patterns are quite dizzying.


EDIT: And it's absolutely baffling to read the exchange between Box-O-Rocks and NEM..

Nem slams box stating that he said 'charts the game', not 'drive charts', then later in his reply states that he 'charts every single play of the games with notes and diagrams.. every one!'... Well, isn't that... um.. a drive chart? Isn't that.... um... what everyone's been asking to see? Then... um.. why don't you show it to them to back up your claims?

Box-O-Rocks has been one of the most level headed and fact based posters I've ever been around. All he's ever asked for is proof of all these claims that NEM spews weekly. That's all that MANY of us have asked for. But that proof has never been supplied. Yet if we doubt the existence of that proof, then we're the liars.

Does that man ANY sense?


My head hurts.

 

[pats1]

It's a strange thing to see how NEM works. When he's getting under someone's skin and knows it he's all: "Good I get enjoyment out of the fact that I'm affecting you like this", and then when someone new steps into the fray he's all: "You're judging me based on what So-and-So says!!" as if everyone can't read how he operates. Very strange to watch in motion.

As a past participant in several NEM-frays I have to say he's even more strange to watch when you're not involved. His logic-no-logic patterns are quite dizzying.

Indeed.

...All 3 of these threads were locked, and also lost by the server upgrade last December, but...

http://208.109.107.176/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=27073

http://208.109.107.176/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=27112

http://208.109.107.176/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=27127

 

[Brownfan80]

Indeed.

...All 3 of these threads were locked, and also lost by the server upgrade last December, but...

http://208.109.107.176/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=27073

http://208.109.107.176/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=27112

http://208.109.107.176/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=27127

I actually remember the thread titles, but not all the details of what transpired, though I'm guessing it was bad by the progression of topics. lol